Official ruleset's discussion [Archive]

Spyder

10-02-2011, 08:02 PM

Rulesets

Phoenix (see below)
Summer Wars (http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?11375-Official-tournaments-rulesets-discussion&p=367253&viewfull=1#post367253)
GYGO Season 2 - Planning stage (http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?12896-Summer-Wars-preparations&p=393989&viewfull=1#post393989)

~

As some of you are already aware, there will be a major tournament upcoming soon. You may take this opportunity to both give feedback on the ruleset and post any suggestions.

Be sure to provide ample examples when arguing both for or against the ruleset. This is no place for theoryfighter, and such discussion will not be tolerated here. Be sure to back up your claims with evidence and factual data. When stating your opinion, be ready to support how you came about its conclusion; unsupported opinions are not welcomed here. I want a mature and a well thought out discussion. Think, test, and convince us why we should accept your opinion.

And without further ado, the upcoming ruleset is something you are all familiar with. The changes that have not occurred as of this moment are the banning of summons and omega stages.

Ruleset
In-game rules set to: Official
Feral Chaos banned
Hacked Items banned
Infinites banned

Counterpick system

Match 1: Only five stages will be available for choice and they will be chosen on a smash striking system. Both players must decide who gets to strike a stage out first. After this decision:

Player A must choose to strike out between: M.S. Prima Vista, Pandaemonium, Empyreal Paradox, Lunar Subterrane and Old Chaos Shrine.
Player B chooses to strike out one of the four remaining stages.
Player A strikes out another.
Finally, Player B effectively chooses one of the two stages left to be the first battle arena AND immediately announces his/her character.
Player A announces his character and customizes at will, along with Player B.

Match 2: Loser of Match 1 chooses any stage. Winner of Match 1 chooses and announces character. Only then, Loser of Match 1 announces his/her character. Both players customize at will.

Match 3: Same procedures of Match 2 apply, based on Match 2 results.

Round Details

All rounds are 2/3. Finals are 3/5.
Three days will be given to complete each round

Some pointers for discussion:
Summons continued debate
Those who are not familiar with what has been stated before, start reading the discussion from this post (http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?10644-Discussion&p=310063&viewfull=1#post310063) before posting about it here.
Omega stages
Smash striking system? Keep it? Change it? Like/dislike initial stages?
Round deadlines

Seraph Sephiroth

10-07-2011, 04:23 AM

I think summons should be banned this tournament. The grand majority can be bullshit if used right and asura isn't a solution sometimes. But I think everybody is pretty much thinking this way already.

LonelyGaruga

10-07-2011, 04:57 AM

Pretty much what seraph said. Summons are effectively undeniably broken. I think Omegas should probably be banned as well, for competitive purposes, as the stage BRV in more than a few Omega stages tend to unbalance the game a bit, and we already have regular versions of all of the stages, so it's not like it really limits stage choices other than getting rid of the Omega stages that undergo physical changes as part of the effects involved (World of Darkness and the Rift are notable examples).

Smash Striking is good, I think. The only modification that I would consider worth trying right now is TKG's suggestion of striking in a 1-2-1 fashion. Otherwise, I think it's likely to be the most preferable system recommended so far.

Something that I've been thinking about as well is the default selection of stages. IIRC, the idea was to have two crowded stages, two open stages, and one balanced stage, right? Has there already been an in-depth discussion and examination of each stage for that purpose? I haven't really seen such a thread, so I apologize if I'm ignorant of it.

Hollowed

10-07-2011, 05:05 AM

Was nothing learned from Dissidia 1? Counter Burst (lol censored even though it no longer exists) made a huge breakthrough toward the end of the game's life by splitting the competitive scene into two distinct rulesets: customizable and standardized. This was significant for two main reasons. First, people often try to mix the two together with disastrous results. There are arbitrary limitations that everyone can't agree on, which also makes tweaking it a problem. Second, having two clearly defined rulesets allows people to choose and find matches they want to find easier, which helps the meta as a whole. More people playing equals players getting better. These two rulesets also have the benefit of creating different tier lists, so players may like one because it gives their favorite character a big enough boost to stay competitive (ex. Shantotto in full equips in the last game could avoid EXC and EXC well).

Obviously the customizable ruleset will still ban DChaos, infinites, and Omega stages, but gives free reign on Equipment, Accessories, and Summons. A lot of people dislike Summons, but that doesn't make them broken. Summons are a game mechanic and part of the customization that defines the format. The biggest issue I've seen is that Summons enable OHKOs. There are counters to this, and as Veysey pointed out (with an awesome essay), there are 3 main types of Summons: countdown (Tiamat), counter (Syldra), and instant (Cactuar). Each counters one but loses to the other. This is a part of the strategy, as well as using Summons that work well with your character and playstyle. To be honest, most players are unfamiliar with their uses and/or incompetent in using them. They're sort of a meta within themself. If people get used to seeing them played and using them, they may find they enjoy them. All that said, maybe this ruleset isn't for you in particular. That's fine. It's where the standardized ruleset comes in for competitive play. To be honest though, I'm not quite sure what it would look like for this game. Axel could probably help on this one.

Draec Khin

10-07-2011, 05:38 AM

Well stated Hollowed. In addition to your argument I would like to bring up the case when I did play without summons I find it to reduce the meta of the game in general. It felt that I was playing a very "dumbed" down version of Dissidia.

When playing with summons I find it that the "element of surprise" or not can completely make you realize either you didn't plan right, were beaten in a mental challenge in equipping yourself right or the joy of using your summon right.

When I play with summons in general I realize that I have options and so does the opponent. There were cases were I disliked what summons did as you point out but never actually felt it was broken. I thought to myself: Hey I failed to take that into an account and that cost me but I will be ready next time. Dissidia is a game which has two parts both equally important: being skillful and being wise; victory loves preparation.

Also I do very much agree with having one standard ruleset with minimal changes, and changes should be clearly justified. I have yet to see any summon being Via Delerosa or proven to be so broken where drastic measures need to be taken. I also think that basing a whole strategy of making summons be the center of winning the match is greatly over exaggerating as in most cases it will clearly fail. If one does seem to be able to pull that off it would certainly require great preparation, mental state, and flawless execution. Can it be guaranteed 100% of the time like executing Via Delerosa - I think not.

Hollowed

10-07-2011, 06:06 AM

I have yet to see any summon being Via Delerosa or proven to be so broken where drastic measures need to be taken. I also think that basing a whole strategy of making summons be the center of winning the match is greatly over exaggerating as in most cases it will clearly fail. If one does seem to be able to pull that off it would certainly require great preparation, mental state, and flawless execution. Can it be guaranteed 100% of the time like executing Via Delerosa - I think not.

That's true. Last week when I played Aldred in casuals, I was testing out OHKO builds with Summons, actually. They're so dependent on getting a Break that his strategy of building BRV nearly made them useless. So Summons aren't the only strategy to combat Summons as they affect BRV exclusively.

axeeeeL

10-07-2011, 08:18 AM

in tournaments, i dont think summons should be allowed at all. the counter-summon thing was nice, i guess, but if you're going to remove the ability to use summons in the first place, remove them entirely. summons can literally turn a match around with the simple press of two buttons, requires little to no skill, and has a large luck factor involved.

the obvious place to look for a standardized ruleset would be to build off of DFF's most popular ruleset: KAoS. one of the most prevalent problems in the current metagame is the usefulness of both ex/assist. assist is obviously the dominant of the two. thus, ex should be buffed to a certain point where it's viable (and by viable i dont mean that stupid white gem/drop shit and chase whoring for ex).

clearly, the standardized set would be imp. if assists were still included, the problem would be how to balance depletion up to a certain point where it's not a huge problem for campers that build assist AND for avoiding auto-lose EXR situations. if assists were removed entirely and attacking during EXR was banned, depletion wouldnt be necessary.

creating a standardized ruleset for this game might actually be fairly difficult. honestly, i think the first place we should look to is the fusion ruleset. i definitely dig the no chase/no assist deal.

Seraph Sephiroth

10-07-2011, 11:02 AM

Fusion was a tournament for fun. Taking out 2 of the games largest mechanics isn't the way to go if you're trying to move the meta forward.

kewldude475

10-07-2011, 01:56 PM

I am personally in favor of banning summons. Sometimes they just are too annoying and give people a way to beat someone when they otherwise would have lost. I cannot think of a single summon (besides anti-summon summons) that just aren't completely retarded in some way. They do make things more interesting I gues but...I just don't care for their use. Especially when they can potentially give a player who would obviusly not win, a winning battle.

Veysey

10-07-2011, 02:42 PM

I agree with Axel that if summons go - they should COMPLETELY be gone. None of that "give me a free multiplier" BS.

That being said, I've already said all I have to say in the other thread. In short: I don't see them as broken and I think they play an important role in full customization. In standardization, I don't think they have a place and would agree to a ban in a ruleset which controlled equips and accessories. You already know why I feel this way, so I won't be repeating/copy-pasting those points.

I'm all for getting rid of Omegas. Interestingly enough - not specifically for the gimmicks - but for how laggy/unplayable they can make things when certain people connect. Stages which have things spawning, moving, or other obscure factors *coughFFVIIIcough* all tend to cause issues - sometimes resulting in disconnects. To keep things playable and fair, I'm all for banning Omegas.

As for banning normal stages (keeping 5 choices), I'd like to know the reasoning behind that before I comment further.

Khell

10-07-2011, 03:44 PM

Definitely throwing my hat in the "full customization or none" side of the argument. If there's one thing that the Summon discussion taught me, it's that if you aim to take out one part of customization, you may as well go all the way and take it all out. To be honest though, I think the game with no customization at all is downright boring as hell. Hollowed brings up a good point about taking the separate "types" of game and leaving them that way, and I would support that if it was decided on. However, I probably wouldn't participate in a tournament without customization. That might be worth bringing up to others, though I leave the decision to those who would be in charge of it. If the non-customization tournament was something like KAoS which had the standard equip setup, people might still go for it. There could be an option for allowing either an assist friendly standardized set not using Side by Side or an EX friendly standardized set that you can use at any time, but I don't really have any suggestions on where to start with those. If it's a terrible idea, just discard it.

I have a pretty severe dislike towards Omega stages, so I won't go into any further detail than that. However, for some stages (removing the ones that cause additional lag for obvious reasons) the same argument that was placed towards certain Summons could be implemented here. If you "play it right" you'll get a substantial boost in BRV and it's not unfair because your opponent has the same opportunities. I would prefer to see them gone, but I do understand the other side of the coin here.

I also support the Smash Striking and thought Narolf's last tournament did a great job with it. Got to play with that a little in helping some of the players practice for their matches.

As for banning normal stages (keeping 5 choices), I'd like to know the reasoning behind that before I comment further.

I'm not entirely sure where this is coming from either, so I'm with Veysey on this one.

X-Zone

10-07-2011, 05:56 PM

As for banning normal stages (keeping 5 choices), I'd like to know the reasoning behind that before I comment further.

I gather this is primarily for the opening stage choice, so as not to give any specific character a huge advantage for the opening round. For certain characters (Golbez being an obvious example) the opening stage can make all the difference. My battles with Chaos in Fusion WF and GF (set 2) are a pretty ideal example. WF we ended up on EP and I more or less got halo camped to death, due to poor stage striking on my part. GF set 2 we ended up on Pandemonium and I stage trolled (can't think of a more fitting term) Chaos to death. Match 2 onwards all stages are allowed, so this 5 stage limit is only applicable to the first round. On this note, I find the stages on offer a reasonable selection. Had I not been an idiot (to put it bluntly), I would not have been at such a disadvantage in WF first round, and likewise Chaos only ended up at a disadvantage because he (I assume) wanted to disable my Kefka's chances. A good knowledge of the opponent's preferred characters and their respective beneficial stages will be key so I would say this is strategic rather than luck based, and a choice of five is far better than selecting a single default stage to start because you will never find any one stage that is equal for all matchups.

On Omega Stages, I'm fully in favour of banning them. Mainly for the ridiculous stage bravery pools, the buildup of which will be honestly determined by luck; I can recall a number of matches I've played on Omega stages that were decided by a break offering one player a huge amount of brave, however none of those breaks were specifically planned by either participant; the recipient of the reward was in all cases haphazard and circumstancial. I therefore feel the luck factor here outweighs the strategy factor. Veysey makes excellent points on lag/connection issues too. All in all I see very little reason to keep the stages.

On summons, I have little really to add to what was said before in the other thread, so I'm in favour of their removal. Like Axel says, I find it absolutely ridiculous to have a tool that can potentially turn the tide of battle so readily and easily available, the countering and prediction of which is in my opinion largely based on luck. I also agree with Veysey that were we to remove them, remove them altogether, respective multipliers included.

Khell

10-07-2011, 07:01 PM

If we're just talking about the first match, no problems.

I gave the stage choices a little thought and was wondering what led to those stages being picked in particular. I gave it a little thought and figured there should be some opposing stages. For example:

Edge of Madness and Pandaemonium

Both stages are cramped and offer themselves better to CQC, Edge of Madness offers a high ceiling while Pandy has a low(er) ceiling.

Similarly, I'd probably try to do the same with somewhat larger stages that are still playable by just about any character:

Pandaemonium Top Floor and Sky Fortress Bahamut

You get some maneuverability in both stages, while Top Floor offers a low ceiling and Sky Fortress offers a higher ceiling.

The only thing I can't really come to a decision on would be what to offer for a final stage, which should be decently balanced between all of the things above. I can only really think of the Lunar Subterrane, however.

Just some food for thought, mostly. The stages offered are all pretty good, but most of them are very similar.

Also, I have no issues with the deadlines offered. I believe Dissidence-D offered 2 day deadlines? That worked out pretty well for the people who competed seriously. 3 days is just a little more cushion to work with, which is fine with me. The only thing I'd be worried about is the tournament dragging on for a long time.

LonelyGaruga

10-07-2011, 07:05 PM

Since the current subject is on stages, what is the criteria that was used for the five stages currently available for Smash Striking? As I understand it, the current factors used are the size of the stage as well as the height of the ceiling. I assume that is correct? It would be easier to discuss stages for Smash Striking with this knowledge, as well as discussion of the criteria itself, should it be considered flawed and necessary to change.

Veysey

10-07-2011, 07:25 PM

Or instead of banning all summons we only allow Accesorries, Equipment, and assists.

Alright, sorry to single you out but there is a point to be made here. This area is for high level discussion - we expect proper thought to go into posts. Something like this is unacceptable and future posts like this will simply get removed since they add NOTHING to the conversation.

What happened here is he basically said the same thing. Waste of time reading it, waste of time writing it (in this section). Please everyone, put more thought into your posts. You don't need to talk in here if you have nothing to say. Posting for posting is for "out there". In here, make sure you're contributing. That post is now deleted.

Carry on.

So on topic: I think for those stage picks, there needs to be a stage other than Pandemonium that offers Banish Traps. Some characters incorporate those into their brave game/strategies. Sky Fortress Bahamut (like Khell mentioned) is a good choice to replace something in my opinion. You get open space that works well for a lot of mages, lots of ground for those characters. The ceiling isn't TOO high to force strictly aerial combat, walls are manageable. It also has the banish traps. A very well rounded stage in my opinion and gives the extra options needed for some cast members.

axeeeeL

10-07-2011, 11:07 PM

omegas should obviously be gone. the ridiculous brave pools can be really frustrating to deal with. however, ff13 (orphans cradle) also has stage bravery that stacks depending on how much brave is absorbed from banish traps, so if you're going to ban omegas based on the fact that the brave pools are retarded, ff13 needs to go as well.

Fusion was a tournament for fun. Taking out 2 of the games largest mechanics isn't the way to go if you're trying to move the meta forward.

chase isn't a large mechanic in the slightest. core gameplay is hardly changed with the removal of chase.

as for the removal of assist, the point you made is completely redundant considering all it'd be doing is removing an even stupider mechanic and going back to the roots of DFF.

ChaosMuramasa

10-07-2011, 11:18 PM

I'm on board with removing Assists. Honestly, I'm not sure if the meta-game can truly progress with Assists in the equation. We definitely at least need to do some testing in Assist-less matches like Fusion so we can get an idea as to whether or not it is a step in the right direction.

Also, axeL's right---Chase isn't exactly an important mechanic. When you look at it bare-bones, it's just a guessing game. Removing it isn't going to change things. If people do believe that removing it will change things for the worse, then do some testing with chase-less matches and see if it's any different. After Fusion, I feel that I can safely say that Chase-less matches are the way to go. I have a strong feeling X-Zone would agree with me here. As if the guessing game itself wasn't bothersome enough, the distribution of EX through Chase is also ridiculous.

TKG09

10-08-2011, 12:01 AM

Summons: I am against summons. I don't have much to say that I haven't said in the other thread, so go read those posts. And arguing that you can counter them isn't really realistic because... you can't realistically counter. Countering summons basically means having to guess my opponents summon... which means luck. But here's the catch: if I do guess correctly, then my opponent's summon won't do anything, and the match will be put in the same situation it would be with summons banned, If I don't however... then I basically end with my opponent's summon fucking me over, unable to do anything about it, AND with no summon of my own. Not that the latter matters though, because I will be OHKO'd by my opponent's summon combo. Some of you call that High Risk High Reward, but I call it Low Risk High Reward (for the one using summons) and High Risk Low Reward (for the one trying to counter them). This means that both players will try running summons of their own, not giving a shit about the opponent's summon, which brings me to the situation I described in my earlier posts... Where whoever gets more hits in wins, and that will always be the high tier, meaning the summons widen the gaps between high tiers and low tiers.

Omega stages: I agree with banning them. Do I really need to say anything on this one? People have already brought up multiple reasons why they should go, and I'm not repeating myself.

Smash Striking: I want to keep smash striking. For those who don't know, I originally brought it up here: http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?10030-Dissidence-D-The-Feedback&p=285916&viewfull=1#post285916

The only thing I would change is from 1-1-1-1 to 1-2-1. 1-1-1-1 gives the players striking first an disadvantage. He might the strike the stage the other player was planning on striking twice, which does not happen in 1-2-1. For those who don't see how, I'll give an example:

This actually happened in my match with Spyder in the ladders. My plan was: I wanted to play on an open stage. Out of the 5 available, I would much rather play on FF1, but moreover, I did not want to play on a closed one. So basically, I wanted to strike Prima Vista and Pandemonium. But Spyder was the one striking first. He stroke PV. "Good", I thought, one down. My first inclination was to strike Pandy and make damn sure I played on an open stage, however, I thought a little and decided not to. I could strike it on my second strike, so I just stroke FF4. Then Spyder stroke Pandy, and I happily proceeded to strike Empy and play our match on Chaos Shrine.

"But TKG", you must be thinking, "The same would have happened in 1-2-1". To which I reply: it would not. Sure, he would have stroke Prima and given me a "free strike", but after I stroke one of the open stages, it would be my turn to strike again. The I might end up striking the stage he was planning on striking, thus matching out the situation.

On custom rulesets: I am fine with them, and in fact, I want them, because I found EX-O to be so much fun. However, I must say this: NOT NOW. . It is very easy to screw up and make something unbalanced, because there are so many factor to be taken into consideration. Putting a custom standarized ruleset in Octobers tournament is a huge mistake. I want to make damn sure we have a very good ruleset before we announce it. How do we achieve this? basically, do what Smogon does. Discussion, testing, discussion, voting. Then repeat over and over.

Veysey

10-08-2011, 02:48 AM

Discussion, testing, discussion, voting. Then repeat over and over.

Agreed and actually one of the reasons the section was created. You're all here because of your experience and knowledge - you're expected to contribute and testing is in this area, too. So when we get around to fleshing out reasonable changes for a standard outside of full customization, this is how it'll be approached.

I also agree that this tournament shouldn't have any drastic changes. If anything, I'd like to see one last tournament where everything goes and everyone tries to break the shit out of this game so we get some nice, hard, reliable data on where problems do and don't reside.

Seraph Sephiroth

10-08-2011, 06:07 AM

chase isn't a large mechanic in the slightest. core gameplay is hardly changed with the removal of chase.
With the ex core nerf people are chase whoring more for ex. Gaining ex would be even slower, whiich would make it beyond pointless

as for the removal of assist, the point you made is completely redundant considering all it'd be doing is removing an even stupider mechanic and going back to the roots of DFF.

I want you to REALLY go back to the original dissidia for a few days. Its a completely different ball game. you think duodecims boring now? Imagine dissidia without all the crazy shit that made it fun, insane damage, DC combos, broken builds, etc.. ad going back to dff roots would also lead to more turtling.

ChaosMuramasa

10-08-2011, 06:14 AM

I want you to REALLY go back to the original dissidia for a few days. Its a completely different ball game. you think duodecims boring now? Imagine dissidia without all the crazy shit that made it fun, insane damage, DC combos, broken builds, etc.. ad going back to dff roots would also lead to more turtling.

I want you to REALLY go back and look at old threads of this community when DFF was what was in circulation. Look at how involved people were in that game. Look at how much people cared about this community. Now compare it to the current community of DDFF. You will see how Assists have changed practically everything from even beyond the game itself but also to the very users that make up this forum now and their attitudes about things. Taking out Assists isn't only a possible solution to fixing the game---it's a possible solution to bringing the community as a whole one step closer to what it was before.

axeeeeL

10-08-2011, 06:17 AM

a large majority of the community agrees that DFF is a lot more fun and less stupid, seeing as how the assist system renders the game bland and repetitive. if you honestly think that duodecim is more fun than DFF was, then you seriously need to get your eyes checked...

turtling in DFF was caused by the insane dash speed of OAD/MAS, which has been nerfed to the point where it's not a problem now, so no, it wouldnt lead to more turtling.

Khell

10-08-2011, 06:23 AM

turtling in DFF was caused by the insane dash speed of OAD/MAS, which has been nerfed to the point where it's not a problem now, so no, it wouldnt lead to more turtling.

Also factor in the extremely overused SNL to "prevent turtling" in DFF which actually just caused more turtling. With people now using SNL less due to Assist's existance, most people probably haven't even considered going back to using SNL since it costs 50CP to even equip, when you could be using that to keep up your own crit rate or something else to support yourself.

LonelyGaruga

10-08-2011, 06:30 AM

With the ex core nerf people are chase whoring more for ex. Gaining ex would be even slower, whiich would make it beyond pointless

I've never had to use chase to gain EX. A simple EX build is perfectly acceptable for gaining EX, and Cores are still relatively useful for gaining EX. Removing chase doesn't really hamper it that much, unless you're, say, Lightning, and perfectly capable of abusing it.

I want you to REALLY go back to the original dissidia for a few days. Its a completely different ball game. you think duodecims boring now? Imagine dissidia without all the crazy shit that made it fun, insane damage, DC combos, broken builds, etc.. ad going back to dff roots would also lead to more turtling.

I don't really have a comment on this statement, other than that I think axeL would remember what DFF was like! While I think assists should be kept because I feel that it makes some matchups slightly better, I do recognize that taking out assists will help other characters too. Regardless of the decision, the game is more balanced in different ways, and as such it's just a matter of finding the way to balance the game the most, and if taking assists out does that (and it sounds like it will), I'm certainly all for it.

Seraph Sephiroth

10-08-2011, 06:37 AM

Chaos I actually have been lurking since about january 2010. Most of the users here don't play the game at all or don't play it on a competitive level. Or at least that's what's been happening even during dissidia. It might be what happens in all fighting games, the level of skill required to play at tournament levels is so high that most find it not fun and quit or so intimidating that they think they could never play at that level to begin with. Its more noticable here since the dissidia community is smaller. To axel, I don't see how its a large majority of the dissidia community when only one person I've played with out of thousands of matches asked for no assists. It was pretty damn slow and boring.

---------- Post added at 01:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:34 AM ----------

How about after this tourney we have a mini tourney of some sort, without the more "casual" players, without assists. then we can prove who's right without theoryfighting. If everyone is being competitive I can garuantee there will be more turtling.

ChaosMuramasa

10-08-2011, 06:57 AM

Chaos I actually have been lurking since about january 2010. Most of the users here don't play the game at all or don't play it on a competitive level.

Most of the users here don't play the game at all? Are you counting the inactive population? You know, our member base of 6,179? Don't do that. We average at about 100 users per day: 10~20 members, 80~90 guests. Assuming you meant users as in registered users, that leaves 10~20 of us. Out of the 10~20 of us, 15 of us play this game. Out of those 15, roughly 10 play the game competitively. That's half of our actual active member base playing the game competitively.

It might be what happens in all fighting games, the level of skill required to play at tournament levels is so high that most find it not fun and quit or so intimidating that they think they could never play at that level to begin with.

DDFF does not take skill, especially in comparison to other fighters such as Street Fighter or Tekken. The level of skill required to play at tournament levels is actually extremely low. They're not intimidated because of high skill requirements. You're right on one point though---they don't find it fun. The reason they don't find it fun is Assists. Whatever little skill DDFF DOES take, Assists just completely kill it. With Assists, almost zero skill is actually involved. Yes, if we take Assists out, there may be some camping involved still and some problems may remain, but a higher level of skill will be required (even if it's not that much). This is a step in the right direction.

To axel, I don't see how its a large majority of the dissidia community when only one person I've played with out of thousands of matches asked for no assists. It was pretty damn slow and boring.

Have you thought to consider the fact that maybe everyone else is just too comfortable with their Assists doing all the work for them? They've just fallen into the habit of an Assist-based game and, quite frankly, seeing as how you call Assist-less Duodecim "slow and boring," it seems that you've fallen into this pit as well. At this point, Seraph, considering the fact that you have several people telling you that an Assist-less Duodecim is a step in the right direction, you should just listen to us. Your personal opinion on it being slow and boring has no actual bearing on the fact that a meta-game fueled by the absence of Assists actually has a better chance of surviving and thriving as compared to one with Assists.

Seraph Sephiroth

10-08-2011, 07:06 AM

Khell

10-08-2011, 07:14 AM

Wow only 10 serious players. That's a bit... pitiful. Again I suggested testing it out, but the end result is going to be turtling, snooze and lose, and zidane top tier yet again. dissidia 1.5 here we come.

I thought the idea here was to be mature about the discussion? At least keep the glimpse of professionalism you had through your last couple posts.

I have one thing to ask you if you think that an Assist-less Duodecim is slow and boring: if the game is this watered down without assists, what is it like with assists? Fast-paced and exciting doesn't really describe it when one person is controlling a one-sided match with their Kuja assist flinging the opponent around the arena while they do nothing.

If, pray tell, Assist-less Duodecim is slow and boring, and it would in fact be "Dissidia 1.5", how did the Fusion tournament flourish? Before you say "because it was for fun", yes, it was for fun. Most tournaments are "for fun" and have a prize that just ends up as part of winning in the end. Personally, I'd find the tournaments more fun if the other participants were in it for fun and not so damn serious about winning and losing. If we could bottle the feeling that came from the participants of Fusion (many of which I played friendlies with under Fusion's ruleset), we'd not only have a better community but also a better game.

However, your opinion is your own, but you may want to find another way to back up your own opinion when several others disagree and are supporting their statements with facts and not conjecture and sweeping generalizations. Try asking others what they know about the situation before making assumptions or hasty decisions.

ChaosMuramasa

10-08-2011, 07:18 AM

Wow only 10 serious players. That's a bit... pitiful. Again I suggested testing it out

What, you expected more? Surely you knew of the state of decline that we've been in. Take what you can get, man. That's why we made this back-room; an attempt to revitalize the scene to the biggest extent possible. I'd like to think all of us here are trying our best to do it and we all realize that things need to be enacted upon and changed right away to make it happen. As it's already been stated by several people here, we all kind of agree that even a DFF 1.5 would be a hell of a lot better than whatever the hell we've got going on here with DDFF and Assists at the moment anyway. Of course there's going to be testing as well---nothing's concrete yet, so you don't need to jump ship.

but the end result is going to be turtling, snooze and lose, and zidane top tier yet again. dissidia 1.5 here we come.

You do realize that we already have that going on, right? We've got more than enough turtling. Dissidia is a turtling game just by nature. There's no denying that. The Assist System REWARDS you for turtling with more Gauge and Gauge Maintenance through Assist Camping, so don't say "the end result is going to be turtling" when turtling was the result from the start. Assist Gauge Duration is basically the same equivalent to Snooze and Lose, except instead of losing BRV, you're losing Gauge. So, when you think about it, it won't be that much different. Removing Assist is going to increase the amount of natural skill required (since Kuja won't be doing the work for everybody) and it'll also make lower-tier characters more viable.

Khell

10-08-2011, 07:22 AM

Removing Assist is going to increase the amount of natural skill required (since Kuja won't be doing the work for everybody) and it'll also make lower-tier characters more viable.

I just want to point out that when considering on whether to remove a function or not, it's going to affect EVERYONE in the cast. It's a matter of addressing how big the change is and what the overall effect will be. In this case, removing assists will most likely make lower-tier characters more viable since they won't be assist punished for taking actions (when in retrospect, you could never really assist punish most of the high-tier characters to begin with). We should probably keep this in mind later when we inevitably switch the topic back to customization vs standardization.

Seraph Sephiroth

10-08-2011, 07:35 AM

Guys sorry. I'm just tired. Ill be back tomorrow. @khell Anyway I thought we were done trying to pit customization and standardization vs each other and have them seperate yet side by side (no pun intended). @chaos assists reduce turtling whille dff had nothing to counteract it besides snooze and lose. which just made people whiff an attack at the air every few seconds and waiting on the other person to attack. Lastly and my most important point, why would I jump ship when I made it to the gangsta lounge?

Khell

10-08-2011, 07:39 AM

@khell Anyway I thought we were done trying to pit customization and standardization vs each other and have them seperate yet side by side (no pun intended).

As far as I know the topic is still up for discussion. I know the idea of having them separated is supported by a couple people at the very least, though we definitely still need discussion into how to properly go from one to the other.

axeeeeL

10-08-2011, 07:41 AM

why are you bothering questioning my first-hand experience of what the community was like back then? you didnt even partake in it... and you're acting like you know what it was like?

thats laughable. please stop talking. the community was twice as active as it was now, and DFF's lifespan was MUCH longer than DDFF's.

ChaosMuramasa

10-08-2011, 07:44 AM

@chaos assists reduce turtling whille dff had nothing to counteract it besides snooze and lose which just made people whiff an attack at the air every few seconds and waiting on the other person to attack.

Sephiroth spacing himself halfway across the map spamming Shadow Flare to build up his Assist Gauge to full bars doesn't count as turtling? Exdeath spamming Reverse Polarity and High Guard with rapid dodges in-between to keep up both Gauges doesn't count as turtling? No, my friend, Assists encourage turtling. When you look at it plainly, any form of Assist Camping is actually just a variation of turtling. Furthermore, in a competitive Assist-based meta-game, the top-tier characters are going to set their priorities to building up both Gauges first before they try to do anything. In response, the other character will attempt to do the same to keep up. This situation in itself is essentially both players turtling the hell out of one another to see who can stay on top of Assist Maintenance.

Will other forms of turtling still exist with Assists out of the equation? Probably---that's just Dissidia's nature, both 013 and 012. Still, you've cut out a major source of the turtling with the removal of Assists, fixing a lot of the problem.

As axeL already stated, the issue with DFF and Snooze and Lose was the ungodly retarded speed of Omni Air Dash and Multi-Air Slide. That's been remedied to reasonable levels now, so it's not going to pose as big of a problem as it did before. Hell, it might actually even be manageable now.

LonelyGaruga

10-08-2011, 08:00 AM

@chaos assists reduce turtling whille dff had nothing to counteract it besides snooze and lose. which just made people whiff an attack at the air every few seconds and waiting on the other person to attack.

No they do not. I don't think I have to point out what a Sephiroth player typically does at the beginning of a fight, do I? With assists, it is quite normal to simply camp for assist, since, as Chaos stated, you are REWARDED for camping and turtling. Removing assists would indeed reduce turtling and camping because there would be no assist gauge that would benefit from said camping.

EDIT: Oh, ninja'd.

X-Zone

10-08-2011, 09:27 AM

Sephiroth spacing himself halfway across the map spamming Shadow Flare to build up his Assist Gauge to full bars doesn't count as turtling? Exdeath spamming Reverse Polarity and High Guard with rapid dodges in-between to keep up both Gauges doesn't count as turtling? No, my friend, Assists encourage turtling.
This. Also, the way the metagame stands now, I think it goes without saying that Sephiroth and Exdeath are ridiculous for said reasons. Assists offer nothing but additional advantages for what are already clearly top tier characters. Take away assists and you take away assist combos from SF and RP to name two obvious examples, you take away the need for the other player to turtle to match their gauge (approaching while at a gauge disadvantage being risky for obvious reasons), and as a consequence you don't slow down matches; in fact, you speed up the flow of battle by making an offensive immediately viable.

The issue with DFF and Snooze and Lose was the ungodly retarded speed of Omni Air Dash and Multi-Air Slide. That's been remedied to reasonable levels now, so it's not going to pose as big of a problem as it did before. Hell, it might actually even be manageable now.
I've been playing in a no-assist environment ALOT, in fact I make no secret Fusion is my preferred ruleset, and SnL indeed hasn't been an issue thus far. An irritance at times, yes, but not remotely enough to be a significant issue. Besides, while it may not be so useful with gauge reduction as a deterrent for inactivity, SnL is still an available tool in the current meta so I really don't see it as a significant factor. I agree no assists will need more testing from everyone, but contrary to Seraph's opinion, myself and a number of other european players find the game to be alot more enjoyable with assists removed from the equation. Funnily enough, I've also seen low tiers used more often in this ruleset...

As for chase, as Chaos guessed, I am not a fan of it. I was fine with DFF chase; DDFF chase, on the other hand, I frankly find unplayable. I will concede that perhaps I just don't have the reactions for it, but I do find it to be more of a guessing game in a lagless environment. Additionally, with assists disabled: as has already been stated, chase risks strongly upsetting the balance of EX intake, which is a major issue with the absence of assists. With assists enabled the EX intake from chase is perhaps less of an issue; however, bearing in mind depletion and a very likely assist combo awaiting the would-be victor, the rewards for winning a chase strike me as very unbalanced compared to DFF.

Veysey

10-08-2011, 02:27 PM

Seraph Sephiroth: I think you're proving you WEREN'T around during the timeframe you stated. Lurking or not, you certainly weren't paying attention to the competitive scene. We had what? 68ish PARTICIPANTS in KAoS (http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/1284/kaosfinal7.gif) which was in April 2010 - the tournament directly after you started "lurking". We had around 58ish participants in KAoS 2.0 (http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1407/bracketsl.jpg)... the last DFF tournament this site held on AHP.

Dissidia held a respectable number of competitive players. If that's what you consider "inactive", like Axel said, get your eyes checked because that is enough people to easily keep a small scene afloat.

As for the assist debate everyone is going on about, I'm going to ask you all to NOT talk about that here since it isn't going to effect this tournament. This topic is for the upcoming tournament and if there are important issues like "the effects assists play on the meta" or whatever, I encourage people to DEFINITELY bring it up in a new topic.

Now, back on track please.

X-Zone

10-08-2011, 06:58 PM

Apologies Veysey, I should have checked back to the first page before continuing on the issue of assists/chase. I hope the points brought up so far can prove useful for future discussion. I will most likely be unable to discuss further for the next two weeks so I'd like to summarise my views if I may on the points Spyder suggested for discussion:

Summons: fully in favour of banning for the aforementioned reasons. Defending against them is in my opinion largely a case of guesswork, making the use of summons more potentially effective offensively which I believe makes them to be an unbalanced mechanic. This would be fine if they had to be earned in a similar vein to super combos; however to add to this, their ease of use, the closest equivalent in my eyes being using a powerful item in Smash bros, is another factor which I believe makes summons undesirable in tournament settings. Also in favour of consequently banning related accessories to avoid 'free' multipliers.

Omega Stages: again, fully in favour of banning due to both the luck factor involved in the stage brave pools and the potential connection issues Veysey brought up.

Smash Striking: this system gets the ball rolling nicely for forming an initial strategy depending on stage choice and knowledge of the opponent's characters. The limit of 5 stages is reasonable: enough to offer strategy, and any more would be counter-productive and waste time in my opinion. Also happy with the suggested stage selection. I do think Khellendros made some reasonable alternative suggestions with Sky Fortress Bahamut and Pandemonium Top Floor, and likewise TKG's suggestions to change the striking system are worth consideration; however I see no immediate need for change. In summary, happy with both the current system and the selection of initial stages.

Round Deadlines: I'll abstain from this. Three days per round seems lenient to me; however, having only participated in a custom tournament, I'm unsure as to the degree to which round attendance/punctuality/etc is a factor during a major tournament.

Vance

10-09-2011, 08:45 AM

On custom rulesets: I am fine with them, and in fact, I want them, because I found EX-O to be so much fun. However, I must say this: NOT NOW. . It is very easy to screw up and make something unbalanced, because there are so many factor to be taken into consideration. Putting a custom standarized ruleset in Octobers tournament is a huge mistake. I want to make damn sure we have a very good ruleset before we announce it. How do we achieve this? basically, do what Smogon does. Discussion, testing, discussion, voting. Then repeat over and over.

I'm completely in agreement with TGK that the main tournaments are the wrong place to be testing rules. You don't push a brand new act directly onto the main stage, you gotta try it out backstage first.

I propose we pick ether four or eight of the high caliber players we have gathered here to compete in a series of several short, single-elimination tournaments under several different sets of rules; full fledged official (the control), official with summons and/or chase banned, and Fusion's rules for starters. Of course, replays should be saved for every match. Then we can analyze the replays and compare them to one another and make more informed decisions as to where to go from there.

Of course, there probably isn't enough time to properly test and discuss all the potential rules before the October tournament, so you might as well just play that one with the rules as is.

Veysey

10-09-2011, 02:53 PM

Vance

10-09-2011, 05:09 PM

This is a little off-topic again, but I guess it needs to be said.

I think you're missing the point of the back room. Everyone is the testing team for stuff like that. Also, most of you have the foresight to be able to properly discuss the effects certain rule changes have without specifically needing to play it right off the bat. THIS is why TKG was quite right when he suggested discussion -> testing -> discussion -> implementation (as he said, voting). Everyone buys into it, discusses, tests, and votes. Those who opt NOT to test certain things certainly do not have the right discuss or vote after the initial testing phase.

As members of the back room, you're not only here to have the luxury to discuss things without the interference of less experienced individuals; but you also have a little added responsibility. At this point, consider it like you've got to earn the right to stay back here.

By no means was I suggesting to exclude the people in the forum proper (at least, I didn't mean for it to come off that way). I was just thinking of getting things started here. Kind of like a closed alpha before the open beta. You're right in saying most of the others here can understand the impact of changing something without jumping right in to testing. But most of the things being discussed here are just continuations of things that were being discussed in the forum proper (especially the matter regarding summons). I just thought getting some testing going would help break the cycle of arguing in circles that always seems to be going on. But it was just a suggestion, if you guys think it's too soon/not needed/whatever then that's ok. I'm fine with being wrong.

With that said, my main point (the one most relevant to the topic at hand) is still that I think testing should be separated from the site's main tournaments. It simply wouldn't look good on the joint if the main event were to be compromised by some flaw in the rules nobody noticed beforehand. I think the testing of new rules should be a special event in and of itself. That way the rules can be modified and balanced properly (and potentially scrapped, if need be) over the course of several "beta test" tournaments. If one of these tournaments gets compromised by a flaw in the rules? GREAT! That's one more flaw that can be isolated and eliminated before the rules "go live" in one of the main tournaments.

But now that I think of it, Fusion could be looked at as the beta test for it's rule set. The replays and results of Fusion should defiantly be brought into the assists vs no-assist discussion (in a new thread, of course, as Veysey requested).

Spyder

10-10-2011, 02:24 AM

To make it clear to everyone: if any changes will take place, they will only be minor. Major changes such as banning assists will not take place for this major tournament. Any further discussion on assists should be posted in this thread: http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?11400-Standardized-Competitive-Ruleset and Fusion being the leading example of what assist-less battles will be like along with any other outside examples.

And now to address the question of how the five initial stages were chosen. The first line of thought was not to pick any dramatic stages that can also easily act as counterpicks right off first match. Stages like the Rift, Edge of Madness, Phantom Train, etc would always be the first struck because of how much advantage/disadvantage they offer to certain characters. Characters that require a ground game or walls, will always go for banning stages like the Rift and Orphan's Cradle for instance (if those were one of the initial stage). Characters that require a little more space will automatically go for striking EoM and PT; leaving mostly only the "middle" stage as the playable one. So to avoid these polarizing options, initial stages had to give a little bit of something to most of the cast.

Onwards, the stages chosen and why. In short, the stages were chosen in such a way to provide a different environment in each and to provide a fighting chance to all types of characters. Two cramped, two open (vertical and horizontal), and one in the middle.

Prima Vista: Small but open. Its height not as low as PT's, and its width not as limiting as EoM's diameter. It sports two levels to not leave an opponent completely at the mercy of a cqc fighter that has chosen that stage. Generally sports to ground, close-ranged and wallrushing characters. Depending on the character, some aerial combat can still take place.

Pandaemonium: Cramped map. Plenty of pockets of cramped spaces to hide behind, but also holds central area with little ground and a generous breathing space for a small map when compared to others of its size. Also includes a floor warp. Generally supports ground, close-ranged and wallrushing characters, but also provides an area for some aerial combat and gives room for long range attacks that spawn where the enemy is, while providing cover for the caster.

Lunar Subterrane: Open, horizontal map. The ceiling isn't high enough to completely force a ground character into the air. Aerial characters will have no problems ceiling rushing, but ground characters won't have trouble finding ground to do the same against the floor. Generally sports to aerial, long-range, and chasing styles. However due to its limited height, wallrushing and some ground characters can still function.

Old Chaos Shrine: Open, vertical map. Unlike the Lunar Subterrane, it offers a floor that allows some characters to use as a shield and as a spacing mechanism. The niches at the bottom of the map also allows for hiding and floor/wall rushing--an element LS doesn't house. Mostly provides for aerial, long-range fighters. However, ground and wallrushing characters can still try taking the fight to the bottom of the stage.

Empyreal Paradox: Medium sized map. Ideally, the thought that chose this over a few other maps that could fit the bill was that it had a little bit of everything. A high ceiling for aerial characters, and a smaller radius than normal for ground characters. The crystal in the middle doesn't allow for the same type of aerial assault from the ceiling that open maps allow for. A map that can provide an environment for all styles--ground and aerial, wallrushing, close-range and long range.

axeeeeL

10-11-2011, 05:09 AM

doesnt sound too bad.

anyways, like i said: if you're going to ban omegas based on random stage bravery, then you should ban ff13 as well. regardless, i think this game's "EXGC" should be banned. some characters have the potential to attack a staggered opponent after a level 2 assist change, whether it be with a brave or HP attack. a couple examples, all after level 2 assist change:

- squall's AC
- sephiroth's HL
- in some cases, golbez's float/gravity system
- ragnarok blade (laguna/bartz) off of a properly spaced ceiling

there's a lot more im missing, but these are the ones i can pull off the top of my head. characters that have SBS equipped and can link a lvl 2 assist change to an HP attack will have an extremely large advantage over others, especially if they can build assist faster than their opponent.

i think winning EXRs should be banned, too, but that's just me.

Khell

10-11-2011, 05:14 AM

That seems like a pretty sound proposal. I know pretty well how frustrating it is being on the wrong end of it, and how easy it makes it for you when you're on the end that benefits. We can just specifically go with no attacks after a 2 bar assist change if the opponent staggers from it. If the attack continues it's either because the opponent was using a Ranged Attack (like Heavenly Strike) or you had to get assist locked in the process. Thoughts?

axeeeeL

10-11-2011, 05:36 AM

you guys should probably talk about punishing normal attacks from level 1 assist changes as well. moves like OSv5 are reaaaally easily punished...but this is definitely a built-in mechanic of the game, and on top of that, the player has the choice to not use a punishable move in the first place.

if you guys were to implement this, though, the very least that should be done is preventing someone from attacking a staggered opponent after a level 2 assist change, because, well... it's basically a free attack no matter how you look at it.

Khell

10-11-2011, 05:45 AM

I gave the Level 1 assist change idea some thought, but I figured that giving up your assist in order to land a hit is a fair trade. Then again, it would just encourage more turtling until the user gets their assist back, then including the assist camping that may follow... well, you get the idea. As you said, it also depends on the attack the opponent uses that would get them punished by this in the first place. In addition to Omni V5, I can think of things like Bitter End, Double Trouble, and Finishing Touch.

Hollowed

10-11-2011, 02:16 PM

anyways, like i said: if you're going to ban omegas based on random stage bravery, then you should ban ff13 as well.

All Banish Traps work the same way, not just FF13's.

TKG09

10-11-2011, 06:16 PM

Lvl 2 assist changing into HP is not a problem when playing in tournament level because you can just lvl 2 assist change out of it and punish the opponent with your own HP for even trying it. You might think that this leads into camping, but people would camp without it for two bars anyway for other reasons.

The main two problems with this is that not every character can HP after their own lvl 2 assist change. This is why I said it is not a problem in tournament level, because these characters are the low tiers that aren't gonna get used anyway. But would removing the HPAC2C (this is my made up term for HPing after lvl 2 assist changing) make the low tiers viable? It would make them slightly better, but they would still be unviable because they suck for another reason. And that is, of course, the fact that some character are way to slow on assist building. This is not just a problem because they can't assist change out of HPAC2Cs, but also because of assist punishing, general unsafeness, and not being able to lock assists with HP assist changes, therefore being vulnerable to those.

So yes, removing it will help a little, but it won't solve things at all. It's only a small part of the problem.

Vamper62

10-11-2011, 06:35 PM

i think winning EXRs should be banned, too, but that's just me.

Logically, the only time winning EXRs should be banned is in a no Assist ruleset. Without assists, there is only one method of EX Depletion (Dismay Shock and the Lufenia set) which basically means a super broken DFF EX Guard (Garland says hi). To me, EX Revenge finishers and Assists should always come together; you either get both or neither.

axeeeeL

10-11-2011, 09:53 PM

All Banish Traps work the same way, not just FF13's.

i never noticed this.

the only time i noticed stage bravery changing was when i was playing bloodsword on ff13, but i guess that's just because 1000-2000 bravery was drained each time.

Lvl 2 assist changing into HP is not a problem when playing in tournament level because you can just lvl 2 assist change out of it and punish the opponent with your own HP for even trying it. You might think that this leads into camping, but people would camp without it for two bars anyway for other reasons.

The main two problems with this is that not every character can HP after their own lvl 2 assist change. This is why I said it is not a problem in tournament level, because these characters are the low tiers that aren't gonna get used anyway. But would removing the HPAC2C (this is my made up term for HPing after lvl 2 assist changing) make the low tiers viable? It would make them slightly better, but they would still be unviable because they suck for another reason. And that is, of course, the fact that some character are way to slow on assist building. This is not just a problem because they can't assist change out of HPAC2Cs, but also because of assist punishing, general unsafeness, and not being able to lock assists with HP assist changes, therefore being vulnerable to those.

So yes, removing it will help a little, but it won't solve things at all. It's only a small part of the problem.

the majority of the characters in the game cannot HP after an assist change, and even a lot of the higher-tiered characters can't do it. to list some (in most circumstances): zidane, kuja, ultimecia, exdeath, cloud, wol, etc.

please just stop talking if you're going to say "oh those guys wont get used in tourneys anyways because theyre low tier lolol." not everybody is a tier whore faggot like you, and ON TOP IF THIS, only certain characters can HP after AClvl2 regardless. it doesn't only pertain to the high or top tiers and it's not what determines the tier a character lands in.

Downpour

10-12-2011, 01:22 AM

IMO we need To remove the assist change lv 2 and another ideia: You can't land HPA with Assist lv1, but you can use HPA with a assist lv 2.

ChaosMuramasa

10-12-2011, 01:42 AM

IMO we need To remove the assist change lv 2 and another ideia: You can't land HPA with Assist lv1, but you can use HPA with a assist lv 2.

Regarding your second statement---using an HP Attack after an Assist HP---what would be the point in that? You would do just about 0 to 5 HP damage unless you're carrying heavy BRV Recovery % bonus accessories or equipment. It would be smarter to use a BRV attack to reap the criticals that come with being at low BRV, especially if the enemy is near break.

I'm a bit split on whether or not we should remove using HP Attacks after a BRV Assist. On one hand, removing it would help some of the lower tiers manage, but on the other hand, you're also hurting their game as a whole because the characters that already have a below average HP game will have an even harder time.

I'm all for removing LV-2 Assist Changes, though.

Seraph Sephiroth

10-12-2011, 01:55 AM

Ex gaurds were bull in dissidia since it completely shut you down and basically force you to take hits and run away until you can build an ex gauge. With lvl 2 assist changes they seem easier to mistime (maybe its just me), you sacrifice your assist gauges, and if you assist camped to 2 bars. Your opponent probably has almost as much if not as much of an assist gauge and you end up punished. This would only help out somone who is completely and utterly terrible at assist camping (OK). And if they're that terrible they'll have other flaws that will make people not use them in tournaments (unless its a good player screwing around in which case he already knows the flaws he/she will have to put up with). Ex countering was unbalanced and even had an unwritten rule among normal players to not be used. Lvl 2 assist changing hasn't reached that state of everyone calling "BULLSHIT!" Every match and doesn't need to be banned.

ChaosMuramasa

10-12-2011, 02:00 AM

And if they're that terrible they'll have other flaws that will make people not use them in tournaments (unless its a good player screwing around in which case he already knows the flaws he/she will have to put up with).

Please do not use this argument. Every character must be accounted for, no matter the tier. In case you didn't notice, axeL already stated this point, so you really need to read:

please just stop talking if you're going to say "oh those guys wont get used in tourneys anyways because theyre low tier lolol." not everybody is a tier whore faggot like you, and ON TOP IF THIS, only certain characters can HP after AClvl2 regardless. it doesn't only pertain to the high or top tiers and it's not what determines the tier a character lands in.

As for your other statement which also proves that you haven't looked into this matter significantly...

Ex countering was unbalanced and even had an unwritten rule among normal players to not be used. Lvl 2 assist changing hasn't reached that state of everyone calling "BULLSHIT!" Every match and doesn't need to be banned.

The point is that some characters have specific direct actions they can do after a Level 2 Assist Change. These options will always work, such as Heaven's Light and Aerial Circle. These attacks will always connect after a Level 2 Assist Change. Not every character has access to an attack that will work off of a Level 2 Assist Change, so the system becomes universally unbalanced and unfair amongst the roster. You either ban attacking after a Level 2 Assist Change or you ban Level 2 Assist Changes as a whole. Leaving it alone isn't fair to the members of the roster that do not have an assured hit after a Level 2 Assist Change. Once again, axeL already covered this point in it's entirety as well.

Seraph Sephiroth

10-12-2011, 02:13 AM

ChaosMuramasa

10-12-2011, 02:19 AM

Khell

10-12-2011, 02:23 AM

If you're presenting a counter argument to something regarding customization-related tools (namely attacks that can land off a Level 2 Assist Change), then why would you bring up something that is built in and (for the most part) cannot be influenced? That doesn't make much sense to me.

I tried brainstorming a list of attacks with the help of Garuga last night that could potentially land off of a Level 2 Assist Change, and while most of the cast can't land HPs, many of them can still land free hits and remain safe.

Vamper62

10-12-2011, 02:26 AM

ChaosMuramasa

10-12-2011, 02:27 AM

I tried brainstorming a list of attacks that could potentially land off of a Level 2 Assist Change, and while most of the cast can't land HPs, many of them can still land free hits and remain safe.

I'd still say that's unfair considering the fact that an HP Attack would rightfully force the opponent to pull off their own Level 2 Assist Change. If they don't, they'll eat HP Damage and Assist Gauge Depletion anyway. The situation becomes worse if the enemy is using Side by Side. As such, they probably would set off their own Level 2 Assist Change to block the HP counterattack to even out the playing field. At this point, both players are in possession of empty gauges and the cycle starts once again.

It's kind of like that old saying of bringing gum into class. You better have enough to share with everyone or else you can't have any. Unless every character can use an HP Attack after a Level 2 Assist Change and have an assured hit confirm, none of them should be allowed to do it.

Khell

10-12-2011, 02:29 AM

ChaosMuramasa

10-12-2011, 02:30 AM

Oh that's not what I was getting at, Chaos. I'm all in favor of removing them (I agreed with Axel in the post just after his). What I mean is that there are other options for the characters who CAN'T land the HPs, which will still be free hits even if it's just some BRV damage. Free hits are free hits :/

Ah, my mistake. So that only makes the concept that much more ridiculous, then.

Yeah, Level 2 Assist Changes are stupid. My agreement to this matter is sound.

Seraph Sephiroth

10-12-2011, 02:31 AM

Vamper62

10-12-2011, 02:35 AM

ChaosMuramasa

10-12-2011, 02:38 AM

Yes where an ex core appears is random. But unless the guy using seph/exdeath/firion/cecil etc is the luckiest person to ever exist and the ex core always spawns right next to them, then the faster character will ALWAYS get to the ex core first. I'm pretty sure a person using one of the fast chaaracters would list that as a benefit of using them in the first place.

You cannot rightfully say they will ALWAYS get it---luck is an uncontrollable factor. There is no way of knowing this. While the chances are higher, it's not 100%. With this being the case, you cannot compare it to something that IS 100%, such as Heaven's Light or Aerial Circle connecting off of a Level 2 Assist Change.

Do you see what we're all trying to tell you here? It's just insane to really try to compare EX Cores (a factor of complete luck) to Level 2 Assist Change Counterattacks (a factor set in stone that is always concrete). You shouldn't bother comparing one to the other as a point of argument when they're incomparable to begin with.

Also, as Vamper stated, that kind of thing regarding movement speed doesn't even have any real bearing or relevance to the topic at hand. It's minuscule and unimportant.

There was an "unfair rift" in characters without assists in the first place. Certain characters will be better in areas other characters suck in. I actually can't even think of a fighter where every single character is perfectly balanced in all areas and all characters had the capabilities to do the same things.

You're right. There is an unfair rift in this game, and it's quite easy to see. I won't deny you on that point.

The problem is that Level 2 Assist Changes make that rift even bigger, presenting even more problems in balance.

If the goal is to make the game as balanced as possible, any and all controllable factors that make this rift bigger than it needs to be should be eliminated. Simply put, Level 2 Assist Changes are one of these factors that widen the gap. You can never fix the gap entirely---this game will always be unbalanced. You can, however, make it less unbalanced and make that rift as small as you can possibly manage by removing these controllable factors. Do you understand now how removing Level 2 Assist Changes would at least be a good start to fixing what we at least can in this already broken game?

Khell

10-12-2011, 02:40 AM

Seraph Sephiroth

10-12-2011, 02:46 AM

Khell

10-12-2011, 02:49 AM

So you're ok with letting people use Level 2 Assist changes to score a free hit (BRV or not), then go back to turtling and assist camping to do it again until they win? That's what we're trying to get at. This strategy is just more viable for those who can land the HP attacks, and thus more potent.

ChaosMuramasa

10-12-2011, 02:54 AM

Oh I get what you're trying to say. But in my eyes its pretty much the same. Not all characters have the same tools. And no the HL or ariel circle isn't. 100% even if your opponent has one assist bar they can assist escape out and punish you, with two bars its definite. This was demonstrated quite a few times in tkg vs rdfs wally (pretty sure you've all seen it from the many times tkg has posted it).

/facepalm

We've already been through this. We already know that some characters have their options after a Level 2 Assist Change compared to others who do not---that's how this entire thing started. Sephiroth and Warrior of Light are some of the characters who have options. The entire situation changes when you're using a character who does not have an HP Attack to use after a Level 2 Assist Change.

I guess you need an example; Sephiroth VS. Emperor.

Sephiroth is being hit. He does a Level 2 Assist Change, staggering Emperor (I know this isn't actually possible, but I need to say this since this point isn't getting across) and starting up Heaven's Light. In response, Emperor does a Level 2 Assist Change on Heaven's Light, staggering Sephiroth. What are the Emperor's HP Attack options now?
A. Red Flare, Sephiroth can recover before it floats up/down to him
B. Dash to Sephiroth, throw out a Red Flare, have him dodge away from it since it won't be in time
C. Dreary Cell which would not activate at all
D. lolstarfall

As you can see, if the Emperor or another character with no HP Attack options were in that situation, he's just gotta suck it up and keep playing. It's not fair to him. If every cast member cannot replicate similar situations between one another in this situation, then it's just unfair and it widens the gap between the roster even further.

LonelyGaruga

10-12-2011, 02:58 AM

I actually noticed quite a while back. I didn't straight out complain about it though. Some characters have better tools in certain situations than others. Its like taking off OKs', tidus' or zidane's speed since they can reach ex cores faster and get ex core dominance in most matches. but not EVERY character has that ability right?

Yes where an ex core appears is random. But unless the guy using seph/exdeath/firion/cecil etc is the luckiest person to ever exist and the ex core always spawns right next to them, then the faster character will ALWAYS get to the ex core first. I'm pretty sure a person using one of the fast chaaracters would list that as a benefit of using them in the first place.

You simply cannot compare an impossibility to a luck factor. Free hits are not nearly on the same level as EX gained through a luck factor. We may choose to remove EX Cores, should it be considered that the game is more balanced without them, but it must be tested. As it stands, the 2 bar assist changes are a much more important factor right now, seeing as, like many others have stated, they are essentially free hits, no different from EX Guards. Yes, it is possible to assist camp in retaliation relatively easily, except for the fact that the character that builds assist faster can also assist punish the opponent and deplete all of their assist, which means that only some characters are capable of doing what you have suggested. And, again, free hits either way. Also worth noting is that your suggestion is completely useless if the opponent has EX. At least EX Guards could be reliably countered by performing one yourself. If your opponent has both a full EX and assist gauge, you cannot protect yourself in any way.

There was an "unfair rift" in characters without assists in the first place. Certain characters will be better in areas other characters suck in. I actually can't even think of a fighter where every single character is perfectly balanced in all areas and all characters had the capabilities to do the same things.

Yes, and our goal is to help patch this rift. Everyone here already knows that it is impossible to create a perfectly balanced game. It is, however, possible to make a game more balanced by adjusting features and game mechanics, as well as adding rules for how the game is to be played. That is what the discussion here is for. If you have any ideas for this, please, share them and discuss. But do consider the full implications of what is being suggested before you respond.

EDIT:

EDIT:@khellendros I actually don't care about speed very much, since I don't care about ex cores (accepted how slow seph is in dissidia one) but the point of the comparison was its a game mechanic that puts a gap in between characters and there's no way for most characters to get that fast. But its an intended game mechanic that most have no problem with so I've accepted it, just like level 2 assist changes should be.

No, this is not a good attitude to have here. Otherwise, we would have kept EX Guards and made them tournament legal, and allowed Feral Chaos, and Omega stages instead of banning them. Our goal is to figure out the best way to balance the game via discussion and testing. There is no denying that the game can be more balanced by this, and the current discussions (banning assists, banning 2 bar assist changes) are very likely to help with this, and probably should have been implemented a long time ago.

Seraph Sephiroth

10-12-2011, 03:00 AM

Khell

10-12-2011, 03:10 AM

Again, nothing is stopping you from assist camping right back and punishing them if they try that tactic. So what you're all saying is you have a problem with playing tactically with the characters that have these options since it doesn't benefit your characters or tactics. So you're trying to get an option banned that has minimal affect on an actual match to begin with.

So tell me, how does this not benefit Golbez when he's one of the ones that can benefit from it in certain situations? WoL when it benefits him in certain situations? You're really picking the wrong arguments to use against me here. EX Counter was banned because it caused free hits. This is the same thing, what's stopping it from being banned again? I think it should simply because of that. EXR is different because you lose your bar and it takes a while to build it up again. Level 2 Assist Changes are the target here because of how easy it is to rebuild assist to take advantage of the situation. Heck, it's on a completely different level than EX Counters because you don't even need to hit your opponent to build assist.

@khellendros I actually don't care about speed very much, since I don't care about ex cores (accepted how slow seph is in dissidia one) but the point of the comparison was its a game mechanic that puts a gap in between characters and there's no way for most characters to get that fast. But its an intended game mechanic that most have no problem with so I've accepted it, just like level 2 assist changes should be.

I really shouldn't have to explain a THIRD time about WHY I brought up YOUR example. There is no point in arguing about something that is not customizable for the most part because you can't do anything about it. Assists are customizable and there is something you can do about it. You're not really helping your own cause by failing to understand what I'm saying. If you really don't get it, say so.

LonelyGaruga

10-12-2011, 03:13 AM

Seraph Sephiroth

10-12-2011, 03:18 AM

Ex counter was banned since you couldn't do ANYTHING about it at all and it usually caused a game ending hit, and it lead to extra damage from the ex burst itself. Which isn't nearly the case here. You can do something about this time around. and assist camping to two bars for an entire match just isn't as viable as you're making it out to be.

Khell

10-12-2011, 03:20 AM

LonelyGaruga

10-12-2011, 03:37 AM

Ex counter was banned since you couldn't do ANYTHING about it at all and it usually caused a game ending hit, and it lead to extra damage from the ex burst itself. Which isn't nearly the case here.

EX Cores and ranged attacks. Obviously that wasn't enough to keep it from being banned, however. Assists are also used way more frequently than EX was, due to how easy it is to build.

You can do something about this time around. and assist camping to two bars for an entire match just isn't as viable as you're making it out to be.

Not necessarily. Assist camping will get the majority of the cast assist punished, and provides an unfair advantage to those that can build it faster. If anything, EX Guards are LESS broken, because you have to actually hit your opponent to build it efficiently. Were that the case in DDFF, I imagine that it would be far more balanced than it is right now. Also, it's not nearly as viable to build even a single bar on OK compared to building 2 bars for Exdeath or Sephiroth. It's really not that hard, and is certainly an issue to be addressed, because that's exactly what people are doing. At least in DFF people weren't EX camping the entire match, unlike what's been going on with "casual" players.

Seraph Sephiroth

10-12-2011, 03:39 AM

You're in the back room, which means that you should be taking every possible situation into account when you can. That includes assist camping out a match regardless of whether it takes you 2 minutes or 2 hours to win. Tournaments bring out the best in people, but also can bring out the worst. Sure it hasn't happened -yet-, but what's stopping it from happening now that it's out in the open as a choice?

I'm pretty sure its right around the corner since we've had a few 30 minute matches already. Quite a few people camp actually, most people just give up and rush. Straight assist camping from both parties isn't viable and leads to a mind numbingly boring stale mate.

Khell

10-12-2011, 03:44 AM

Sure, most people give up, but when people are determined enough they probably won't give up their safety or advantage if they know their opponent will be waiting for something to change. It certainly happened more than a few times in DFF(if anyone could provide me with a number on the longest match that we had through DFF, that would be great). The situation is a little different, but the result may end up being the same anyway.

Spyder

10-12-2011, 06:41 AM

Straight assist camping from both parties isn't viable and leads to a mind numbingly boring stale mate.

Seeing this discussion brings back the bad good old memories. One personal example I can bring to you is my match against Tw1g007 in KAoS 2.0, a tournament that banned SnL. It was our first match of the round, stationed in Order's Sanctuary, my Squall vs his newly trained Warrior of Light. Squall's meta was so worn out by that last tournament that everyone and their mother knew the key formula to beating Squall: do nothing. Like one of the tournament participants once told me a long time ago when I faced him: "You can BF me all you want, Spyder, but you ain't landing that HP attack on me." The trick? Simply only react to Squall's HP attacks. Let him BF you to death (A bane of any non linker, btw, that is fixed in this game through the assist mechanic).

And that is what Tw1g007 did. He only reacted to my HP attacks and Mystic Flurry at the time, easily countered by Ascension. Without SnL, it was far more easier than ever to do. He just waited me out. So what did I do? I decided to play at the game and wait him out and also do nothing. In the end we ended up only going for the cores and for the rest of the time we stood at the opposite ends of Order's Sanctuary. The match took a little over than two hours to finish, and allowed me to recover my entire HP from critical levels to full without a regen build. In fact, I "wasted" seven or eight of my exmodes only for HP rejuvenation. On the off time, we were both giving RDF a headache over how much the other is a complete asshole for doing this (Sorry for the headache RDF <3). That's just an example of how far some people will go when given the chance.

------

I bring up this example for a number of things. One. The stalling issue. If it exists, people will abuse it. It's one of the reasons why ex countering was banned--because the only way to get around it is to stall for a core (let alone the free hits it gave). If when facing Sephiroth, you are forced to do nothing but stall the entire match until you get the two assist bars just so that Sephiroth couldn't interrupt any of your attacks mid way for a free HL hit, we are definitely facing a potential stalling problem (let alone the free hit problem).

Second. The "balancing" issue. Ex countering wasn't banned to "balance" the game because some characters could be staggered during ex counter and others couldn't. If the reason we give for banning the level 2 assist change is that not "every character can use an HP Attack after a Level 2 Assist Change and have an assured hit confirm," then we might as well ban the option of characters equipping HP links because not every character has the option to link brave to HP. Also, "balancing" is extremely subjective. And in KAoS 2.0, the reason to remove SnL was to try and "balance" the tiers because not every low tier character could cancel out SnL safely. Doesn't this sound familiar?

ChaosMuramasa

10-12-2011, 10:55 AM

If the reason we give for banning the level 2 assist change is that not "every character can use an HP Attack after a Level 2 Assist Change and have an assured hit confirm," then we might as well ban the option of characters equipping HP links because not every character has the option to link brave to HP. Also, "balancing" is extremely subjective.

While I understand what you're getting at full circle here, I believe (and I may be the only one that believes this) that in terms of HP Links and HP attacks is already pretty much covered. When you think about it, any character that cannot link a BRV to HP has some sort of other factor counteracting it. For example, Squall may not have an official BRV to HP link, but we know Thunder Barret puts in work. Prishe might not have a BRV to HP link but her BRV game is a whole is so ridiculously good that she's pretty much set for that.

Not sure if my view on this matter is still subjective, but that's how I feel. I just think that characters who can't BRV to HP link have their other options that will still help them out in battle, however when it comes to Level 2 Assist Changes, some characters really cannot do anything.

TKG09

10-12-2011, 02:41 PM

the majority of the characters in the game cannot HP after an assist change, and even a lot of the higher-tiered characters can't do it. to list some (in most circumstances): zidane, kuja, ultimecia, exdeath, cloud, wol, etc.

WoL and Zidane always can. Exdeath, Kuja and Cloud can as well, but only under a lucky circumstance, so I'm not listing those.

please just stop talking if you're going to say "oh those guys wont get used in tourneys anyways because theyre low tier lolol."

Are you fucking blind? The entire point of my post was that, as we stand, only a few characters are viable, and this is one of the factors that makes the low tiers unviable. I pretty much ended my post saying it would help, so stop acting as if I'm against banning them. Please, read before you reply, because this sounds as if you only read the first two sentences of my post and decided that this was enough for you to go ahead and flame me.

not everybody is a tier whore faggot like you,

Please stop flaming me. One of the points of the backroom is to have mature discussions, and at this point, this is totally what you're NOT doing. And while you're at it, stop flaming RDF and being racist, because one's nationality doesn't mean ANYTHING when it comes to discussing video games.

and ON TOP IF THIS, only certain characters can HP after AClvl2 regardless.

That's exactly what I said, when I said "The main two problems with this is that not every character can HP after their own lvl 2 assist change.", moreover, listing this fact as a PROBLEM.

it doesn't only pertain to the high or top tiers and it's not what determines the tier a character lands in.

I never said it was.

Replies in bold. And I hope you actually read them before jumping on and calling me a faggot.

Anyway, now that I have this covered, I will address the general discussion here: basically I said everything I had to say in my first post, but I will try to make my point clearer. I think that removing the Lvl 2 AC Counters would indeed help reduce the gap between the tiers and make some characters more viable. However, it will NOT stop people from assist camping, because people still have other reasons to assist camp; namely, getting overall protection from assists (locking them with the lvl 2 ACs) and being able to defend themselves from attacks, even if they're not able to counter afterward. This is why I think it wouldn't reduce the gaps by THAT much, but it's still worth trying. Besides, what I have in mind for actually balancing the game is EX-O, which won't happen in this tournament anyway, nor are we allowed to talk about it in this thread, which is why I haven't gotten into it in my first post.

By the way, Garuga, EX Guards were never banned, nor were they broken at any level. I think maybe what you have in mind is EX Guard Counter?

Also, as a final note, please ban the Lvl 2 AC Counter, not Lvl 2 ACs themselves. This would be like banning EXG instead of EXGC.

RDFMASTER

10-12-2011, 06:43 PM

While I understand what you're getting at full circle here, I believe (and I may be the only one that believes this) that in terms of HP Links and HP attacks is already pretty much covered. When you think about it, any character that cannot link a BRV to HP has some sort of other factor counteracting it. For example, Squall may not have an official BRV to HP link, but we know Thunder Barret puts in work. Prishe might not have a BRV to HP link but her BRV game is a whole is so ridiculously good that she's pretty much set for that.

From my understanding of what Spyder said, people will abuse any tactic if they really want to win. Not matter what we try to “balance” this game, there will be always things you can exploit with or without assist. However, this doesn’t mean we can find a ruleset/way to make it as competitive as possible which is why this sub-forum was made.

Linkers will always have the advantage over non-linkers in any ruleset. Your example show above is proof of that you missing experience from DFF in PvP. I really don’t like EX-O because it will limit some characters to land HP attacks easier than others.

Not sure if my view on this matter is still subjective, but that's how I feel. I just think that characters who can't BRV to HP link have their other options that will still help them out in battle, however when it comes to Level 2 Assist Changes, some characters really cannot do anything.

Their options still not good enough for PvP because it will really depend on your opponent’s mistakes. Prishe is a good sample because she seems like Squall of DFF. An extremely good BRV game but a terrible HP game. When I mean terrible, it’s meaning refer to how hard it can be to land HP attacks with her rather her HP attacks sucks overall. I am sure a lot people who mained BRV Kings characters in DFF were so frustrated when trying to land HP attacks against someone who knows exactly how to evade HP attacks.

Answer in blue.

Vamper62

10-12-2011, 07:15 PM

Fortunately, we have assists now to help with linking HP attacks on characters without reliable HP attacks. I mean without assists, Gabranth pretty much wouldn't ever land an HP attack. I know he is low tier, but still, the general concept applies to many other characters as well. The point being that while HP links are convenient, those who don't have them do have ways to connect HP attacks more reliably in DDFF with assists which saves them from being completely hopeless. The drawback being you lose an assist charge to use in an Assist Change (so it isn't completely balanced, but that is beyond the issue as certain things really can't be balanced so easy). I personally don't think AClv2 should be banned, but I do think linking an HP from one should (much like how EXC was in DFF). In most ways, they are pretty much the same (except assists are easier to build, and even more so on characters like Sephiroth).

Downpour

10-12-2011, 11:10 PM

Regarding your second statement---using an HP Attack after an Assist HP---what would be the point in that? You would do just about 0 to 5 HP damage unless you're carrying heavy BRV Recovery % bonus accessories or equipment. It would be smarter to use a BRV attack to reap the criticals that come with being at low BRV, especially if the enemy is near break.

I'm a bit split on whether or not we should remove using HP Attacks after a BRV Assist. On one hand, removing it would help some of the lower tiers manage, but on the other hand, you're also hurting their game as a whole because the characters that already have a below average HP game will have an even harder time.

I'm all for removing LV-2 Assist Changes, though.

Sorry about the delay, but the point is to use the HPA from the Assist not from your character. You can't use HPA after the HPA from your assist too.

Edit: you cant use HPA link after assist lv 1 too.

X-Zone

10-13-2011, 01:52 PM

I honestly see little point in banning the use of HPAs after assist attacks. As RDF and Vamper stated, assists make up for certain characters' inability to otherwise land an HPA. Ban the use of finishing moves there and those characters may as well just hoard the gauge for defence since they already have a strong brave game. And what does that lead to? More turtling.

Banning level 2 assist change, I also cannot agree on. I can see how it would help in reducing turtling, in that it would enable players to continue using assists offensively even with the opponent at full gauge (something only possible with an assist like Yuna at this stage), but the removal of this mechanic trivialises earning a full assist gauge in the first place; gauge that may have been earned fair and square as opposed to assist camping.

I have a scenario in mind. Let's say I finally earn a full gauge with my Golbez or Kefka, to use two dreadful gauge builders as an example. The opponent Sephiroth/Exdeath spams for a few seconds, hitconfirms an attack into level 1 assist. Now I can either watch my hard earned gauge get depleted by a combo into HPA, or I can level 1 assist change (level 2 assist change being banned) and also watch as my hard earned gauge disappears. Either way, my gauge is gone. Banning the advantages of a level 2 assist change does not change the fact that characters build gauge at different speeds.

Also, what of low tier characters who need a full gauge to utilise their offensive repertoire to its fullest? How are Kefka and Terra ever going to compete if the majority of their attacks are going to be assist punished the entire match, regardless of how much gauge they've earned? Banning level 2 assist change actually makes things harder for these lower tier characters.

Now granted, the depletion issue would be solved by banning HPAs after assists, but as I said that leads to other issues, and banning both the use of level 2 assist changes and HPAs after assists I personally feel is verging on nitpicking. If you're going to go that far, may as well remove assists altogether (which I would all in all vouch for, but now is not yet the time for that discussion).

On the other hand, banning the act of following up a level 2 assist change with an HPA/brv to HP link? That's reasonable. It's comparable to EX counters in DFF as has already been said, and only a few characters can make such use of it which I view as unbalanced. I'm with TKG. Ban the level 2 assist change counter, not the level 2 assist change.

axeeeeL

10-13-2011, 10:06 PM

a couple of suggestions:

- ban side by side
- ban rebellious soul
- ban kuja, sephiroth, jecht assists

there's little point in banning kuja, sephiroth, and jecht assists, but at the very least it would increase assist variety and maybe make the game less bland.

i do, however, think that rebellious soul and side by side should be banned for good. discuss.

Narolf

10-13-2011, 10:57 PM

- ban kuja, sephiroth, jecht assists

You don't put Aerith and Tidus in the same tiers as them?

Khell

10-13-2011, 11:04 PM

Yuna should also be considered since she's the other popular choice for avoiding assist locks.

At the very least, SBS is a good option to ban due to resets and loops existing for certain characters. By definition, the loops themselves aren't infinites so they technically can be used if the opponent can't figure out/doesn't know how to escape it. SBS is also just widening the difference between Assist and EX since there is no option for EX quite like SBS.

axeeeeL

10-13-2011, 11:39 PM

- ban kuja, sephiroth, jecht assists

You don't put Aerith and Tidus in the same tiers as them?

tidus has speed. that's really all he has. hop step assist doesnt really do much damage, and its range isnt as good as other assists, such as strike energy. thats not grounds for banning.

aerith is debatable.

Veysey

10-14-2011, 12:28 AM

You guys are headed down a slippery slope. Ban top tier assists/characters/whatever and people move on to high tiers. You still only end up with 2-3 viable assists... just, they're different. As for accessories - I find the most trouble comes from "Special" type accessories. Personally, I feel that all special accessories shouldn't be used... although I'm actually against the banning of accessories in customization. This kind of talk is more for standardization.

Also, the argument that HPs after assists: Vamp, yes, assists allow everyone to link and "even" the playing field BUT it also COMPLETELY kills cast diversity. Linkers are special because they generally either have a hard time landing attacks or deal low brv damage. Having HP links balances that. Characters that can't land easy HP attacks generally have strong and capable brave games that should be played off of.

It's these "give me the easy way out" mentalities that are stopping you all from unlocking your characters. I find if funny that in DFF, these characters had a HARDER time landing HP attacks (yes, most of them got BETTER) BUT the community stepped up and found ways to MAKE their character work. It never happened in DDFF because it never NEEDED to happen (thanks to assists being the best and most reliable tactic no matter who you played).

Also, some of you seem to forget - you're playing HUMAN opponents - who's opinions and tactics can be swayed and abused to your advantage. Tiers play a huge role, sure, but I am 100% serious when I say - this community plays like shit. Really, you all know you took the time to master assists - but how many of you actually worked on mastering your character? There are only a few people I see REALLY breaking down walls with characters and I'm not even convinced they've topped out any, either.

"But Veysey, you giant idiot; Assists ARE the game". Well you're not playing to win, kiddo. To win, you bring every advantage to the table and that doesn't just mean all the "cool new combos". That means breaking down every damn match up and realizing that half of them might require obscure assists and builds AS WELL AS differing play styles. I watch tournament replays and almost every player basically switches on auto-pilot and forsakes THINKING during their matches. I've seen a lot of matches where someone could have won easily despite having a disadvantage but failed simply because they've only focused on the assist aspect of the game. I kid you not, every one of you could get into top 3 of the next tournament if you stepped up your game as a whole. Think about that for a moment.

What am I trying to say? Man up and push your characters. Think outside the box instead of just bitching about this and that. Those of you crutching on assists need to stop now and actually play the rest of the game. You might just learn there is a game worth saving under all those assist bars. More importantly, you might see see other opportunities that will help you win.

Hollowed

10-14-2011, 12:38 AM

The discussion seems to be fixated on changing the game mechanics so that low tiers are viable and mid tiers can compete with high tiers. That won't work and leads to a series of arbitrary bannings. Basically, KAoS all over again. Understand that low tier characters have no place in a competitive environment. Now, how many characters are there that can actually compete with the top 3 (ExDeath, Seph, and Ulti)? Probably Squall, WoL, Firion, and Lightning. Is the game unplayable competitively with just 7 or so characters? No, not completely, judging by Ladders. The community won't last at this rate, though.

If you ban the top 3, then the mid tiers become much more viable. The high tiers still have dominance, but the number of usable characters would likely double.

Onto another topic that was brought up, I can see the reasoning behind the ban of attacking a staggered opponent after ACLV2. It has parallels to EXC. I would like to see the results of testing.

LonelyGaruga

10-14-2011, 12:47 AM

On the subject of banning assists, I find it rather pointless and unnecessary. As Veysey stated, people will move on to the next most consistent assists. However, some characters NEED those three (specifically, Kuja) assists if they want to land an HP consistently. By removing certain assists, you harm those character's ability to perform consistently.

For Side by Side and Rebellious Soul, that subject is debatable. Side by Side gets wrecked by EX Force heavy builds, and Rebellious Soul isn't even guaranteed to go off as long as the player hoards their BRV a little, or goes for a break near the end. However, there is no denying that those two accessories are quite powerful, and just because there's a way around them doesn't mean they aren't broken. Side by Side, in particular, seems to be a little too powerful to me. It makes EX builds more viable for your opponent, but SbS generally gives so much momentum to the user the moment they connect with an HP that it may not be enough. Rebellious Soul gives a free 2K+ BRV, which is questionable in itself, seeing how that's typically more than the stage BRV. Both accessories probably warrant testing, but I think they're not so bad that they need to be banned.

axeeeeL

10-14-2011, 01:09 AM

im surprised you didnt list kuja in your list of characters that can compete with the "top 3."

ultimecia isnt top tier, btw. she never was, she probably never will be.

TKG09

10-14-2011, 01:23 AM

Also, some of you seem to forget - you're playing HUMAN opponents - who's opinions and tactics can be swayed and abused to your advantage. Tiers play a huge role, sure, but I am 100% serious when I say - this community plays like shit. Really, you all know you took the time to master assists - but how many of you actually worked on mastering your character? There are only a few people I see REALLY breaking down walls with characters and I'm not even convinced they've topped out any, either.

I for one did. Even with assists, being able to land raw HP is very important on a competitive environment, because people will just spam their asses until they have 2 bars, at which point you can no longer simply do assist combos, but rather, you need those raw HPs so that depletion can kick in. Either that or you use EX. So, as a dedicated player, I decided I was not content with just an autopilot SF-only Sephiroth, and decided to actually push my game forward and try to play better; I learned basically what I can and what I can't punish, with what, general strategies against each character, landing HL and more; however, all that effort was in vain, because the assist system spoke louder; so most of the time I'd just find myself auto-piloting SF anyway, with an occasional punish. It also doesn't help that since Sephiroth is so good, Sephiroth dittos are one of the most common matchups in the game. I've played those a lot, to the point where pretty much no one can beat me at those, and I realized it basically boiled down to punishing misplaced SFs with SC then chase whoring for EX. This is why I have so much fun in EX-O; I can actually get to play Sephiroth for what he is, utilizing all of his tools, and god does it feel satisfactory when I land a HL.

What am I trying to say? Man up and push your characters. Think outside the box instead of just bitching about this and that. Those of you crutching on assists need to stop now and actually play the rest of the game. You might just learn there is a game worth saving under all those assist bars. More importantly, you might see see other opportunities that will help you win.

As I said, I tried to do this; but the assist system far overshadows any effort regarding that. Sure, and opportunity may appear once or twice, but hold little effect on the overall flow of the match. And even then these opportunities are rare, because players are just going to play safe anyway. Seriously, it's like this game has a lot to offer, but assists are suffocating everything, not letting the nice things come out and shine... the assists themselves are ugly and make DDFF look ugly as a whole even though it has a lotto offer, but then people don't wanna get rid of it because it's stepping out of their comfort zones, and then telling people to deal with it.

If you ban the top 3, then the mid tiers become much more viable. The high tiers still have dominance, but the number of usable characters would likely double.

Are you suggesting we should do it or is this just an hypothesis? Because I don't wanna see Sephiroth go.

Yeah, I've ranted too much, but I had to say it. Since pretty much half of what I wrote is about EX-O I think you might want to move this post to the other thread, Vey, but I think people won't read it there.

Hollowed

10-14-2011, 01:59 AM

I was just putting forth the idea for discussion as one possible solution. Realistically, we'd need a largely filled out tier list to make an informed decision one way or the other.

axeeeeL

10-14-2011, 03:01 AM

lol... TKG thinks its difficult to land HL. thats cute.

On the subject of banning assists, I find it rather pointless and unnecessary. As Veysey stated, people will move on to the next most consistent assists. However, some characters NEED those three (specifically, Kuja) assists if they want to land an HP consistently. By removing certain assists, you harm those character's ability to perform consistently.

For Side by Side and Rebellious Soul, that subject is debatable. Side by Side gets wrecked by EX Force heavy builds, and Rebellious Soul isn't even guaranteed to go off as long as the player hoards their BRV a little, or goes for a break near the end. However, there is no denying that those two accessories are quite powerful, and just because there's a way around them doesn't mean they aren't broken. Side by Side, in particular, seems to be a little too powerful to me. It makes EX builds more viable for your opponent, but SbS generally gives so much momentum to the user the moment they connect with an HP that it may not be enough. Rebellious Soul gives a free 2K+ BRV, which is questionable in itself, seeing how that's typically more than the stage BRV. Both accessories probably warrant testing, but I think they're not so bad that they need to be banned.

breaking someone and getting them to red health doesnt stop rebellious soul. once they regain base bravery, bonecrusher will activate, which is actually a really stupid design choice. there really wouldnt be ANY problems with rebellious soul if you could somehow stop it from activating completely (aside from OHKOing them before red health), but it isnt that way.

side by side should be banned for its loop potential.

LonelyGaruga

10-14-2011, 04:04 AM

breaking someone and getting them to red health doesnt stop rebellious soul. once they regain base bravery, bonecrusher will activate, which is actually a really stupid design choice. there really wouldnt be ANY problems with rebellious soul if you could somehow stop it from activating completely (aside from OHKOing them before red health), but it isnt that way.

Ah, that's what I was getting at with the hoarding BRV/getting a break. Get enough BRV, then defeat the opponent before they hit critical health. Either way, Rebellious Soul can give the opponent a bit of a hard time regardless of their actions. Either allow the opponent to get 2K+ BRV for free once they hit critical health, or alter your playstyle enough to bypass that factor, sacrificing possible HP hits and limiting your own options (since you typically don't want to land an HP when aiming for this unless it's going to KO the opponent).

Whether or not the influence of Rebellious Soul/Side by Side is too great or not is debatable, and should likely be tested. Generally, Rebellious Soul and Side by Side are the only questionable accessories for potential overpoweredness, so I don't think it would be necessary to test other accessories, just these two (for the time being). I agree with banning SbS just because it can be used to loop, due to the massive damage possible with one.

Vamper62

10-14-2011, 04:32 AM

If there is one accessory that should be banned, it would be SbS. It just creates loops (as everyone has already mentioned), which isn't very fun for the opposing player one bit...

Rebellious Soul is definitely something to look at in terms of banning as well. It is really hard to bypass an opponent getting to critical and going for a really big hit finisher (especially for chippers) and even more so since so many people use Achy+. In essence, the effectiveness of Rebellious Soul is similar to a large number of Summons (which I think we decided to ban) in the amount of BRV it can harvest (of course if it were a summon, it would be a pretty weak one overall). 2000+ BRV is quite a lot, and I've had my fair share of matches that have been swayed by this accessory tremendously, whether it was from mine or the opponents. However, since so many people use it, it doesn't really favor one side of the match to the other most times. Pretty much every character can use it just as effectively as another (unlike SbS). There is quite a bit to consider really, and I'd really like to hear more people give their opinion on it since we're on the subject right now.

X-Zone

10-14-2011, 10:38 AM

You guys are headed down a slippery slope. Ban top tier assists/characters/whatever and people move on to high tiers. You still only end up with 2-3 viable assists... just, they're different.

I agree with this. It's too early to be talking about banning characters for certain. FC was an exception in that he was undeniably ridiculous. Exdeath and Sephiroth are still overpowered in my opinion, but not at the same insurmountable level as FC. I read that in the brawl community they finally took the step of banning Meta Knight in tournament settings, but this was after years of collecting data. While we're a much smaller community without the opportunity to collect data on that scale, it's nevertheless too early. As for banning specific assists, ban Kuja/Jecht/Sephy, people indeed move on to Aerith/Tidus/Yuna. Ban these and assists start to become useless for punishing attacks/dodges/etc and become restricted only to combos and to their defensive use... which I certainly don't see being positive for the meta. It's perhaps a shame the latest custom tournament turned out to be EX official again because it could have been a good opportunity to observe whether the high tier assists consequently become overused, or whether the variety indeed increases as Axel suggested.

I do find it a little presumptuous of Veysey, however, to speak as if all of us are guilty of relying solely on assist game when there are a number among us who already play with assists disabled. Nevertheless I agree with his point about assists damaging cast diversity, but I really don't see banning the use of HPAs after assists as a solution to this, as already stated. The trouble is as TKG says: the assists outweigh the rest of the game's strategic options. So when the assist game offers the most reward, people are naturally going to mainly hone and consequently rely on the assist game, which of course is already growing extremely stale.

On another note, however, I am all for the banning of SbS due to its loop potential and that it risks pushing the balance even further into assist favour. I also support banning Rebellious Soul. Assist charges by themselves are already a colossally dumb comeback feature, and having an additional 2k free bravery to further assist these (frankly unearned) comebacks strikes me as nothing short of ridiculous. I'm all for comeback victories, but not when they're provided by an ill thought out game mechanic further assisted by an ill thought out accessory. You should not have to worry about finishing an opponent with a 3k HPA or more in fear of one of these free comebacks... it is in practice close to impossible for many characters with weaker brave game to achieve such a finishing blow against a competent opponent. Now we can't ban the game mechanic with assists enabled; but we can ban the accessory.

LonelyGaruga

10-14-2011, 06:18 PM

For the record, nobody mentioned actually wanting to ban characters, only specific assists and accessories. Side by Side/Rebellious Soul ban seems to be heavily supported.

As for accessories - I find the most trouble comes from "Special" type accessories. Personally, I feel that all special accessories shouldn't be used... although I'm actually against the banning of accessories in customization. This kind of talk is more for standardization.

I don't really see why this would be a good idea. Just two are potentially broken. Banning all special accessories would make EX builds trash, making assists dominate the game even more than they already do.

Nevertheless I agree with his point about assists damaging cast diversity, but I really don't see banning the use of HPAs after assists as a solution to this, as already stated. The trouble is as TKG says: the assists outweigh the rest of the game's strategic options. So when the assist game offers the most reward, people are naturally going to mainly hone and consequently rely on the assist game, which of course is already growing extremely stale.

I agree, banning HP attacks after an assist is unnecessary and doesn't really help anything. The only action I think should be prohibited is, as has been repeatedly stated, attacking after a level 2 assist change. I also agree that assists just dominate the game no matter what you do, if they're involved. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it does mean that more emphasis is placed on being "good" at using assists instead of the character being played.

Spyder

10-15-2011, 06:54 AM

It's important to note that none of the recognized top tiers can use the SBS well as some of the lower tiered characters. The only time an SBS set overpowered the entire cast was when it was put on FChaos, stationed in Prima Vista. After Dissidence-D, none of the ladders or custom tournaments were dominated by SBS sets. I only remember two characters (Kain and Exdeath) sporting the SBS accessory, while everyone else ran ex sets. The argument I'm seeing in this thread is that it's "potentially" broken, but I've yet to actually see it live up to it. It's a damn nice accessory to use, no doubt, but it certainly has yet to prove to be anything overpowered, broken, cheap, or unfair.

As for the Rebellious Soul, it's not a secret when your opponent has it equipped. While I do see where this type of argument is coming from:

You should not have to worry about finishing an opponent with a 3k HPA or more in fear of one of these free comebacks... it is in practice close to impossible for many characters with weaker brave game to achieve such a finishing blow against a competent opponent.

I ask you this: is it not considered skillful to be able to change your playstyle in such a way to make one of the assets your opponent is using useless? "You should not have to worry about finishing an opponent with a 3k HPA," sounds like an argument that's basically stating that you should not have to worry about adapting to situations, but rather rid of the tools that force you to do so.

Characters with a weaker brave game are generally linkers. And while 3k HPA sounds hefty for a linker, you are forgetting that linkers have the benefit of completely restoring their brave in a double hp combo with the help of an assist. It'll take around 2k HP attack to wallrush and combo with another assist to completely bypass this accessory without breaking the opponent. Many linkers also have the option of using a brave attack instead of an HP attack at the end of their links, which surmounts to damage equal to non linkers in most cases. With an assist combo, it's quite possible to get that needed break, so long as you decide to change up your style and go for a brave game.

While it's true that not every linker has the option to use a brave attack instead of an hp attack or are as powerful as some other linkers, but remember that we are not trying to cater to any character, nor are we trying to balance the game to make sure that each character has the same options as every other.

I do agree that RS is a powerful accessory. However, I do not want it to be banned for the line of reasoning that follows something akin to displeasure of changing ones style or because of discomfort. This game has provided us many options, including assists. Not all assist combos should be followed up by an HP attack. You as a skilled player should be the judge of how to use assists properly, instead of squandering them off at any first chance one gets.

Adapt. Improve. Think and challenge yourselves. First try to move around an obstacle before removing it. It'll go a long way, considering not all obstacles can be removed.

X-Zone

10-15-2011, 12:53 PM

It's important to note that none of the recognized top tiers can use the SBS well as some of the lower tiered characters.

Well, as concerns characters that can benefit strongly from SbS, examples that immediately spring to mind for me are Onion Knight, Golbez, Zidane, Kain, and Exdeath... I don't think tiers really come into this.

The argument I'm seeing in this thread is that it's "potentially" broken, but I've yet to actually see it live up to it.

I was thinking of this type of occurence. Which doesn't even look difficult to set up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51vGjZLp2u0&feature=channel_video_title

I do agree that RS is a powerful accessory. However, I do not want it to be banned for the line of reasoning that follows something akin to displeasure of changing ones style or because of discomfort.

My point on Rebellious Soul, Spyder, was that it further boosts the already ridiculous comeback mechanic that is assist charges. Thinking from the other point of view: were I to see a chipper obviously attempting to bypass my Achy/BTTW/RS setup by stacking brave, I would be delighted in response because henceforth the likelyhood of them punishing a reckless dodge with an HPA would drop hugely... so hereon (depending somewhat on the opponent character of course) I can be as reckless as I like about my dodges and expect plenty more blocking opportunities. And if they do surprise me and punish with an HPA, fantastic, there's a free 2k brave for me as well as the advantages of boosted crit rate and free gauge... which incidentally, will further limit the opponent because should they whiff an HPA and get hit, that's full assist gauge for me.

You make valid points on the options still open, but it nevertheless feels to me like one's options are becoming far more limited at this stage of the fight. While the player who stands to benefit retains all their options, if not more thanks to the lessened likelyhood of a weak defence being punished by HPAs, consequently making predicting their actions easier.

That was admittedly more a rant on the mechanics of assist charge, but I hope you see what I'm trying to say. Rebellious Soul by itself, I would not view as a problem. It's because it stacks on top of Crit HP Assist Charges, Back To The Wall, and Achy abilities that I view it as a problem. With these factors combined, it is not uncommon to see a player get completely outplayed yet still snatch victory... I've seen it occur multiple times in group battle. And it's not as if players need these... it is completely possible to pull off a comeback without any of these comeback gimmicks (for lack of a better word). Now were we to start talking about banning the abilities I listed, we'd be opening up a whole new minefield... hence why I say, remove Rebellious Soul.

Bloodsword83

10-17-2011, 01:22 AM

Well, as concerns characters that can benefit strongly from SbS, examples that immediately spring to mind for me are Onion Knight, Golbez, Zidane, Kain, and Exdeath... I don't think tiers really come into this.

Personally, I don't believe Exdeath can benefit so strongly from Side by Side. Exdeath is one of the best Assist builders in the game. He doesn't really need to use SbS to get assist because he can build up bars very quickly and safely via RP. The only way I could justify using SbS is to get some boosters to be on all the time. But I generally feel that EX/Assist is better on Exdeath because SbS's main function doesn't have the same effect on Exdeath's gameplay that it has on, say, Onion Knight or Zidane.

That's not to say I don't use Side by Side on my Exdeath. It's mostly for the booster(s) that I can keep on all the time with it.

axeeeeL

10-17-2011, 05:34 AM

i dont see why people keep arguing over why rebellious soul shouldnt be banned; there are plenty of comeback factors in this game already.

BttW gives 50% crit and it's one of the best crit skills in the game. that was already fine as is in DFF, and now we have full assist charges...

X-Zone

10-17-2011, 01:42 PM

Personally, I don't believe Exdeath can benefit so strongly from Side by Side. Exdeath is one of the best Assist builders in the game. He doesn't really need to use SbS to get assist because he can build up bars very quickly and safely via RP.

On second thought you're right Bloodsword, it isn't necessary on Exdeath, I should've thought that example through more thoroughly. In that case, while it's true the very top tiers don't benefit as much from SbS, my point is it's not a tool that only the low tiers benefit from. And since it's therefore not something that would exclusively allow low tiers to fight back, I really don't see a tool that allows for loops to be in any way beneficial to the metagame.

Also, what Axel said. Is there any sensible argument for keeping Rebellious Soul in the game? As it stands, it's further worsening the already unbalanced comeback mechanics of the game.

Downpour

11-08-2011, 02:29 PM

Okey, after some time out and without playing Dissidia, Downpour is back.

And now is time to debate some things about the actual ruleset.

First in my opnion the assist lv 1 -> HPA is killing the actual metagame, we should ban assist lv 1 - HPA because is very awful to play against some character like Sephiroth who can potentially farm assist bar and land brave atks easy

So to fix that problem we should only allow assist lv 2 - HPA, it's like a good trade for me ( You lost 2 bars to land a free HPA on me, bro)

Another thing: don't allow to call assist after an HPA. free critical isn't really good, yes im looking for you critical dancer magestic kuja.

We should, only for test, ban critical assist up or ban Kuja in some ladder only to see how it will affect the game

And if we remove the assist lv 1 -> HPA we can allow summoms again for another test in ladders.

so that's all for while~

Obs: Sorry about my bad eng <3

axeeeeL

11-09-2011, 05:53 AM

Kurayami

11-09-2011, 06:54 AM

How is he contradicting himself? He just thinks BRV assists are killing the metagame, so we should use HP assists instead.

X-Zone

11-09-2011, 10:13 AM

we should ban assist lv 1 - HPA because is very awful to play against some character like Sephiroth who can potentially farm assist bar and land brave atks easy

So to fix that problem we should only allow assist lv 2 - HPA, it's like a good trade for me ( You lost 2 bars to land a free HPA on me, bro)

Another thing: don't allow to call assist after an HPA. free critical isn't really good, yes im looking for you critical dancer magestic kuja.

Then why even bother with Assist level 2 - HPA? You'll be landing HP damage from the level 2 assist as it is. If you were to go about this change, you'd have to make it simpler and just altogether ban the act of inflicting HP damage after an assist attack. It's confusing otherwise.

Ideas which I'm completely against anyway. It just seems unworkable. Ban calling an assist after an HP attack? You got outplayed by eating that HP attack in the first place, suffer the consequences. Trying to limit people's options like this needlessly confuses things. The only such change I can agree with is the ban of attacking after level 2 assist changes, a change that would only affect a few characters and be easy to adapt to.

To be honest, I think we should be concentrating more on the customisation options than trying to tinker with what players can/can't do during a fight. On that note, I still haven't heard a convincing argument for keeping Rebellious Soul.

Downpour

11-09-2011, 01:49 PM

Sorry, Axel, but Assist lv 1 - HPA isn't the same thing as Assist lv 2 - HPA.

In the actual metagame everyone only use assist lv 1 to land HPA <3 look your tidus~ you just land a HS call aerith and use some BRV with Link to HPA or look to all sephiroths SC -> Assist -> SF -> HL, pretty cool huum.

The idea is about remove that "loop" and add some new pretty sexy combos in the fight and after all you can still land a HPA, but you need 2 bars, but now the value is right in my opnion.

Another thing is remove the assist change lv 2. when both fighters got 2 assist bars, in my opnion, the game become a camper game, you just think about land a HPA to remove half of the assist bar of your enimie and it took like 2 minutes in a real match of pure pressure in your head.

RDFMASTER

11-09-2011, 02:52 PM

How is he contradicting himself? He just thinks BRV assists are killing the metagame, so we should use HP assists instead.

If SE make HP Assist attack a little more better then we could use it. However, this isn't the case which falls into being useless for most of the cast.

ALSO, CAN WE PLEASE STOP DISCUSSING ANYTHING THAT IS FAR AWAY FROM WHAT THIS RULESET IS REALLY FOR? Any discussion about banning something that isn't summons, SbS or RS can be taking another time. We trying to focus on a tournament that isn't much different from DissidenceD. (Yes, Trololo Chaos will still be banned).

X-Zone

11-09-2011, 05:20 PM

RDF just hit the nail on the head to be honest.

Summons, SbS, Rebellious Soul... I, for one, say: eliminate the lot.

Kurayami

11-09-2011, 05:42 PM

The only issue I have is with the banning of SBS. Sure, it gives people an assist bar after a HP, but the top tiers benefit less from it than those such as Onion Knight and Golbez, so it could be said that it helps balance things slightly. Plus equipping SBS means that you have to forsake Ex Mode/Revenge, which are pretty powerful tools.

Veysey

11-09-2011, 09:50 PM

I have to agree - some characters rely on SbS to keep up. Higher tiers don't need it and (in my opinion) usually hurt themselves by equipping it (as in there was a better build they could have ran). Thing is, you ban SbS and a lot of mid-tiers are all of a sudden gimped against higher tier characters. I know Jecht and Cloud rely on it in a few match ups against the big boys. I can see where Kura is getting his idea that Golbez and OK rely heavily on it, as well. Sad thing is - SbS usually helps these lower characters stand up to the stronger characters (who don't NEED SbS) so if you ban it, welcome to tier gap city.

As for Rebellious Soul, one of my personal strategies against it is to (uh oh!) use the fact that SbS will give me a full assist bar after landing an HP attack. I try to manage their HP best I can and deal my damage when they're just above Achy+ critical HP amount (regardless of whether they have it equipped). I usually try for ~1.5k brv (depending on how high their HP is) on the first HP hit, they get the brave, I hit them with an assist combo into another damaging combo and because their brave is so high, I end up doing a lot more damage than normal. It's almost like I'm able to sap some of that brave for "free" (no accessory slot) and use it against them.

Sure, they're still left with a fair bit of brave (~2-3k most times), but because of that high damage, I'd say a good chunk of the time, they're left with less than 500HP - obviously sometimes I outright kill them BECAUSE they had Bone Crusher. I WILL say, if they use safety ring, they can get a little more out of Rebellious Soul BUT that takes two slots + multipliers to make it worthwhile. The counter strategy works for anyone who can link/HP combo and (in my opinion) is a fairly viable counter strategy that "speeds up" the end game (where charges run amok - something people like to complain about).

I'm not sure what other strategies can be used to abuse the fact that the opponent has Bone Crusher since I like mine and it works for my style, but I never really thought Bone Crusher was broken and don't care to see it banned, either.

Summons, you all already know my stance on that.

Basically - I'm of the mindset to ban as little as possible in Official Rulings... even coming back to the game and playing around a bit - I see no reason to ban anything that hasn't already been banned. Let people get creative and IF only one or two strategies present themselves as completely dominant THEN look at why and how - then decide if something needs to be banned. Personally, I'd like to see at least one more "open" tournament to see what kind of broken setups people can abuse - including summon abuse builds. That gives everyone a final opportunity to PROVE what shit they think is broken really is (and maybe get woken up when they realize their "broken" tactics are pure and wholesome compared to their opponents XD)

Now, in response to Downpour/RDF/that topic:

First, I want to say, I've let you guys go pretty off topic in a lot of places and ways in here because you've all demonstrated your ability to eventually get back on track when the other topics get dealt with. I ALSO feel it's important to let you guys just "flow" because some really good stuff has come out of the discussions that eventually got slightly derailed. You guys always keep the information good and relative - so I see no problem at all with a little off topic discussions here and there - just keep with the conversation, offer something valuable, and exhibit respect and you won't see me caring if you want to bring up something like what Downpour did.

As for Downpour; How do you deal with someone like Jecht? Sure, you can say "No HPA after assists" but Jecht builds assist like ass. He keeps it just as bad, too. He's the kind of character who is built to spend it right away and then play patience again (in a lot of match ups). Also, in an online situation, you can't be 100% consistent with his combos because visual, audio, and input ALL lag at times without set patterns to get used to. Those assists are sometimes what gives you the second chance you needed to do something right with him. And even if you did let Jecht - then it becomes unfair to the rest of the cast that he can and they can't. I know a few other characters don't actively look to preserve their assist meters, either (since they don't have the tools to do it efficiently/effectively), so by saying we can't HP after assists, you've actually widened tier gaps :X I don't think it's a good idea overall (incidentally, one I've personally played with, though).

Downpour

11-10-2011, 12:15 AM

As for Downpour; How do you deal with someone like Jecht? Sure, you can say "No HPA after assists" but Jecht builds assist like ass. He keeps it just as bad, too. He's the kind of character who is built to spend it right away and then play patience again (in a lot of match ups). Also, in an online situation, you can't be 100% consistent with his combos because visual, audio, and input ALL lag at times without set patterns to get used to. Those assists are sometimes what gives you the second chance you needed to do something right with him. And even if you did let Jecht - then it becomes unfair to the rest of the cast that he can and they can't. I know a few other characters don't actively look to preserve their assist meters, either (since they don't have the tools to do it efficiently/effectively), so by saying we can't HP after assists, you've actually widened tier gaps :X I don't think it's a good idea overall (incidentally, one I've personally played with, though).

Veyvey, well you're right about Jecht, but we need to try something new. it's really boring to play DDFF right now. People just stick on farm assist and use assist lv 1 to land a HPA or farm 2 bar to become "invunerable" in the brv game.

And in my point of view you can totally use the full combo with Jecht, call assist and build brv, but this time you can't finish with HPA.

Another thing is the assist change lv 2, the problem in my opnion isn't the "free hit" who some character can use, but the assist lock. in other words is a mechanic who actually help you in all ways and f*ck your opp in all ways (low risk, high reward)

Now about the accs and summom:

SbS: Isn't a big issue in my opnion to the meta, only work in some character and actually they really need to be "effective" to play against some g0d tier characters.

Rebellious Soul: a must have in all build, everyone equip it today... so we can try a ladder without it

Summoms: I actually like it, but some bans in the cast should be good, again... we can try a ladder without

EDIT: I NEED TO SLEEP RIGHT NOW , SO I'LL FIX ALL PROBLEMS WITH THE GRAMA TOMORROW DD: so take it easy guys!

axeeeeL

11-10-2011, 03:55 AM

i interpreted your post wrong. i thought you were referring to assist changes.

either way, it's a stupid idea. stop trying to limit the mechanics of the game.

Downpour

11-10-2011, 12:18 PM

i interpreted your post wrong. i thought you were referring to assist changes.

either way, it's a stupid idea. stop trying to limit the mechanics of the game.

So why ban summom and chase?

stop trying to limit the mechanics of the game!

IIRC you HATE chase with all your heart

RDFMASTER

11-10-2011, 06:14 PM

So why ban summom and chase?

stop trying to limit the mechanics of the game!

IIRC you HATE chase with all your heart

He hates it but I has not see him actually thinking or saying it needs to be banned.

Narolf

11-10-2011, 06:21 PM

On the topic of chases, is there anyone else thinking they are a problem?

X-Zone

11-10-2011, 06:59 PM

On the topic of chases, is there anyone else thinking they are a problem?

While I detest DDFF chase with a passion, I can't justify banning it.

Kurayami

11-10-2011, 07:00 PM

I liked someone's idea of only allowing one attack during chase... it was probably one of Nero's ideas.

TKG09

11-10-2011, 07:06 PM

What's the point of this? To make chase not a big deal while still being able to use it for EX? Sounds like a good idea.

Narolf

11-10-2011, 07:09 PM

http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?7391-012-s-Chase-Sequence&p=226934&viewfull=1#post226934
http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?10289-Hypothesis-Can-we-make-chases-more-skill-based-with-visual-cues

Downpour

11-10-2011, 08:08 PM

Chase is okey at least for me, but some abuses like some random move -> Chase -> Aerith/Kuja/Sephiroth (i'm not talking about call assist after a chase, but in the middle of chase) isn't real good for the game

It's okey, a good use of Aerith, Kuja or Sephiroth, but you're gaining EX and BRV pretty easy with that combo

Veysey

11-10-2011, 08:17 PM

I see no reason to ban chase. Not only can you actually train yourself to react to it (if you actually care), but you can also use brave, HP, and meter amounts (and builds) to get an idea of what the opponent would WANT to attack you with at that point in time.

Narolf

11-10-2011, 08:40 PM

While I detest DDFF chase with a passion, I can't justify banning it.Stop getting drunk before playing DDFF. The fact and the matter are, Spyder and Veysey approve chasing. Speaks a lot about us, youngsters.

Kurayami

11-10-2011, 08:43 PM

Did they give reasoning? Chase is a tricky one. Some people love it, others whine about it. Keep it or get rid of it, you'll always be displeasing someone.

Also,

Stop getting drunk before playing DDFF.

/10chars.

kewldude475

11-10-2011, 08:45 PM

What about banning assists after chase allrush? Seems a bit ridiculous, but...just wanted people's opiion.

Also, (using myself as an example) I physically cannot react to chase. By the time I am reacting, the game has already said "It's too late) and you have to just sit there and be a meatbag while your opponent gets Free EX and damage (which happened to me in the last ladder I participated in). I'm pretty sure most people would agre it is just a guessing game, or that they do not rely on their own reactions, and just guess. that you are forced into if your opponent so chooses. It's just infuriating imo to lose a battle because of guessing wrong in a minigame. Maybe empty chasing could still be allowed (in case someone chases by accident) but in my opinion, chase is a terrible way of playing this. Especially if this is based on skill rather than just guessng what your opponent will do correctly.

EDIT: Even though I detest chase, banning an entire game mechanic seems extreme, even to me. But this isn't like DFF where you could dodge chase if you had a reasonable amount of reaction skill.

Kurayami

11-10-2011, 08:50 PM

Chase comes down to one thing: luck. Well, skill too, but luck plays a big part in it. The thing is, many mechanics in this game come down to luck; assist charges, critical damage, chase, even wallrush to an extent. But if the game didn't have any of these mechanics, and it was only based on skill, i'd probably have got bored and quit a long time ago.

kewldude475

11-10-2011, 08:54 PM

But chase is an entire "minigame" that your opponent forces you into if they choose. If you get a counterattack critical boost, it is because your opponent used a punishable move at a bad time, for instance. If your opponent is Lightning, they can almost force you into chase a lot since she has Thunder. Or Tidus and his Hop Step (I'm sure some of you saw axeL's HOp Step>Aerith>Chase combos). Even skilled players just can't avoid their opponents getting chase opportunities most of the time.

Kurayami

11-10-2011, 08:58 PM

Narolf

11-10-2011, 09:03 PM

Did they give reasoning? Chase is a tricky one. Some people love it, others whine about it. Keep it or get rid of it, you'll always be displeasing someone.

Also,

/10chars.
Linked to Spyder's reasoning in my previous post, which is the same as Veysey's. Chases are usually more easy to come by in local, as there isn't that slight input loss occurring at random like in online.

kewldude475

11-10-2011, 09:06 PM

Well it's your fault for getting hit by a chase-entering attack in the first place. If they have the opportunity to do it, why shouldn't they? It might end badly for them, so they're taking a risk by initiating chase.

This is a similar argument I put for Off. Skill. It has insane damage, but it's your fault for getting hit anyway (don't remember the response people put up).

You could also argue for an Off. Skill esque tournament. High damage, but it is your fault for getting hit, and you can also deal insane damage, so they balance each other out.

Anyway, you're going to get hit eventually, you could just run away forever to avoid Thunder/Hop Step/Strike Energy/Double Cut but what fun is that? At least part of the intenion of tournaments is having fun I would imagine. And to some, fighting chase spam is just not fun.

Kurayami

11-10-2011, 09:08 PM

Chase doesn't break you in one hit, but Off. Skill does =P

kewldude475

11-10-2011, 09:09 PM

But it's your fault by getting hit by the attack that led to chase in the first place right?

TKG09

11-10-2011, 09:11 PM

And to some, fighting chase spam is just not fun.

And for some, it can be extremely fun. That's just like bashing someone for using Sephiroth/Exdeath just because they are not fun/boring/whatever when it is in fact possible to have a lot of fun with those

kewldude475

11-10-2011, 09:15 PM

I personally don't really bash people for using characters. At least you are still playing the game instead of some minigame that can potentially give your opponent a ton of free damage+EX, and/or a free asist combo.

In fact, usually I have a lot of fun fighting Sephiroth.

Narolf

11-10-2011, 09:20 PM

And for some, it can be extremely fun. That's just like bashing someone for using Sephiroth/Exdeath just because they are not fun/boring/whatever when it is in fact possible to have a lot of fun with thoseThis is true. The whole "I'm tired to see people use Squall, Exdeath and Sephy" mainly comes from Youtube anyway, as Dissidia remains boring to watch.

Veysey

11-10-2011, 09:32 PM

Woah... how are you guys getting the idea that chase is luck based? O.O Pro tip: You're doing it wrong.

OK, so let's start with Kewldude - you can't react to it yet because you haven't put in the work. You couldn't react to Shadow Bringer when you first seen it, either, could you? I bet by now, if you're expecting it at some point, you're able to deal with it a lot better. Chase is the same. By not exposing yourself to it - that's the reason you never got comfortable with it.

It's the same with anything, really. I'm TERRIBLE at combos in video games. I am simply not consistent enough BUT look at who I ended up playing? You know what happened after putting in some HARD work with him? I was able to combo. Same thing in other games like Street Fighter - I'm TERRIBLE with combos and drop them all the time - but I don't whine and say "combos are luck based", I hit the training room and practice. It takes me about 3 months of nightly practice to get a combo down to the point where I can do it live - on command. Have you put that kind of work into chase yet? Maybe you'll find that chase really isn't that bad if you actively try to get better at it.

Now, as for the luck point everyone seems insistent on bringing up. I'm going to compare chase to REAL fighting games for a moment. Activating chase is like landing an untechable knockdown on your opponent - they are now forced to partake in your "50/50 guessing game". They can choose to simply not attack and give you space (not activate chase for DDFF comparison). They can make it LOOK like they're going to attack - but not (activate chase, but not do anything). They can go for (in games that allow it) an ambiguous cross-up - which is a 50/50 guessing game. Depending on the attack they use, they'll either hit you on the front or from behind - you won't have time to react, so it's all a GUESS as to where they want to attack (HP or brv for DDFF). In order to properly defend against this, you need to use all your previous experiences in the battle (opponent habits) as well was life and meter amounts to get an idea as to what they WANT to do. Guessing wrong can put you back on the ground and in the exact same situation (they continue the chase after a hit). It all SEEMS like a guessing game, but really, it's more about strategy and counter strategy.

Now, yes, in fighters you are "able to do whatever you want on wake up", but let me tell you, these choices are often an illusion. You still have two choices if the player knows what they're doing - and those choices are react to something from the left and react to something from the right. Yes, there are all sorts of exceptions and it's much more involved; but I think the general concept of knockdowns fits in with chase very well. And how many people do you see saying "We shouldn't be able to attack someone after scoring a knockdown"? (I don't think I've EVER heard this, personally)

What's more, there is lots of time to react to chase in DDFF. If you want a comparison; look at half the throw tech windows in most modern fighters - most of them give you SUBSTANTIALLY less time to react to a throw compared to chase, yet players who put the time in can REACT to throw attempts.

I guess what I want to say is instead of whining about it - be proactive and work on covering that weakness you personally have as a player. Try looking at it more objectively and stop trying to shape DDFF into the game you FEEL it should have been. If you want to play and be good at it, learn to play on as many strengths as you can and cover as many weaknesses as you can.

Now just to say, the ONLY issue I've EVER had with chase (and it's a minor one) is that if you initiate chase, you aren't forced to attack. In my opinion, if you press that X button, you should have been committed to chase.

Narolf

11-10-2011, 09:39 PM

In fact, usually I have a lot of fun fighting Sephiroth.So do I, it's challenging. Again, most of the bashing this game received came from the channel's subscribers, people who are looking for entertaining matches solely to satisfy their viewing pleasure. Retired pros (Aveot, Ehx, Yunoa and so forth) also called the game bad, but notice how all of them were, more or less, hardcore competitive gamers in the first place: Aveot with LoL, Ehx with fighters in general, etc.

My point being, people took this game for something it was never meant to be. Dissidia remains handheld gaming after all, and even then, it does fit the bill as a reliable competitive game for handhelds... which is why I'm getting more and more tired of that bashing, completely uncalled for.

kewldude475

11-10-2011, 09:41 PM

Hell, I can't react to Shadow Bringer now. Just dodging. A real problem with chase for me is the fact that at a certain point, even before the chase attack hits, it still will not let you press X to dodge.

Narolf

11-10-2011, 09:43 PM

even before the chase attack hits, it still will not let you press X to dodge.

I know the feeling, but this only happens online, not in local.

Kurayami

11-10-2011, 09:46 PM

even before the chase attack hits, it still will not let you press X to dodge.

I know the feeling, but this only happens online, not in local.

Yeah, local > online. Too bad I never really have a challenge in local because all the people I know are abysmal. Their Exdeath loses to my Terra frequently xD

Veysey

11-10-2011, 09:46 PM

Happens in local for me? It's just timing it wrong is all. Definitely easier than Jechts combos - but there IS only a certain window where you can press stuff in chase. I WILL admit that online sometimes screws up my timing... but as a Jecht main, complaining about that is laughable XD

TKG09

11-10-2011, 10:44 PM

I think he was talking about lost inputs in lag.

Which is something I love. It gives me free easy hits on chase :3 people can't dodge my attacks at all

Narolf

11-10-2011, 10:59 PM

Inputs can indeed get lost in slight last at times: you think the match is lagfree, you're sure you pressed cross to dodge but... the game didn't register it, actually, so that you end up frustrated while getting hit. People shouldn't have problems with chases against you.

Downpour

11-11-2011, 12:23 AM

We're not talking about how funny is to play against your lag, TKG.

TKG09

11-12-2011, 12:34 PM

I'm bringing up the idea of banning Final EXRs. They are already banned in all other rulesets, so why not on the Official one? I know you can assist change out of it, but that doesn't make it fine. If you don't have 2 bars, you are pretty much fucked. And a lot of characters can't build assist at all due to lack of safe attacks (they rely on SbS mostly (like Golbez))so they either hit the opponent and get EXR'd or they try to shadowbox and get punished, then assist combo'd. Even if they do manage to assist change they're left with no assist again, meaning one punish=death.

Cclavier

11-12-2011, 03:14 PM

I concur. Final EXR clearly benefit's characters with safer assist building capabilities. That mechanic makes it nearly impossible for certain characters to get back into a match if their opponent has 2 bars of assist and a full EX meter. Jecht, Golbez and Onion knight are probably the most severe examples of how bad it is, but I'm sure other characters are raped by it as well.

X-Zone

11-12-2011, 05:01 PM

I agree with this. Final EXR is an ugly way to end a match, for which some characters have no way out. I would be in favour of implementing this ban.

On another note, I feel I should state that discussion's made me rethink my stance on SbS.

Kurayami

11-12-2011, 05:09 PM

I agree with this. Final EXR is an ugly way to end a match, for which some characters have no way out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wadqP_WkiM

Hypocrite ;3

Joking aside (I seem to say that alot these days) I would be in favour of this ban. It's not very fun when Bartz gets a full ex gauge and there's no way you can win.

Veysey

11-12-2011, 06:40 PM

I'm sort of against banning EXRs. Granted I'm certainly not overly knowledgeable on all the inner workings on them (thanks for exposing me, Axel XD) but they are workable after I found out a key point - that you can still block attacks/stagger the opponent and they can't EXR you until they actually hit you. For Jecht, this made a pretty big difference in how I handle a full EX bar now since blocks create EX force to help you boost your own bar. In the end, I like how it works and unless you're running no EX/no assist, you should always have options (regardless of how lame those options are).

On the flip side - if someone has the game close enough to an ending, it can and WILL grind everything to a halt. Strategies change, action stops, and it becomes a game of strict patience. The attacker doesn't want to do anything risky or act in a way that will let the defender build EX/Assist. On the flip side, the defender is looking to build as much as they can without touching the opponent outside of strictly naked HP attacks (no brv)and some depletion. It's funny, though, because EXR in general brings about this mentality - not just final EXRs which makes me wonder why none of you consider they should just simply be banned altogether.

Now call me fickle, but I don't like the idea of banning final EXRs without banning final assist > HPA. I think it's a little unfair that you have characters like Bartz who make excellent use of EXR to put together a solid game where he RELIES on EXR not only for big damage - but to also land his HP hits a lot of the time. Who are we to judge and say someone should change their strategy to suit our personal preferences? "You can't use EXR to deal final blows, but I can use assists to do it.". We're basically saying "Play our personal version of Dissidia or get out". If you want to be reasonable, I think we should step back and say that no character in any circumstance can land a final hit outside of their own merits as a character or accept the game for what it is and just turtle the heck out of them at that point in the game.

In the end, I think my opinion still stands at "leave the game as it is for official" despite how much I hate how these elements slow down the late game. If you want to tweak a bunch of stuff, I seriously think you all should consider putting your heads together, making something standardized that works for a majority of the cast, and take the customization out (outside of abilities).

Downpour

11-13-2011, 02:13 AM

Just like my person pointed some posts ago, just remove the assist lv 1 - HPA and our problem with the "final assist -> HPA" is solved.

Now about the FEXR: Please ban, very awful to try win a battle when your opp get a ex bar and the brv to rape you.

X-Zone

11-13-2011, 03:26 AM

I don't think that's a very apt comparison if I'm honest Veysey... every character in the game is capable of finishing a match with assist combo into HPA, including Bartz and Garland. Escaping an EXR finish situation? That's not something everyone can do.

So let's say you want to actually fight back in this situation. You're gonna need to not only pull off a successful block, but you also need a character who can follow up the block with an HPA like Aerial Circle, SoL, or HL so as to deplete the opponent's gauge without them using a brv hit to activate EXR.

Else, you need a character who can whiff fast and easy to gain the gauge to escape EXR without becoming totally open to counterattack. Fine for say, WoL and Firion, they have dayflash and swordslash. But let's take Kefka, what on earth is he going to do? All his brave attacks risk connecting with the opponent. So should he block and Havoc Wing? The chances of this happening successfully are next to zero assuming whoever has full gauge also has a full brain to match. And while the defending character struggles to find a safe way to gain some gauge without accidentally hitting their pursuer (absurd, a situation in a fighting game where you don't want to hit your opponent), the pursuer can have a blast being offensive as they like cos should they get punished, that's free victory on a plate. What does this mean, thanks to the assist system? They're gaining assist gauge as they attack and the situation is becoming increasingly hopeless.

And even if the character does have the tools to potentially deal with the situation? Let's take the end of TKG's recent match against cooldude, pretty ideal example in fact. Yeah, youtubers loved to bash TKG for running away. "Har har har what a coward, typical shadow flare spammer, runs away when he's in trouble" well damn man, what was he supposed to do? Throw out a naked HL and pray he doesn't get assist punished? Try and block (we all know how easy Squall is to block)? Land on the floor, whiff Transience and hope cooldude doesn't just walk into it? He ran because that was his best option. Doesn't exactly keep the flow of battle going...

And it's not like we're talking about eliminating the EXR mechanic altogether. Bartz or Garland can still cause critical damage with one of their notorious EXRs throughout a fight, so it's not like we're talking about removing a major strength of theirs. Besides, if they're at killing bravery range anyway, the strength of their respective EXRs become somewhat irrelevant. If they're close to killing bravery? They can still utilise the powerful EXR if they wish to give themselves a huge bravery boost. They'll still be in a position where they have the upper hand, only it won't bring the battle to an awkward standstill; or worse, doom one player's chances altogether.

TKG09

11-13-2011, 12:52 PM

I'd just like to point out that if you do have a full EX bar, the proper thing to do would be use it mid combo so they can't assist change out of it, then to Assist->HP. That rewards the player for actually getting a legit hit, and not just spamming mindlessly knowing that he can't be punished and that the opponent will eventually screw up and get hit/hit you.

TKG09

11-16-2011, 11:01 PM

Cooldude sheds the light.

Basically, he found the DDFF version of EXGCs. When you get hit by anything with physical priority, Assist Change and counter into HP as usual. But just as soon as you press [], you go into EX. This can't be assist changed out of. It can't be EXR'd either. There is literally nothing you can do about it.

Seriously. This is fucking OP. Remeber the EXR situation I described earlier, where unless you have assist meter ready you lose both if you get hit and if you hit the opponent? This is the same, except it happens even when you do have the meter. There is no stopping it. Ban now.

kewldude475

11-18-2011, 01:54 PM

Summons: While I detest summons, banning them in a major tournament setting seems...strange, since it ads an interesting twist to some games, and is basically each player's trump card. The flavor (but possibly rage, and people saying "BS!") is the only reason i would EVER support summons in a major tournament (but in things like Ladders, I love the no-summon policy 100%).

Chase: In the las ladder I participated in, I lost a match ater basically being a chase meatbag. I just sat there while my opponent accumulated free bravery and damage, and when I finally didged, I got 5K damage+wallrush done to me, and after even more chase, I lost the match. That discouraged me from participating in more tournaments. I only participated in Linkshell because of the ban on chase. You basically have to guess or risk your opponent geting free damage and EX. It's gamebreaking for me. Having an entire mechanic that can change a battle so much. Sure, you can spout it's 50/50 all you want, but even so, the chase initiator still has the advantage in first guess. I hate this system almost as much as assist charges. (almost)

Rebellious Soul: Most people will just equip it so that they can at least get 2K or 3K bravery for their opponent beating them, and it will be in just about every sensible build if t is allowed. 2K fee bravery for your opponent kicking your ass? Really? As was stated, we already have asist charges as a comeback feature.

SbS: It's really annoying to deal with, but if your opponent has a hybrid buid, it may be dangerous, and it takes away EX, which is still a huge factor. Even though it can provide huge benefits, and I personaly hate the accesory nowadays, I say keep. I don't think it's broken (though I usually detest it's use in Casuals).

Final EXR's: Don't really care. It's especially cool if your opponent has SbS and now you've got killing BRV and full EX. Unfortunately, it brings the game to a halt, and it becomes ridiculous. Especially in a competitive setting where people are trying to win (See: TKG09 vs Nemo)I don't really care for banning it, but I would only endorse it because the other player will probably just run away and spam for assist/their safest move.

Level 2 assist changes: Meh.

Riposting after level 1 and 2 assist changes: Riposting after level 1's isn't THAT bad in my opinion. Kinda prevents saaayyyy Cloud from spamming Omnislash version 5 all he wants, but at the same time, it makes pople say (especially if the Cloud has a bar of assis themself) "Hmm, I wanna be able to assist change in case he tries Omni, so I will camp befor pursuing him." With level 2 assist changes, I think they should DEFINITELY be banned. Take Sephiroth, who is already considered Top Tier. It just makes the gap betwen him and others even wider that he can just camp with Shadow Flare/Oblivion, and it he gets hit, he can counter with HL 99% of the time. Same with Squall. He can camp with Bat Fang or Fire Barret, and just assist change and follow-up with Aerial Circle. It's completely retarded imo, that characters can do that, and I think level 2 assist change counters should be banned absolutely. Level 1 and 2 assist change counters BOTH encourage assist camping too. Especially if your character can do it.

If I have to vote for one thing, I say chase. Though I wouldn't care if empty chases are allowed in case someone makes a mistake. They will probably get hit from Recovery Attack, but at least they don't automatically lose the match.
That's my take on all this.

TKG09

11-18-2011, 03:06 PM

No EXGC 2.0 (http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?11375-Major-tournament-s-ruleset-discussion&p=322178&viewfull=1#post322178) mentioned? Fail

And it's not riposting after level 1/2 assist change, it's countering

And this is fail anyway. Voting should not be in a poll, and "5 votes to get banned" system is horrible.

We should vote like we do in smogon, and thing should only be banned with over 50% of the votes supporting bans. I'm requesting this thread do be redone.

I'll give an example smogon like vote. For the record, you can see what they look like here:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=155

Anyway, my vote:

Summons: Ban
Chase: Abstain
Rebellious Soul: Ban
Side by Side: Do not ban
Omega Stages: Ban
Final EXR: Ban
Level 2 Assist Changes: Do not ban
Level 1 Assist Change Counter: Abstain
Level 2 Assist Change Counter: Ban
EXGC 2.0: Ban

Abstains should not be counted towards the final ban/do not ban percentage. Bans will be handed to thing with over 50% ban votes.

Narolf

11-18-2011, 08:01 PM

In the end, I think my opinion still stands at "leave the game as it is for official"You know, I'm totally on the same page as you, not that all what has been discussed in this thread served no purpose or anything, but I would keep them as experimentations for the ladders.

I would crave for a major allowing everything possible in Official, everything and anything (minus Feral Chaos as he has always been deemed to be a boss character* -see his icon ingame: it has more spikes than the regular characters'- and hacks): counterpicking only on character's selection (blind-pick for the first match), stages' selection always random (Omega stages enabled) and a sweet assist-low tier-challenge like in KAoS 2.0 (don't pair with Kuja, Jecht or Sephy and earn fifteen bucks!) as per Spyder's idea. I would love to see the reactions it unfolds, and even then, I can tell that by no mean will it deserve to be called "Get Salty".

I would also make a second major in parallel the same way, but with Off.(Skill) as the ruleset.

*http://dissidiaforums.com/converse.php?u=1191&u2=4583 -- Ehx & co. tested it with precision abilities iirc and it didn't work either. We can try it if you want, but I'm confident it will be of no avail. Feral Chaos does 10-0 80% of the cast in most stages and that one alone makes him completely out of the line.

***
The line of thinking hints at where most of the community of players are stuck at.

http://dissidiaforums.com/converse.php?u=107&u2=2188

Those were the words of the CB crew, as well.

I've talked to Rei a few times back in July. He planned to shape the scene around three axes.
Let the metagame expand off the Official ruleset--which is also your position, Veysey's, RDF's and mine.
Working on the over-used facet of the game--we have this covered with the customs, wherein you see, for example, accessories never used otherwise, such as Center of the world.
Working on a KAoS ruleset for DDFF--K' Gen's work, Veysey's and Nero's can be used as basis.
My previous post wasn't tackling whether all the pros here who complained about several aspects of the game are bitching for the sake of bitching or not. It was questioning the following: did we host enough full-Official tournaments here before claiming the ruleset screams to be atrophied? We only hosted two tournaments that way for the record: they were August's ladders tournaments, back to when K' Gen was still around. Are they enough to claim full-Official wasn't the way to go? They clearly aren't for you, neither are they for me; but ultimately, the appreciation of the collective remains determinant.

I'm now going to close this thread and review it in its entirety to bring up all the points mentioned in the form of a survey, in order to set the major's ruleset in the stone. Every single rule tackled in this thread will be a choice for the poll--minus the no-assist rule: our -global- scene is definitely not very keen of that one, considering the failure Linkshell Legacy was.

***

Re-opening the thread to discuss the following.

As for chase: I wish I'd had time to bring it up earlier, but I would like to say that I'd be ok with chase if it was limited to a single BRV or HP hit and wall rushes cannot be turned into an assist combo. To make it simple: Squall enters chase, lands his attack. Regardless of whether it wall rushes or the enemy keeps flying, Squall cannot continue attacking until the opponent is in a neutral ground/air stance again. If we're leaving Chase completely intact, I vote for a ban.

I should also mention that as for chase, I'd be ok with it if you were not allowed to attack after chase. Sure, you'd probably get hit by an opponent with recovery attack, but that is better than just losing the match. That way in case you chase by accident, you still ave a chance, or for assist combos.

Khellendros's idea was also good, but doing that is just rather...luke-warm imo. I guess my idea was too though you could say, but it gives people a chance if they chase by accident.

Bloodsword83

11-18-2011, 09:02 PM

I would be okay with chase if we banned assist combos after the chase wallrush. I personally enjoy the fast-paced action chase introduces, but I don't like eating assist combos afterwards.

Downpour

11-18-2011, 09:05 PM

I would be okay with chase if we banned assist combos after the chase wallrush. I personally enjoy the fast-paced action chase introduces, but I don't like eating assist combos afterwards.

But if we remove the Chase -> Assist, people will just spam chase for ex and after it there's no real problem in get hit in chase.

Sooooo; nah

Narolf

11-18-2011, 09:44 PM

I would be okay with chase if we banned assist combos after the chase wallrush. I personally enjoy the fast-paced action chase introduces, but I don't like eating assist combos afterwards.
Added the option to the poll (http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?11738-Major-tournament-s-ruleset).

TKG09

11-18-2011, 09:51 PM

No. Chase should either be all banned or completely allowed.

Narolf

11-19-2011, 09:10 AM

I propose the following for the deadlines. You'll be able to play three rounds within a week at a cool pace.
[Monday; Wednesday]
[Wednesday; Friday]
[Saturday; Sunday]

Read it: [00:00 AM EST; 00:00 PM EST].

TKG09

11-19-2011, 12:16 PM

Assist Combos after chases' wallrush: Ban
Rebellious Soul: Ban
Omega Stages: Ban

I'm assuming everything else is a Do not ban? Or is it abstain?

BTW, once we're done voting, we should have a small testing round with the new ruleset. Put it in a ladder tournament so we can see how it rolls. This is just to make sure we didn't miss anything, and that the new rules are fine and balanced.

Narolf

11-19-2011, 02:23 PM

Just realized there was one rule I forgot to mention in the poll.

If you ban the top 3, then the mid tiers become much more viable. The high tiers still have dominance, but the number of usable characters would likely double.

You can update your votes at any time.

TKG09

11-19-2011, 03:12 PM

This should not be even brought up to the poll.

We would need to test first before bringing such big changes. I suggest that we do not ban the Top 3 for now. Vote for the others then when we're done we test it in a ladder tournament. Then the major. Then we can start fucking around with banning those 3.

Heck, I'm not even sure if they're the top 3. I was starting to think Squall could be better than Ultimecia, although not by much.

EDIT: Oh, and if we do decide to ban those three, I must say this: Sure, but not for now. This is a major change you would have to give people adapt to. As in, do a few ladders with it before putting them in a major. This will give people time to learn other characters.

Narolf

11-19-2011, 03:26 PM

...for how long are we kept on moving at such snail pace? I've brought Hollowed's idea in the poll because banning the top 3 was already alluded as potentially viable seven months ago (http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?9072-Is-there-anything-in-the-works-for-a-more-quot-competitive-quot-ruleset&p=263583&viewfull=1#post263583). Your reasoning here is exactly the same as Axel's there (http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?11337-Tiers-list&p=319462&viewfull=1#post319462).

Forget about the major and its ruleset, I've put a deadline for the poll without even acknowledging whenever Spyder planned to start it--I would wait for Christmas' time at this point. Consider it as a veiled attempt to revitalize discussions here and, ultimately, update the ladders' ruleset with the most popular rules.

Bloodsword83

11-19-2011, 03:49 PM

I disagree with the banning of the top three.

1. None of these characters are gamebreaking. There is no FC protege in the top three.

2. While they do have a lot of good matchups, they aren't unbeatable. If you have half of a semi functional brain, you can give them a lot of trouble. I.E. assist punishing Grand Cross soon enough that it doesn't change you out but late enough Exdeath can't stop Grand Cross. Or AP a whiffed Heaven's Light. You know, simple stuff. Hell, I've had my Exdeath beat by a beastly Onion Knight. I repeat; they aren't unbeatable.

3. Personal reason: Seriously, Exdeath is my main. Has been since 013 and will be in the future. He is the only character I feel comfortable playing competitively with. If he were to be banned, I would hang up my hat as far as the tourney scene goes because all the time in the world isn't going to be enough for me to learn a new character to the competency I have with Exdeath.

kewldude475

11-19-2011, 04:18 PM

1. But Sephiroth should not be throwing out random HL's anyway >.>

2. Just because a player with more skill beat your top tier character doesn't mean they will be unbeatable. Think of Ehx. No one could beat him in D-D (though Dave beat him in the Test-Run by spamming Jump for an hour.) also, the character may be beatable, but that does not mean they aren't banworthy. I mean, think of hos Aveot beat TKG's Feral Chaos with Seph. He was proven beatable, yet we banned him anyway.

3. Maybe I liked Feral Chaos. Since DDFF came out, maybe I was always planning to play as him since I found him to be an awesome character. Since FF1 came out, I always wanted to play as Chaos. He was so cool. Now DDFF is out and we get Feral Chaos. I can come out with personal reasons too, but in the end, it doesn't matter.

Bloodsword83

11-19-2011, 04:25 PM

kewldude475

11-19-2011, 04:31 PM

1. The whiffs do happen. :3

2. You can beat Exdeath with more than one or two characters in the game, unlike Feral Chaos. (BTW, I'm assuming a completely competent Feral Chaos player, here)

3. My personal reasons matter as much as anyone else's. I just want to make my opinions know so it's clear what my motives are.

1. You are implying that the sephiroth will be careless with their HL's (which TKG for instance, is not, and even so, Sephiroth is very good at locking assists)and if he were to throw them out, then he'd probably have two bars first (in which case, you will have to punish, and go into EX mode).

2. Dissidence-D Ehx. No one beat him. (But maybe that was just his skill level that was above most if not, al others.)

3. No, I'm not saying jusy your personal reasons don't matter, just that no pesonal opinions matter THAT much really.

Bloodsword83

11-19-2011, 04:44 PM

1. You are implying that the sephiroth will be careless with their HL's (which TKG for instance, is not, and even so, Sephiroth is very good at locking assists)and if he were to throw them out, then he'd probably have two bars first (in which case, you will have to punish, and go into EX mode).

2. Dissidence-D Ehx. No one beat him. (But maybe that was just his skill level that was above most if not, al others.)

3. No, I'm not saying jusy your personal reasons don't matter, just that no pesonal opinions matter THAT much really.

1. The whiffs do happen. :3

2. Not denying that.

3. I see.

Alrighty then, let's ask this.

If you are in favor of banning the top three (Exdeath, Sephiroth, and Ultimecia), what are the individual reason for each character that make you think that way? Why should Exdeath be banned? Why should Sephiroth be banned? Why should Ultimecia be banned? I just want to get a guage of where everyone is coming from with their opinion. This being the back room, I'm expecting a sweet-ass wall of text from AT LEAST Narolf describing their thoughts on the subject in detail.

kewldude475

11-19-2011, 04:47 PM

1. The whiffs do happen. :3

2. Not denying that.

3. I see.

Alrighty then, let's ask this.

If you are in favor of banning the top three (Exdeath, Sephiroth, and Ultimecia), what are the individual reason for each character that make you think that way? Why should Exdeath be banned? Why should Sephiroth be banned? Why should Ultimecia be banned? I just want to get a guage of where everyone is coming from with their opinion. This being the back room, I'm expecting a sweet-ass wall of text from AT LEAST Narolf describing their thoughts on the subject in detail.

Ohoho, don't get me wrong. I don't particularly care if those 3 are banned. Just that people need actual good reasons to keep them, and they need to assume the person controlling that said character isn't brain dead.

Also, people need actual good reasons why they SHOULDN'T be banned.

And of course, whiffs do happen, but not Heaven's Light whiffs asuming you don't decide to stupidly throw out attacks.

Narolf

11-19-2011, 05:00 PM

I'm expecting a sweet-ass wall of text from AT LEAST Narolf

You shouldn't. I'm just on the same page as Hollowed (http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?11375-Major-tournament-s-ruleset-discussion/page9&p=315227#post315227), really: banning the top 3 would guarantee a better variety in the character usage--a pro-Cloud of Darkness can't do jack against a pro-Exdeath, yet she/it/they can pull a dent to Squall and Cloud. I'm not believing Sephy, Exdeath and Ulty are unbeatable at all; neither will I be mentioning that I, on a personal level, enjoy playing as and against all three.

To tell you the truth, I'm more concerned by the over-used facet of this game -a game with just so much customization and features, yet so little used in tournaments- rather than its balance and all this stuff.

Bloodsword83

11-19-2011, 05:20 PM

I wholeheartedly disagree. If you ban these three, then there will be a new top 3 (or some random number) that people always play to win in tournaments.

For argument's sake, let's say we do ban the three. What characters will take their place? If you want to be bright and cheerful about it, you can say "any character has a chance then!" But that's not true because the high tier characters still have good matchups against a good number of the cast. Maybe I'm just not seeing the logic in it, but that variety you get the first few ladder tourneys will stagnate into a brand new dominating presence that someone will say, "Oh boy, we need to ban this Kuja guy!" or "Squall is so totally broken, and I'm tired of seeing him." I predict that this is where it will go.

Narolf

11-19-2011, 05:56 PM

Alright then, despite I'm not agreeing with you as for that new top 3 (Kuja, Lightning and Squall/Yuna/Warrior of Light/Firion--still uncertain about who is sixth) centralizing the character's pick around them as much as the current top 3 does, I'm retracting the argument from the poll, as it has been opted for out of spite more than anything.

I vote back to full-Official, I really want to see two majors in parallel: one for Official, one for Off.(Skill); both without the nightmare Feral Chaos is.

RDFMASTER

11-19-2011, 05:57 PM

What kind of none sense BS is going on here. This major tournament SHOULDN'T BE SO DIFFERENT FROM DISSDIDENCE-D. The purpose of this tournament discussion is to only talk about Summon, Rebellion Soul and Omegas stages. Any other talk that relate to the game mechanic can be discussed later on after this major tournament. WE NEED A tournament as closer as DissidenceD but without DChaos.

Banning the top 3 is out of the question. Don't fucking give me reasons it will bring variety because people will then use the following top best characters (the A tier).

IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO PLAY IN THE MAJOR TOURNAMENT, YOUR VOTE WILL NOT COUNT. Stop making your on custom Official ruleset. The point of this thread is to try to get a tournament without so many bans and see what can later be discuss to ban.

Narolf

11-19-2011, 05:59 PM

Big deal. Take it easy. http://www.gamerama.fr/forum/img/smilies/smiley85.gif

Kurayami

11-19-2011, 06:01 PM

Banning the top 3 is out of the question. Don't fucking give me reasons it will bring variety because people will then use the following top best characters (the A tier).

At least Terra lower-tiered characters actually stand a chance against characters in A-tier. It just makes things a little more balanced.

TKG09

11-19-2011, 06:17 PM

Sephiroth: Sephiroth is completely beatable. Anyone with a fast dash and a fast attack has a decent chance against him, really.

Exdeath: Although I did suggest banning Exdeath once, It's not possible to ban him without people bitching at Sephiroth/Ulti not being banned. Even then, I don't think my reasoning was that good to begin with; I was just salty that he was Sephiroth's worst matchup. But, as Bloodsword has already said, Exdeath is completely beatable.

Ultimecia: Seriously? Ultimecia should not even be here. She has a couple of bad matchups, and is completely beatable with proper effort; Also, I am yet to see a single Ultimecia player do well in the long run. You could bring up Ultima in the last tournament, but really it was just one tournament, and he didn't even go Ulti all the way. He had to go to WoL against me, because he basically knew he did not have a chance to win with her. When a character has a 1-9 matchup against the most overused character in the game, that character is not that good. Heck, I am even starting to think Squall might be the third best character.

I guess the main difference between those three and the others is that they require you to put more effort into the matchup than most characters, and that you can't beat them by just going auto pilot, but rather, you need to use your brain.

I am against all three bans.

EDIT: Plus, everything RDF said.

kewldude475

11-19-2011, 06:22 PM

Narolf

11-19-2011, 06:30 PM

For the record, all what I did was bringing to the table Hollowed's proposition, as I missed it out on yesterday when I back-tracked the whole thread for the poll. Was it too big of a rule just like the no-assist rule? Perhaps, but unlike the latter, which has been tested in the global scene and failed (re: Linkshell Legacy), Hollowed's was yet to be tested.

So no more of that over-dramatizating talk, please: no more random caps, gross language ("fucking"), threats ("your vote will not count") or any of this.

TKG09

11-19-2011, 06:37 PM

The only reason Linkshell Legacy failed was because you banned me, then you had to go away before the tourney was done.

Anyway, I must repeat myself here: You wanna ban the Top 3? Fine. You will have it. But NOT NOW. I repeat. NOT NOW. This is a huge change that would require a lot of testing and adaption time for the scene. This next tournament should be as little different from Official as possible. That's why banning minor mechanics such as summons is fine. But banning characters or huge mechanics is NOT fine.

Narolf

11-19-2011, 06:49 PM

The only reason Linkshell Legacy failed was because you banned me, then you had to go away before the tourney was done.Oh please, you may pile it on my shoulders, there still were... what? Six persons playing and we would've been seven otherwise? I would've still canceled it if I didn't have to go away from home for that week-end, as I don't call six people hanging around a thread a tournament.

Point being, not enough people in the global scene are interested in the no-assist environment. You were the only one requesting it for the record.

Anyway, I must repeat myself here: /
And why are you? Like if I didn't get your point before?

Chill, this is really creepy how a simple proposition led to another shit-storm. http://www.gamerama.fr/forum/img/smilies/smiley6.gif

Bloodsword83

11-19-2011, 07:03 PM

Exdeath is beatable by...who?

Using Exh's Exdeath as an example.

EDIT: Oh yeah, Spyder beat Bloodsword, but I don't know if his tactic will keep on working, and not everyone plays Squall, or a character who can counter Maelstrom.
Don't forget that RDF beat Ehx's Exdeath in Dissidence-D(?) with WoL. But then they had a redo and the redo was still close, though RDF lost.

kewldude475

11-19-2011, 07:05 PM

Don't forget that RDF beat Ehx's Exdeath in Dissidence-D(?) with WoL. But then they had a redo and the redo was still close, though RDF lost.

I wonder how that would go now.

Also, I'm pretty sure someone said something about him beating Ehx with Radiant Sword spam. Omni Block that, assist punish that. (If he has less than 2 bars)

Kurayami

11-19-2011, 07:17 PM

I wonder how that would go now.

Also, I'm pretty sure someone said something about him beating Ehx with Radiant Sword spam. Omni Block that, assist punish that. (If he has less than 2 bars)

It would be rare for an Exdeath to have less than 2 bars, seeing how easily he builds assist and how little he needs to rely on it.

As TKG mentioned, banning the top 3 would have to be a gradual process. I would suggest just banning certain moves, but I don't know enough about the top 3 to know whether banning moves would change things for the better or for the worse.

kewldude475

11-19-2011, 07:39 PM

I was talking about Warrior of Light.

Narolf

11-19-2011, 07:56 PM

It would be rare for an Exdeath to have less than 2 bars, seeing how easily he builds assist and how little he needs to rely on it.

As TKG mentioned, banning the top 3 would have to be a gradual process. I would suggest just banning certain moves, but I don't know enough about the top 3 to know whether banning moves would change things for the better or for the worse.Would you have banned certain moves for Feral Chaos as well?

Kurayami

11-19-2011, 07:59 PM

Would you have banned certain moves for Feral Chaos as well?

Perhaps. But then again, I didn't really know what he was capable of outside Via Dolorosa and Brute Force spam.

RDFMASTER

11-19-2011, 08:05 PM

Don't forget that RDF beat Ehx's Exdeath in Dissidence-D(?) with WoL. But then they had a redo and the redo was still close, though RDF lost.

He is beatable is just is very hard to do. Those matches were close XD. Still if you guys continue to discuss banning the top 3, I will start deleting post.

Kurayami

11-19-2011, 08:07 PM

Still if you guys continue to discuss banning the top 3, I will start deleting post.

Oh, so discussing something that RDF disagrees with is against the law of the forums? Never knew.

RDFMASTER

11-19-2011, 08:12 PM

Oh, so discussing something that RDF disagrees with is against the law of the forums? Never knew.

What is the main goal of this major tournament discussion? DO I NEED TO REMIND YOU WHAT IT IS?

Kurayami

11-19-2011, 08:14 PM

What is the main goal of this major tournament discussion? DO I NEED TO REMIND YOU WHAT IT IS?

Please do. Also, i'm starting to wonder why you seem to capitalise random sentences in every one of your posts.

Bloodsword83

11-19-2011, 08:16 PM

There really isn't too much more to say as far as this thread's scope is concerned. Just have to wait for voting to close.

Narolf

11-19-2011, 08:18 PM

He is beatable is just is very hard to do. Those matches were close XD. Still if you guys continue to discuss banning the top 3, I will start deleting post.
...what would this thread be for then, now that all the points covered in the poll have already been discussed in and out?

The top 3 will not be banned in the major, you can rest on your laurels.

Perhaps. But then again, I didn't really know what he was capable of outside Via Dolorosa and Brute Force spam.

The CB-crew tested it without those two moves iirc, and he was still deemed to be OP. Mike also said he wasn't keen on hindering characters that way, probably for the same reasons TKG wants chases to be either fully banned or allowed; same as for Veysey regarding summons.

I don't get the reasoning behind not being able to "half-ban" stuff to tell you the truth.

Kurayami

11-19-2011, 08:23 PM

I don't get the reasoning behind not being able to "half-ban" stuff to tell you the truth.

Yeah, neither do I. But I suppose that if we started putting specific limitations on everything, things would just get too confusing and complex (and the game is complex enough as it is). Still though, I don't see what's wrong with giving 'half-banning' a shot.

LonelyGaruga

11-19-2011, 08:24 PM

Still if you guys continue to discuss banning the top 3, I will start deleting post.

The hell is the point of deleting posts in a discussion for how to balance the game more? As it stands, Exdeath has numerous matchups that are almost impossible to lose, as has been pointed out by TKG already, and trying to figure out how to keep the tournament scene healthy is vital. There is absolutely no reason to deliberately censor posts that only serve this purpose. This is basically the definition of power abuse =/

Now as for the actual topic, I think Exdeath should be banned purely because of how impossible it is to beat him due to level 2 assist changes, or a ruleset that limits level 2 assist changes be implemented (such as taking assists out in the first place, or just limiting assist usage, as examples). There is no denying that Exdeath is bordering on impossible to defeat for most of the cast, especially the lower tier characters.

Bloodsword83

11-19-2011, 08:26 PM

There's a design principle called KISS. It stands for Keep It Simple Stupid. Things should be kept as simple as possible in most cases.

Bloodsword83

11-19-2011, 08:29 PM

The hell is the point of deleting posts in a discussion for how to balance the game more? As it stands, Exdeath has numerous matchups that are almost impossible to lose, as has been pointed out by TKG already, and trying to figure out how to keep the tournament scene healthy is vital. There is absolutely no reason to deliberately censor posts that only serve this purpose. This is basically the definition of power abuse =/

Now as for the actual topic, I think Exdeath should be banned purely because of how impossible it is to beat him due to level 2 assist changes, or a ruleset that limits level 2 assist changes be implemented (such as taking assists out in the first place, or just limiting assist usage, as examples). There is no denying that Exdeath is bordering on impossible to defeat for most of the cast, especially the lower tier characters.

This isn't the thread for that particular discussion. Make a new thread for it.

TKG09

11-19-2011, 08:31 PM

Uh, the reason I said chases should be either all banned or all allowed is not that; It's because it would lead to an overcomplicated ruleset, which h=draws new players away from the forums; something we desperately need.

I guess you could say that half bans are also overcomplicated, to an extent. But I just really don't like half bans; I just think it should be all banned or not banned at all. Depending on the kind of half ban being applied, we also end up with these kinds of problems:

"Also in a fighting game, a move might be “unfairly” unblockable, but only when that move is executed in a certain situation with precise 1/60th of a second timing. Did the player execute it during that “unfair” time window? Or 1/60th of a second late? Perhaps he accidentally executed the move at the unfair time through sheer luck. Is he to be penalized? Imagine trying to enforce a rule that states “You may usually use move X, but there’s 1/60th of a second where you may not use move X.” "

"The thing to be banned must be able to be “completely defined.” Imagine that in a fighting game, repeating a certain sequence of five moves over and over is the best tactic in the game. Further suppose that doing so is “taboo” and that players want to ban it. There is no concrete definition of exactly what must be banned. Can players do three repetitions of the five moves? What about two reps? What about one? What about repeating the first four moves and omitting the fifth? Is that okay? The game becomes a test of who is willing to play as closely as possible to the “taboo tactic” without breaking the (arbitrary) letter of the law defining the tactic.

Or in a first-person shooter game, consider the notion of banning “camping” (sitting in one place for too long). The ban is enforceable, but the problem is being able to completely define camping. If camping is defined as staying within one zone for 3 minutes, and if it really is the best tactic, then sitting in that zone for 2 minutes 59 seconds becomes the best tactic. It’s a slippery slope because there will always exist camping tactics arbitrarily close to the specific kind of camping that is banned. "

See the full article here (http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html)

Kurayami

11-19-2011, 08:35 PM

Uh, the reason I said chases should be either all banned or all allowed is not that; It's because it would lead to an overcomplicated ruleset, which h=draws new players away from the forums; something we desperately need.

A severely unbalanced game also draws new players away from the forums, so half-bans are more of a two sided coin.

LonelyGaruga

11-19-2011, 08:38 PM

This isn't the thread for that particular discussion. Make a new thread for it.

...what would this thread be for then, now that all the points covered in the poll have already been discussed in and out?

Narolf has encouraged discussion for this, so no, this is the appropriate thread for discussing that.

Narolf

11-19-2011, 08:40 PM

and the game is complex enough as it isThat is precisely where there is contingent as for my part: while I understand why people won't "half-ban" things in other fighters because said fighters are deemed to be too complex, I can't tell why it would also apply to Dissidia, which is the simplest fighter out of all. Brawl comes next, and even then, they used to "half-ban" Meta-Knight: they banned his cape's move before banning the character itself.

I mean, so long you remain aware Sephy is badly nerfed without Shadow Flare and turns mid-tiers as such, what is there to frown upon?

Bloodsword83

11-19-2011, 08:46 PM

Narolf has encouraged discussion for this, so no, this is the appropriate thread for discussing that.

I was under the impression that once the voting was over and changes were officially made to the ladders and such, this thread would be closed and archived for the public to see and discuss.

Narolf

11-19-2011, 08:51 PM

I was under the impression that once the voting was over and changes were officially made to the ladders and such, this thread would be closed and archived for the public to see and discuss.
I'll split the thread into another one if the on-going discussion about half-banning stuff and all continues for pages so no worries.

RDFMASTER

11-19-2011, 08:59 PM

There's a design principle called KISS. It stands for Keep It Simple Stupid. Things should be kept as simple as possible in most cases.

Here is where my point is going to. KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID. We aren't making any major changes for the time being. Sure you guys can discuss about things to ban but this isn't really the time for it.

LonelyGaruga

11-19-2011, 08:59 PM

Brawl comes next, and even then, they used to "half-ban" Meta-Knight: they banned his cape's move before banning the character itself.

...when did that happen? I'll admit, I've never kept much track on SSBB's competitive community, but even then the only "move" I'm aware of that has ever been banned was a glitch involving this move, which allowed Meta Knight to turn intangible for an indefinite period of time (read: the entire match). The move itself is completely fine, it's doing the glitch that isn't OK, as it basically boils down to Meta Knight getting a hit in, then causing a time out.

I don't really think Shadow Flare is enough to warrant a ban. BRV boost on dodge builds can deal with it. Same with Ultimecia (who is hardly broken). Exdeath, on the other hand...Reverse Polarity by itself makes Exdeath borderline untouchable, and combined with Maelstrom, it's essentially impossible to beat him in some stages with some characters (mostly the ones with slower dash speed). A good Exdeath player is impossible to punish. The only method I've been able to think of that's a "reliable" counter that doesn't involve outplaying Exdeath (which is stupid because a sufficiently skilled player would be impossible to defeat) would be BRV boost on Quickmove on characters that can counter Maelstrom. Other methods involve EX Core camping (both for EX and Force to Courage builds), and...honestly, that's about it. I really don't see how Exdeath is less broken than Feral Chaos, honestly -.-

TKG09

11-19-2011, 09:03 PM

I mean, so long you remain aware Sephy is badly nerfed without Shadow Flare and turns mid-tiers as such, what is there to frown upon?

Sephy isn't mid tier without Shadow Flare. He's low at best.

Basically, he becomes unviable without it; You will not see any Sephiroth if you ban SF, so you might as well ban him entirely; at least that makes things more simple.

---------- Post added at 08:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:01 PM ----------

Exdeath, on the other hand...Reverse Polarity by itself makes Exdeath borderline untouchable, and combined with Maelstrom, it's essentially impossible to beat him in some stages with some characters (mostly the ones with slower dash speed). A good Exdeath player is impossible to punish. The only method I've been able to think of that's a "reliable" counter that doesn't involve outplaying Exdeath (which is stupid because a sufficiently skilled player would be impossible to defeat) would be BRV boost on Quickmove on characters that can counter Maelstrom. Other methods involve EX Core camping (both for EX and Force to Courage builds), and...honestly, that's about it. I really don't see how Exdeath is less broken than Feral Chaos, honestly -.-

EX is a huge threat to Exdeath, and that alone makes him not unbeatable. Yes, it's still hard to do, it's doable.

Seraph Sephiroth

11-19-2011, 09:08 PM

If you take away a characters bread and butter moves so that character isn't being used to his/her full potential in a competitive scene, what's the point? People would just move right on down the ladder to the next best thing. there are always going to be better characters and worse characters in every fighter.

Narolf

11-19-2011, 09:23 PM

...when did that happen? I'll admit, I've never kept much track on SSBB's competitive community, but even then the only "move" I'm aware of that has ever been banned was a glitch involving this move, which allowed Meta Knight to turn intangible for an indefinite period of time (read: the entire match). The move itself is completely fine, it's doing the glitch that isn't OK, as it basically boils down to Meta Knight getting a hit in, then causing a time out.

Well, I don't follow it much either to tell you the truth. It's that I thought reading something along those lines a long time ago. Don't quote me on it at any rate, that wouldn't constitute a valid example since I can't recall where I read it.

If you take away a characters bread and butter moves so that character isn't being used to his/her full potential in a competitive scene, what's the point? People would just move right on down the ladder to the next best thing. there are always going to be better characters and worse characters in every fighter.

The question was: how bad are Sephy, Ulty and Exdeath without their bread & butter moves? Do they all turn low-tiers or are they just slightly nerfed?

The thing is, not everyone in this backroom believe the gap between the top 3 and the rest of the cast is as wide as the gap between the 4th, 5th and 6th (which are, in my opinion, Kuja, Lightning and WoL) and the rest of the cast. Tifa, who I personally consider as the most technical character of the game regardless of her actual potential, can barely do anything against Exdeath, Sephy and Ultimecia, while she can pull a dent to Light and WoL at the very least.

TKG09

11-19-2011, 09:33 PM

The question was: how bad are Sephy, Ulty and Exdeath without their bread & butter moves? Do they all turn low-tiers or are they just slightly nerfed?

They become terrible, and unusable. Except for maybe Ultimecia, but she wasn't THAT broken to begin with

The thing is, not everyone in this backroom believe the gap between the top 3 and the rest of the cast is as wide as the gap between the 4th, 5th and 6th (which are, in my opinion, Kuja, Lightning and WoL) and the rest of the cast.

Uh, 4th 5th and 6th are Ultimecia, Firion and one of those three; Probably WoL. Yes, Ultimecia; Squall is 3rd in my opinion

Tifa, who I personally consider as the most technical character of the game regardless of her actual potential, can barely do anything against Exdeath, Sephy and Ultimecia, while she can pull a dent to Light and WoL at the very least.

As a former Lightning mainer, I can tell you that she really doesn't have that much trouble with Tifa either. The same could be said about WoL, who I use to an extent (even though I'm not that good with him). Yes, she does do better against them than against the other 3; but she still does not do well

Replies in bold.

In addition, no one has brought up a good reason why the ban on those would be even warranted. (I'm not counting diversity)

EDIT: Oh, maybe you could say Garuga's argument on Exdeath, but that is specific to him, and does not apply to the other 2

LonelyGaruga

11-19-2011, 09:36 PM

People would just move right on down the ladder to the next best thing. there are always going to be better characters and worse characters in every fighter.

Completely missing the point here. The goal is not to make everyone on the same level, only to increase the number of viable characters -.-

TKG09

11-19-2011, 09:39 PM

Variety you say?

Sephiroth is completely beatable. Anyone with a fast dash and a fast attack has a decent chance against him, really.

kewldude475

11-19-2011, 09:54 PM

People keep saying "They'll just move on to the next best thing" but ay leat then, they would have the broken character(s)/moves out of the way. If you're one of those people who would want things banned for variety, then it doesn't apply to you. Those who want balance, will want bans to even things out, even if it means people will just move to the next best thing. Like seriously, I hioe people alreay understood this, it's not hard to get >.>

Bloodsword83

11-19-2011, 10:01 PM

Would we just be removing RP on Exdeath? That alone won't bring Exdeath down very far. He will still be high tier. I can play around no RP.

Garuga, let me tell you how to beat Exdeath. Kuja. Remote Flare. Two Assist gauges. You are untouchable. Mix it up with Flare Star and the close range brv attacks until you win. Congratulations.

Seraph Sephiroth

11-19-2011, 10:02 PM

Dissidia is not balanced and players can't balance it out. Some characters are blatantly better than others. Its just how it is in this game.

Narolf

11-19-2011, 10:11 PM

Dissidia is not balanced and players can't balance it out.You're bringing this argument all time, for everything and anything (first time was about K' Gen's ruleset), but that isn't Garuga's line of thought, neither is it Kurayami's, Kewldude's and mine: we are all well-aware Dissidia "can't be balanced" and Garuga, in particular, repeated it at several times over months. The intention is to work on the over-used aspect of the scene, again, in the expectation to see the likes of Tifa, Laguna, Shantotto, Cecil and Onion Knight more often by banning their worst nightmares.

Think it qualitatively instead of quantitatively.

Seraph Sephiroth

11-19-2011, 10:38 PM

LonelyGaruga

11-19-2011, 11:16 PM

Garuga, let me tell you how to beat Exdeath. Kuja. Remote Flare. Two Assist gauges. You are untouchable. Mix it up with Flare Star and the close range brv attacks until you win. Congratulations.

This is like saying Feral shouldn't be banned because Exdeath can handle Via Dolorosa spam with Omni Block. A single horrible matchup hardly makes up for the numerous nigh impossible to lose matchups Exdeath already has. Last I checked, not every character has an easily spammed unblockable move that is nearly impossible for Exdeath to counter, let alone the rest of the cast. I'm already perfectly aware of spamming Remote Flare to beat Exdeath, of course (I do perfectly fine with Gilgamesh anyway)

I'm just saying its a slippery slope, the next best 3 will find overuse in the competitive scene and the bottom characters still won't get used. Banning the top three won't fix the variety issue. And it will exclude the people who play them as well.

Am I advocating banning the top three? No. I'm suggesting banning Exdeath because he has borderline 9-1 matchups with the majority of the cast (I'd say half or more). Sephiroth and Ultimecia require specialized strategies which can make them perfectly beatable (BRV boost on dodge, primarily). Is it easy? Hell no. It will always take much more skill to win with Bartz than it will with Ultimecia. But at least it's plausible, unlike with Exdeath.

Kurayami

11-19-2011, 11:54 PM

I'm just saying its a slippery slope, the next best 3 will find overuse in the competitive scene and the bottom characters still won't get used. Banning the top three won't fix the variety issue. And it will exclude the people who play them as well.

I think you're missing the point.

Yes, there will be a new top 3, but lower tiers like Terra have a far greater chance against the likes of WoL and Lightning then they do against Exdeath and Sephiroth. While they're good characters, they're not impossible to beat.

Seraph Sephiroth

11-20-2011, 12:37 AM

Terra, OK, and shanny. have all shitty matchups besides a few even matchups (which are against low tier chars to begin with). They aren't going to get used by anyone trying to be competitive on a serious level. And if they do use them they know they're at a disadvantage when they use them. Unless you want to make it so only mid tier characters can be used in tournaments there will always be a huge gap.

LonelyGaruga

11-20-2011, 01:06 AM

I don't even know why this discussion is going on. You clearly don't understand both the reality of any fighting game's metagame as well as the goal of this discussion -.-

The point is to make those characters more viable. Exdeath alone makes like half the cast, if not more, completely unviable. Sephiroth and Ultimecia have very good matchups overall, but solid characters still pose a threat to them. Likewise, lower tiers, when used by competent players, are actually capable of posing threats to solid characters. A good Onion Knight or Bartz stands a chance of winning against Squall, Cloud, Lightning, etc. The lower tier characters can certainly pose a threat to higher tiers, but top tiers are a different story.

Just an example: BBCS2 is regarded as being very balanced. EVO 2011 was won by a person that mained a low tier character, beating numerous top tier mainers as well as the best players in the world. In BBCS2, the difference between tiers is negligible. Even the worst character has positive matchups against a few characters.

DDFF's lower tiers are similar to this. Terra (probably) has a positive matchup against Cloud of Darkness, who I feel can go even with Squall/Cloud (personally, I think CoD vs Cloud is actually in her advantage, but I might be missing something). Both X-Zone and I have agreed that OK vs Gilgamesh is 5-5, yet Gilgamesh, imo, is the best character to fight Exdeath with (aside from Kuja) and I feel goes 5-5 with Ultimecia. With lower tier characters, it doesn't become "higher tier = better at every matchup", it means better overall. The advantages are much less pronounced. The reality of it is, even if someone tried tier whoring after Exdeath/Sephiroth/Ultimecia were banned, they actually have to work to be good to get decent results with whatever becomes the new top (and even then, I feel Ultimecia isn't really top tier).

RDFMASTER

11-20-2011, 01:15 AM

I have to agree with seraph sephiroth here. There will be always a huge gap between tiers. It is not our fault some characters are so shity for competitive level. Sure people will like to play them but what's the point of taking the top 3 when the new ones will be still be far overused than the rest. Do you think is Bloodsowrd fault for SE making Exdeath so hard to deal with? NO. He isn't responsible for that. It is his main since DFF and he doesn't play that many characters at competitive level. Don't come here telling me he should use another character because you just missing the point. HE MAINS EXDEATH BECAUSE HE LOVES TO PLAY HIM. This principle applies to any person who love to use a specific character.

Kuyarami: Blame SE for making your favorite character so bad and instead of complaining, whine and wants to ban stuff/characters, try to find something that might help your terra do better. If there isn't strategic to do better then admit your character can't be use that much at competitive level and move on.

Note: THIS IS DISSIDIA, DEAL WITH WHAT YOU HAVE.

kewldude475

11-20-2011, 01:23 AM

It may not be his fault, but sentimental value in characters really doesn't matter that much, I would think. As I stated before, maybe I was infatuated with Chaos since FF1, and was disappointed when he wasn't playable in DFF, and when Feral Chaos was playable in DDFF, he was instantly my main. Then he was taken away from me. We should unban him.

Not that I want Exdeath banned anyway, my only point is...keeping a character because one player has sentimental value with him seems absurd, for a reason not to ban him.

LonelyGaruga

11-20-2011, 01:36 AM

I have to agree with seraph sephiroth here. There will be always a huge gap between tiers.

Of course there will always be a gap. The size of the gap, however, has been greatly exaggerated, primarily due to ignorance. Do you even use anyone low tier at a high level? Look what happened back in K'Gen's custom ruleset tournament when we played. Cloud of Darkness is a low tier character, yet can hold her own quite well against the majority of the cast, including the overused Squall/Cloud/Lightning. Of course, she's probably not actually low tier, everyone might just be failing to understand her potential

It is not our fault some characters are so shity for competitive level. Sure people will like to play them but what's the point of taking the top 3 when the new ones will be still be far overused than the rest. Do you think is Bloodsowrd fault for SE making Exdeath so hard to deal with? NO. He isn't responsible for that. It is his main since DFF and he doesn't play that many characters at competitive level. Don't come here telling me he should use another character because you just missing the point. HE MAINS EXDEATH BECAUSE HE LOVES TO PLAY HIM. This principle applies to any person who love to use a specific character.

We need to unban Feral. Same argument applies to him, after all.

Kuyarami: Blame SE for making your favorite character so bad and instead of complaining, whine and wants to ban stuff/characters, try to find something that might help your terra do better. If there isn't strategic to do better then admit your character can't be use that much at competitive level and move on.

You do understand that was only an example, right? The hell do you think Kura's been doing with Terra? -.-

Bloodsword83

11-20-2011, 01:40 AM

This is like saying Feral shouldn't be banned because Exdeath can handle Via Dolorosa spam with Omni Block. A single horrible matchup hardly makes up for the numerous nigh impossible to lose matchups Exdeath already has. Last I checked, not every character has an easily spammed unblockable move that is nearly impossible for Exdeath to counter, let alone the rest of the cast. I'm already perfectly aware of spamming Remote Flare to beat Exdeath, of course (I do perfectly fine with Gilgamesh anyway)
[/COLOR]

You should not compare Exdeath to Feral Chaos. Feral Chaos is in a league of his own. Exdeath requires much more timing, spacing, and patience than Feral Chaos does.

Seraph Sephiroth

11-20-2011, 01:49 AM

I think what rdf is saying is you'd be alienating players who have been using their characters since dff and have put thousands of hours into them. Its not our fault our characters got bumped up a tier or two this game.

LonelyGaruga

11-20-2011, 02:03 AM

You should not compare Exdeath to Feral Chaos. Feral Chaos is in a league of his own. Exdeath requires much more timing, spacing, and patience than Feral Chaos does.

He still has a bunch of matchups that are nearly impossible to lose. So what if he's more difficult to use?

I think what rdf is saying is you'd be alienating players who have been using their characters since dff and have put thousands of hours into them. Its not our fault our characters got bumped up a tier or two this game.

Which is no different from the people that played Akuma in SFII or other instances where a character was decided to be necessary to ban.

RDFMASTER

11-20-2011, 02:15 AM

He still has a bunch of matchups that are nearly impossible to lose. So what if he's more difficult to use?

Which is no different from the people that played Akuma in SFII or other instances where a character was decided to be necessary to ban.

How long do they took to ban such character?

Bloodsword83

11-20-2011, 04:30 AM

He still has a bunch of matchups that are nearly impossible to lose. So what if he's more difficult to use?

/

These are the precise matchups I sent to Spyder when he asked. I rated them on this scale:
Exdeath vs. ?????
5-5 is even.
6-4 will need to work a bit.
7-3 will need to work hard.
8-2 will need to pull a rabbit out of his/her ass.
9-1 needs to make the Statue of Liberty disappear.
10-0 will need to bring Billy Mays back to life.

If you go backward the reverse is true for Exdeath.

Now, granted that Exdeath doesn't have many matchups that aren't in his favor, there are very few from my experiences that are lopsided. Those are Terra, Laguna, Shantotto, and Vaan. Everyone else, while they'll need to work hard, CAN beat Exdeath. It just so happens that those 4 characters will need to pull Bugs Bunny from their asses to obtain victory.

Now, let's analyze WHY those four characters have such a hard time with Exdeath. We'll do alphabetical order.

Laguna: His attacks are linear. As long as you camp above him, his rifle attack won't be a problem (he can't fire the mid priority projectile straight up). Satellite Cannon can be tricky to Omni Block in lag, but it shouldn't be too hard with a little practice. As far as his aerial options go, Bazooka and Electroshield (pretty sure) is a free Omni Block (those lingering things always are). Something you need to look out for is his shotgun. If he gets you with charged shotgun, it'll break Turn Guard. So be on the look out for that. you'll also need to be on the lookout for his melee. But that's easy to safety dance around. His aerial HPs are simple to Omni Block. The timing is real easy.

Shantotto: Shantotto is an interesting character to fight in the air. The big thing you need to worry about here is switchups between Stun and Retribution. Stun can be tricky to block and counter, but intelligent use of C-Vacuum Wave should be helpful to peg her after a blocked Stun -> dodge. Her HPs aren't really an issue as they can all be Omni Blocked easily. She'll be unable to successfully punish your dodges. With either brv or HP attacks.

Terra: This is generally an easy win because her attacks are VERY predicatable outside of Blizzard Combo. Turn Guard can block Thundara and Holy Combo. Her HPs are easy to block with the noted exceptions of Flood (unblockable, duh) and close-range Meltdown.

Vaan: Vaan's whole gimmick is that when he switches melee weapons, those first attacks are generally high priority. These attacks will break Turn Guard. But Exdeath also has Protect Guard, which can block all of those minus Axe and Shield. This opens up a situation where a Vann may very well have NO MELEE ATTACK that Exdeath can't easily block out of a dodge. His ranged options aren't very good either. Crossbow has noticable animation, giving you time to dodge to the side and ready Omni Block (you'll need to Omni Block it because Protect Guard won't stop ranged attacks like crossbow). If they don't switch into it, it's difficult to see coming, but it isn't particularly dangerous unless the Vaan likes to chase. The same is true of rifle. The only time you can't see it coming is when it isn't being switched into. The main HPs you'll need to worry about are Inferno and Windburst. Inferno has the same timing as Cloud's Braver, so try not to have your dodge punished by it (can't Omni out of a dodge while in an enemy's attack). If you Omni Block Windburst, Vaan may come close to Inferno the Windburst to reflect it back. This is your chance for awesome HP damage. Omni Block Inferno, Windburst will be reflected back, hit Vaan, then you can follow up with a C-Grand Cross for the break. All in all, not looking good for Vaan at all.

----------------------------------------
From my perspective, these matchups aren't skewed by Reverse Polarity or by Maelstrom. These matchups are based on how well the Exdeath can predict and time his blocks and dodges. If four matchups are equal to "a bunch ," then I had better go buy myself four grapes.

LonelyGaruga

11-20-2011, 05:40 AM

From my perspective, these matchups aren't skewed by Reverse Polarity or by Maelstrom.
So this matchup list basically ignores exactly what I consider to be Exdeath's greatest advantage. Great -.- (even then, I find the majority of those questionable, especially OK. 5-5? Really?)

My whole argument is assuming that Exdeath is (which, as far as I can tell, is perfectly viable) laming out the entire match and just spamming RP everywhere. Especially on larger stages like Empyreal Paradox, The Rift, Sky Fortress Bahamut, etc. Once an EX Core shows up, just Maelstrom. Opponent tries to attack, either RP away or dodge/block it. If they don't, whether because they aren't in range or couldn't reach you, you get free HP damage. If they successfully assist punish you in the time frame available during Maelstrom, just assist change to lock it, repeat. If you never land a Maelstrom, I'm assuming Backbreaking Straw or any build with BRV Boost on Dodge + Block is involved, so no matter what the opponent does, you benefit (unless you screw up). Eventually you'll land an HP off a counter. If the opponent manages to get a full EX gauge, it'll never benefit them unless you get hit, so it doesn't matter. Can't EXR off of a stagger either, so no worries there anyway.

Really, assuming neither player makes a mistake (and I don't see why the Exdeath player would, considering this shouldn't be very hard to do), I don't see how anyone that can't counter Maelstrom or punish Turn Guard (Gilgamesh and Zidane can do this, maybe Jecht, Yuna, and Prishe as well) can win. Now, make no mistake, personally speaking I'd rather not ban characters, but I don't see how anyone that can't get around Maelstrom even stands a chance, and even then many of the characters that can get around Maelstrom are going to have a very hard time actually landing a hit, like Onion Knight, Kain, Golbez, and Terra. Of course, if BRV Boost on Quickmove is as viable as I hope it is against Exdeath, then anyone that can get around Maelstrom is pretty viable against him.

Narolf

11-20-2011, 08:36 AM

which h=draws new players away from the forums; something we desperately need.
Expecting the scene to get bigger is delusive. Dissidia may be the competitive fighter of your life, it remains, for the vast majority of people, nothing but a fan-service Psp game without much technical depth thus without a long life-span. Kayarine, Chaos, Khell, Garuga... basically all the staff of #DDFFCasual -minus Kurayami- quit the game already because they are no longer interested in it--doesn't prevent them to still be active on the forum and IRC.

We aren't going to make the scene "bigger", rather we are going to cater to the remaining bit, and to all profiles of said remaining bit. Some people find tournaments more interesting without the top 3/Exdeath? Consider it. Do not shot it down with fallacy arguments such as "you are just lacking of experience", "we need more testing in a tournament-setting", "the meta is still too young" while the game has been released more than eight months ago--let alone the gross talk. Last thing I want to see in this backroom is one voice shouting louder than the others, and people feeling segregated as such.

I think I've said it before but if there are, like, twenty entrants in (the/both) major(s), that would already be considered as a great success.

Bloodsword83

11-20-2011, 10:34 PM

So this matchup list basically ignores exactly what I consider to be Exdeath's greatest advantage. Great -.- (even then, I find the majority of those questionable, especially OK. 5-5? Really?)

My whole argument is assuming that Exdeath is (which, as far as I can tell, is perfectly viable) laming out the entire match and just spamming RP everywhere. Especially on larger stages like Empyreal Paradox, The Rift, Sky Fortress Bahamut, etc. Once an EX Core shows up, just Maelstrom. Opponent tries to attack, either RP away or dodge/block it. If they don't, whether because they aren't in range or couldn't reach you, you get free HP damage. If they successfully assist punish you in the time frame available during Maelstrom, just assist change to lock it, repeat. If you never land a Maelstrom, I'm assuming Backbreaking Straw or any build with BRV Boost on Dodge + Block is involved, so no matter what the opponent does, you benefit (unless you screw up). Eventually you'll land an HP off a counter. If the opponent manages to get a full EX gauge, it'll never benefit them unless you get hit, so it doesn't matter. Can't EXR off of a stagger either, so no worries there anyway.

Really, assuming neither player makes a mistake (and I don't see why the Exdeath player would, considering this shouldn't be very hard to do), I don't see how anyone that can't counter Maelstrom or punish Turn Guard (Gilgamesh and Zidane can do this, maybe Jecht, Yuna, and Prishe as well) can win. Now, make no mistake, personally speaking I'd rather not ban characters, but I don't see how anyone that can't get around Maelstrom even stands a chance, and even then many of the characters that can get around Maelstrom are going to have a very hard time actually landing a hit, like Onion Knight, Kain, Golbez, and Terra. Of course, if BRV Boost on Quickmove is as viable as I hope it is against Exdeath, then anyone that can get around Maelstrom is pretty viable against him.
RP is his BnB attack. You can use it to run away from EX Mode, position your self correctly to grab EX Cores, pressure your opponent, and yes, wall rush them for assist shenanigans. A good Exdeath is usually spamming RP anyway.

But blocking and dodging attacks isn't as easy as it looks. Speaking from experience, people are tricky. They can trick you into Omni Blocking, or holding Turn Guard too long and then I'm eating an HP. In the same vein, they can whiff a BRV attack in front of me and expect me to drop Turn Guard. But when I don't, and they BRV attack me again, they eat a counter. These types of situations are what your theoryfighting isn't taking into account.

Any non-psychic human Exdeath is going to read the opponent wrong at least a few times. But that's where the challenge is. Reading your opponent's moves, and then timing the counters correctly so that you actually hit your opponent.

Do you know why I have Onion Knight an even matchup? Because Onion Knight can jump circles around Exdeath, he has a hella fast BRV attack, AND he can fake out with that new boost attack they gave him. You can still block it from dodges, but after a few tries Onion Knight usually figures out that it isn't a good idea to punish Exdeath's dodges. It's a rough matchup. I suggest going and finding one of the good Onion Knights and find out what I mean.

Narolf

11-20-2011, 11:06 PM

Alright then, since this new major is definitely going to be an iteration of Dissidence-D without Feral Chaos, I'd like to re-insist on hosting an Off.(Skill) tournament in parallel. I'm well-aware none of you guys is any keen of said ruleset, but there seems to remain quite a wide audience who prefers it over Official. Players would be able to enter both just fine.

I'd also like to take the poll as an opportunity to update the current competitive ruleset (used in the ladders), as per TKG's suggestion, with the rule you voted for the most: the ban of level 2 assist-changes counters, which would be put in application right on saturday.

TKG09

11-20-2011, 11:10 PM

So, what are the results?

Is Lvl 2 AC counter the only ban?

BTW Off Skill yourneys are a bad idea

Narolf

11-20-2011, 11:13 PM

There is no ban, the major will be Dissidence-D without FC, basically; yet we can bring the ban of level 2 AC to the ladders.

kewldude475

11-20-2011, 11:14 PM

In an Off. Skill tournament, I'd suggest banning EXR'ing after an HP attack.

EDIT: So wait, not even level 2 assist change counters are being banned?

RDFMASTER

11-20-2011, 11:56 PM

Off Skills is for noobs to play. Characters who can't chase in the air are going to suffer a lot.

Narolf

11-21-2011, 12:37 AM

EDIT: So wait, not even level 2 assist change counters are being banned?
...for the third time: no, it isn't in the major. Official is untouched, and Off.(Skill) will be untouched as well.

kewldude475

11-21-2011, 01:18 AM

My repeating of the fact that level 2 assist changes are allowed was more of an expression of shock, rather than asking a question.

Narolf

11-21-2011, 02:35 AM

Going to have to out-think your opponent then: anticipate the level 2 AC and act as such. This tournament will be the opportunity to see if that is of any avail.

kewldude475

11-21-2011, 02:45 AM

LonelyGaruga

11-21-2011, 04:05 AM

Speaking from experience, people are tricky. They can trick you into Omni Blocking, or holding Turn Guard too long and then I'm eating an HP. In the same vein, they can whiff a BRV attack in front of me and expect me to drop Turn Guard. But when I don't, and they BRV attack me again, they eat a counter. These types of situations are what your theoryfighting isn't taking into account.

You mean really basic mistakes that I'm fairly confident that you (and any competent Exdeath player) wouldn't actually make? I can understand assist traps. I can understand moves like One-Inch Punch and Hurricane. But the majority of the cast lacks that. As for theoryfighting, just look at how Ehx plays Exdeath to get an idea of how effective this strategy can be -.-

Any non-psychic human Exdeath is going to read the opponent wrong at least a few times. But that's where the challenge is. Reading your opponent's moves, and then timing the counters correctly so that you actually hit your opponent.

What part of the "playing lame" strategy did you not take into account? You shouldn't be allowing yourself to get in range of anything except easily blocked attacks. RP is a wonderful tool for both offensive and defensive measures. Either constantly spam it and render yourself borderline untouchable, or space properly with it. Why go through the effort of trying to block everything when you can slowly chip an opponent with RP and the occasional block/Maelstrom?

Do you know why I have Onion Knight an even matchup? Because Onion Knight can jump circles around Exdeath, he has a hella fast BRV attack, AND he can fake out with that new boost attack they gave him. You can still block it from dodges, but after a few tries Onion Knight usually figures out that it isn't a good idea to punish Exdeath's dodges. It's a rough matchup. I suggest going and finding one of the good Onion Knights and find out what I mean.

Ironically, I actually am one of those OK players. Any competent Exdeath player is going to make it hell for OK to get close enough to be a threat. I don't care what mixups he has, that range is killing him. RP counters every one of his air attacks as well, so there's really no point in even trying to block his BRV moves when you can just out-prioritize or assist punish him. The multi-jump thing becomes irrelevant as well since you can basically force dodges with RP pressure, robbing OK of his extra jumps.

EDIT: Just realized Zidane assist basically allows Exdeath to punish nearly anything Hop Step can while bypassing level 2 assist changes with Free Energy. Exdeath's incredibly viable assist camping potential makes this laughably easy, so Exdeath doesn't even need to worry about landing hits/blocking attacks, just needs to stall the opponent out until they whiff something Free Energy can punish. Find a similar ground assist to counter Revolver Drive (and other ground HPs that might be used to counter Maelstrom) and even EX Core camping against Exdeath won't be viable except on the very few characters that can still get around Maelstrom without risking that punish (I can think of Exdeath, Jecht, and...the rest need testing, but man, it's going to be small)

Narolf

11-21-2011, 12:25 PM

Hmm, it will make fighting Sephiroth in particular a lot harder. When I fought one particular Sephiroth, he was able to safely space, and use SF for assist gain, and whenever I attacked him with an HP, he could always just change and counter with HL, forcing me to either use my assist to change or take damage, effectively widening the gap between the characters snce the character I was using cannot counter. Just seems to widen the gap.You're missing the point then. X-Zone made the same speech as yours in the 009-Generation thread, but we, ultimately, need a bit more results in a tournament-setting before claiming Sephy's level 2 AC-countering definitely cannot be dealt with by any mean, as it isn't as obvious as Feral Chaos for instance; that's why untouched-Official got the majority of votes here.

Hosting an Official tournament without Feral Chaos was the aim ever since the end of Dissidence-D. The first three ladder tournaments (July, August and September) were played that way as well, but they remain too trivial data-wise. Again, we can keep the ban of level 2 AC-countering for the ladders just fine.

BTW Off Skill yourneys are a bad idea

Off Skills is for noobs to play. Characters who can't chase in the air are going to suffer a lot.

Off.(Skill) does remain a rather popular ruleset, regardless of how much you two assert it sucks--while your arguments for not considering it are relevant, it doesn't hurt to try opening a sign-ups thread and see the interest it harvests, if any. I don't think the both of you can understand where I'm getting at to be honest, seeing how haywire you went over the very proposition of banning the top 3, as if profanity had been pronounced.

Bloodsword83

11-21-2011, 02:51 PM

Then, if it's been decided, let us put up the threads for signups. I'm sick of waiting for tournaments.

In the words of Magneto:

THIS IS IT!

Narolf

11-21-2011, 02:58 PM

TKG09

11-21-2011, 03:40 PM

Uh, no rescheduling the ladders. If I can't play at the ladders I might as well quit, since this is the only time I ever get to play DDFF most of the time

Narolf

11-21-2011, 03:54 PM

I do have the impression most people still work at that time, however; not only Bloodsword, but Shmeckie used to complain about it as well.

Bloodsword83

11-21-2011, 04:41 PM

http://www.gamerama.fr/forum/img/smilies/smiley12.gif

You will have to wait for Spyder's green fire, though. He has been working on a promotional video-footage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39DHGx7LvMk&feature=channel_video_title) for the past three months now. Can't wait to see the outcome.

A shame you can't join the ladders because of work, by the way. Perhaps their start should be delayed by a notch, like two hours later than what it currently is.

I'll be able to make this week's ladder tournament. But as much as I would like to have it pushed back to accomodate(sp?) myself, threre are many other people who count on it happening at the usual time. So keep it where it is. :3

Uh, no rescheduling the ladders. If I can't play at the ladders I might as well quit, since this is the only time I ever get to play DDFF most of the time
Although, if rescheduling the ladders can remove the scourge of TKG lag...maybe we should. :3

j/k TKG <3