The DFF Ranking Rules. (Under Construction)

[NeroMD]

These rules are specifically meant for the future DFF Ranking fights.

Alright! Bring it! How do i sign up?
There will be a seperate topic called "The Dissidia Forum Ranking Sign Ups" You can sign up on that topic BUT you will only have a certain amount of time to sign yourself up. If the thread is closed it means sign ups are closed.


What are the combat rules?

Several abilitiies will be banned from the ranking because of the EXP day.
The following abilities that are banned.
-EXP to HP
-EXP to EX
-EXP to BRV

Infinites are NOT allowed on these fights. If used an infinite once you will have an immediate loss. Cloud has been fixed in the US version so you may use his Slash Blow more then once since it's dodgeable after the first hit.

EX Cores are allowed in this game but Ex Bursts are banned aswell. They take too much damage just for one button.
This allows characters show their unique skills in their EX form.
Using EX burst will cause immediate loss.
Ex Guarding is legit, A player can use this for defensive purposes.

Lag may occur in some fights but there is nothing we can do about.
So don't give out excuses "OH HE ONLY WON BECAUSE OF LAG" The opponent has lag too so you're just about even.

Dissidia Forum Player Rankings
The DF rankings will be decided by a points system. Each player who contends in a Ranking Tournament will gain points for their wins. Those who make it into the “Big Three” (1st 2nd and 3rd positions) will receive a big points bonus. At the end of a tournament, the points of each player will be tallied, and a roster will show each player’s name, character used, and points, with the three players with the most points accrued gaining a spot in the “Big Three!” Each tournament win also allows you to place a special icon in your DF signature that acts as a trophy for others to see.

Point Allocation
1st = 1000
2nd = 500
3rd = 250
Win = 100

Points are given for each win during a tournament, so even those who don’t make it into one of the final three slots can still accumulate a decent amount of points, giving them a higher place on the DF Roster. Be aware, as you will be required to contend in subsequent tournaments to keep accumulating points, allowing you to keep your position in the DF Roster, or possibly knock someone down a peg and earn yourself a higher place!

DF Tournament Combat Flow
Once a tournament begins, it will last for more than a week as we wait for all combatants to engage in their scheduled conflicts and the first tier of the tournament can be finished. This will continue until the final fight has been played out! But first, here’s how you get a piece of the action…

1) FALL IN! - When signing up for the tournament, you’ll place your name and the two characters you will be using throughout the tournament. Choose carefully, as you cannot swap out for other characters while the tournament is in play.

2) ROLL CALL! - After the tournament roster is filled out, you will be assigned your opponent. After setting up a time to do battle, you will inform the tournament moderator through a DF private message of which of your two characters you will be using for your subsequent match. Again, choose carefully.


3) ENGAGE! - After setting up a “Battle Date” with your opponent of when to fight. The two of you will engage in a three-round battle, with the first to reach two wins taking home the Victory! *cue fanfare*. As the fight comes to a close EACH PLAYER MUST SAVE AND SUBMIT THE THREE REPLAYS to the tournament moderator. If you fail to do so, you may very well forfeit. Any questions you may have about Replays can be directed to NeroMD.

4) RINSE! AND REPEAT! - If you’re a winner, you will proceed to the next tier of the tournament, where steps 2 and 3 will be repeated, until the final victor is decided. If you’re not a winner, come back for the next one! And in the meantime, train, train, train, and shoot for the “Big Three!”

[Dave880]

Is EX guard allowed? If so that changes the gameplay of the matches. It might result to a Cat and mouse game in order to avoid EXG.

[NeroMD]

Yeah it's allowed. Forgot to add that.

[Dave880]

Well this will be interesting then! Hope to hear more about it. Hopefully there will be more players.

[Weiss_Hikari]

I like these rules! Excellent job Nero! (Might wanna add banning equips and summons) And as for ExBurst, isn't there an Ex Burst auto-canceling ability?

I think we also have to figure out which abilities are legitimate as well. (I'll see if I can help you out once I get my copy... unless of course you finish before that. =P)

[Dave880]

I'm sure he will add onto those rules along with no Accessories.

[Weiss_Hikari]

Don't accessories go under no equipment?

[NeroMD]

Don't accessories go under no equipment?

Some people have the tendancy not to think so.

[Khriox]

This looks good, looking forward to proving myself with ExDeath.

[Dave880]

Usually people think of no equips as in no armor, weapons, gloves, and helmet. Hence its better to be specific in saying no equips/summons/accessories instead of hearing people complaining later @@.

[Khriox]

Getting rid of all that puts player skill at a higher bar.

If you loose without anything, the only person to blame for your win or loss is yourself.

[Weiss_Hikari]

Yeah. So, we all basically have the rules covered?

[Gates]

I'm sorry, but I personally would like to see a more convincing reason for EX Bursts being banned than just "they do a lot of damage". Look at Guilty Gear. Every character in that game has an instant kill move (you can probably guess what it does) that is tourney legal and completely legit. These are kills we're talking about, as in stuff you can't come back from. I've seen videos of people getting hit by EX bursts in Dissidia, surviving, and then coming back to win the match. It's certainly easier for the person who got the EX Burst off to win but it's not impossible for the other one. Dissidia is mostly about Brave anyway, HP is a minor resource. As long as the character who got Bursted on survives and gets a decent amount of Brave, he can come back and win. Plus, everyone has Regen in their EX mode anyway so if the character who's behind gets his EX mode too he can still come back even health-wise.

This banning of EX Bursts just seems to me like if the Street Fighter community agreed to ban Supers and Ultras or if the Marvel vs Capcom community agreed to ban assists. It's part of gameplay and not necessarily a completely random element (like items in Smash), so why not keep it in?

Other than that I am totally ok with the ruleset.

[Khriox]

I'm sorry, but I personally would like to see a more convincing reason for EX Bursts being banned than just "they do a lot of damage". Look at Guilty Gear. Every character in that game has an instant kill move (you can probably guess what it does) that is tourney legal and completely legit. These are kills we're talking about, as in stuff you can't come back from. I've seen videos of people getting hit by EX bursts in Dissidia, surviving, and then coming back to win the match. It's certainly easier for the person who got the EX Burst off to win but it's not impossible for the other one. Dissidia is mostly about Brave anyway, HP is a minor resource. As long as the character who got Bursted on survives and gets a decent amount of Brave, he can come back and win. Plus, everyone has Regen in their EX mode anyway so if the character who's behind gets his EX mode too he can still come back even health-wise.

This banning of EX Bursts just seems to me like if the Street Fighter community agreed to ban Supers and Ultras or if the Marvel vs Capcom community agreed to ban assists. It's part of gameplay and not necessarily a completely random element (like items in Smash), so why not keep it in?

Other than that I am totally ok with the ruleset.

I back this 100%, very well said Gates, +rep.

[NeroMD]

I'm sorry, but I personally would like to see a more convincing reason for EX Bursts being banned than just "they do a lot of damage". Look at Guilty Gear. Every character in that game has an instant kill move (you can probably guess what it does) that is tourney legal and completely legit. These are kills we're talking about, as in stuff you can't come back from. I've seen videos of people getting hit by EX bursts in Dissidia, surviving, and then coming back to win the match. It's certainly easier for the person who got the EX Burst off to win but it's not impossible for the other one. Dissidia is mostly about Brave anyway, HP is a minor resource. As long as the character who got Bursted on survives and gets a decent amount of Brave, he can come back and win. Plus, everyone has Regen in their EX mode anyway so if the character who's behind gets his EX mode too he can still come back even health-wise.

This banning of EX Bursts just seems to me like if the Street Fighter community agreed to ban Supers and Ultras or if the Marvel vs Capcom community agreed to ban assists. It's part of gameplay and not necessarily a completely random element (like items in Smash), so why not keep it in?

Other than that I am totally ok with the ruleset.


Having EX guard already at your disposal gives you an advantage, to top it off if you have enough brave you can just finish the fight with a burst. Squalls Burst does 1600 Damage while Cloud does atleast 2000 Damage, Also EX core is based on luck due to it's distance, There is no set pattern on where it appears. Although i heard "Luck" makes it appear closer to you.

Oh and Tidus has an overexaggerated EX Burst Damage it takes 2400 if you pull off a "Great"

Basically you can just finish the fight by delaying and using Ex Burst to break and gain alot of brave.

[Kite]

Another reason, hmm clouds ex burst does way more damage than others, the more hits equal more brave equal more damage, so it isnt really that fair, since he can kill easily from an omnislash v5 to another omnislash

[Ghurdrich]

I'd just like to take the opportunity to point out that IKs in Guilty Gear are pretty much a 1/100 chance of hitting most of the time, whereas with EX Bursts, it's just a brutal extension to your HP attack. What about, say, Firion, with his Blood weapons? Do you want to fight Firion twice because he healed to full after EX Bursting you? I agree that it's part of the gameplay, but in competitive play, everything has to be balanced, otherwise people will complain, and the whole system will start to crack.

[ssjkiego]

hmm...idk, its really up to nero and the gang so...

either way ill show up!

[Kraid]

I'm sorry, but I personally would like to see a more convincing reason for EX Bursts being banned than just "they do a lot of damage". Look at Guilty Gear. Every character in that game has an instant kill move (you can probably guess what it does) that is tourney legal and completely legit. These are kills we're talking about, as in stuff you can't come back from. I've seen videos of people getting hit by EX bursts in Dissidia, surviving, and then coming back to win the match. It's certainly easier for the person who got the EX Burst off to win but it's not impossible for the other one. Dissidia is mostly about Brave anyway, HP is a minor resource. As long as the character who got Bursted on survives and gets a decent amount of Brave, he can come back and win. Plus, everyone has Regen in their EX mode anyway so if the character who's behind gets his EX mode too he can still come back even health-wise.

This banning of EX Bursts just seems to me like if the Street Fighter community agreed to ban Supers and Ultras or if the Marvel vs Capcom community agreed to ban assists. It's part of gameplay and not necessarily a completely random element (like items in Smash), so why not keep it in?

Other than that I am totally ok with the ruleset.

Supers and Ultras in SFIV require set ups, whilst the Instant Kills in Guilty Gear are apprently very difficult. Might I remind you infinates are allowed in MvC2 also?

While in Dissidia, you can Ex-Block out of an attack, and while they're hitstunned, attack with an EX-Burst that's most likely game?

[Weiss_Hikari]

I agree with Nero and Kraid on this unfortunately. It's like Brawl with no ideas and no smash ball use (except in Dissidia the "smash ball" is already doing good stuff for you without being a final smash).

[Khriox]

Another reason, hmm clouds ex burst does way more damage than others, the more hits equal more brave equal more damage, so it isnt really that fair, since he can kill easily from an omnislash v5 to another omnislash

Actually, ExDeath's Ex-burst is ranked one of the highest in the bunch.

:P

[Kraid]

Actually, ExDeath's Ex-burst is ranked one of the highest in the bunch.

:P

Cloud's can do more damage with more the more health he has, but only at the 'kick off' off the Ex-Burst. The Slashes he does during the Ex-Burst are always the same =P

ExDeath however is universally always more powerful, as Khirox put. So Yea, QFE.

[Kite]

Actually, ExDeath's Ex-burst is ranked one of the highest in the bunch.

:P

wwouldnt know, I dont play him :p

[Weiss_Hikari]

Anyways as for rules, I think we should play with Chaos' Judgement. It's like Negative warning from BlazBlu. And it has penalties applied to those who don't attack and also makes the battle shorter in general as the longer it goes, the more BOTH characters get buffed=still balanced while cutting down time of a battle. =D

http://dissidia.wikia.com/wiki/Multiplayer

Thoughts?

[TWOxACROSS]

I'd almost say banning Ex-Guards, just because it's a guaranteed stagger for anyone that uses melee attacks against it, while most mages can get by with an "aw shucks, they blocked my magic," and then proceed from there.

However, the Ex-Guard is nice in a pinch. And can be enough to turn things around for a moment. Otherwise...everything seems to work out pretty well.

I would think, each replay should be recorded by one of the fighters as well, just for proof of victory, and so others can see the fights as well.

[Ghurdrich]

I agree with the Chaos Judgment. My friend and I play this way, and it makes things interesting, while still keeping balance.

[Kite]

But what if no one in the fight can or will record the battle

[NeroMD]

Replays are sent to me so i can compress and upload them on my youtube.

[Kite]

I see, but is it necessary

[TWOxACROSS]

So people can get more enjoyment out of the tournament. And then they can possibly see who their competition is going to be

[Advent-EVA]

Sounds interesting ^^

[Gates]

Having EX guard already at your disposal gives you an advantage, to top it off if you have enough brave you can just finish the fight with a burst. Squalls Burst does 1600 Damage while Cloud does atleast 2000 Damage, Also EX core is based on luck due to it's distance, There is no set pattern on where it appears. Although i heard "Luck" makes it appear closer to you.

Oh and Tidus has an overexaggerated EX Burst Damage it takes 2400 if you pull off a "Great"

Basically you can just finish the fight by delaying and using Ex Burst to break and gain alot of brave.


I'd just like to take the opportunity to point out that IKs in Guilty Gear are pretty much a 1/100 chance of hitting most of the time, whereas with EX Bursts, it's just a brutal extension to your HP attack. What about, say, Firion, with his Blood weapons? Do you want to fight Firion twice because he healed to full after EX Bursting you? I agree that it's part of the gameplay, but in competitive play, everything has to be balanced, otherwise people will complain, and the whole system will start to crack.I know how hard IKs are to hit, I was just using them as an example.

Also, you have a good point with your Firion example, but he could basically accomplish the same thing by just healing himself through his EX mode in general (though not necessarily fully).


Supers and Ultras in SFIV require set ups, whilst the Instant Kills in Guilty Gear are apprently very difficult. Might I remind you infinates are allowed in MvC2 also?

While in Dissidia, you can Ex-Block out of an attack, and while they're hitstunned, attack with an EX-Burst that's most likely game?I know that infinites are allowed in MvC2 and I also know that it's incredibly unbalanced for that reason among others.

Still, a lot of people have good points about EX Guards and how easily they set up into EX Bursts. What Nero said about the game basically degenerating into turtling until someone gets 5000 BP and then goes EX Guard -> HP Attack -> EX Burst is concerning, but I don't really see how it's different from waiting until you have 7000+ BP, getting full bar, turtling, and using an EX guard -> Brave attack and winning that way (not even being able to use EX Burst as a taunt when the opponent is already at 0 is a little disheartening on some level lol). It really only extends the length of time a match goes on instead of totally causing a shift in gameplay like you're implying. Some characters like Firion and Emperor do benefit from their EX Bursts more than others, but the benefits they have from it are given by their EX modes in general so it could be considered an unfortunate side-effect.

It's also stated in the OP that banning EX Bursts helps to encourage characters' EX Modes, and I disagree with that too. The benefits that the characters have from their EX Modes encourage the use of EX Modes. By bursting, many characters lose advantages they have from their EX modes.
All of them lose some sort of damage boost and Regen.
Cecil loses the ability to class change freely.
Bartz loses his additional attack, Goblin Punch (Other characters lose their additional attacks too, but Bartz's is probably the most commonly used and therefore the best).
Terra loses Doublecast, limiting her combo ability.
Cloud loses Guard Break.
Squall's Solid Barrel becomes blockable again.
Zidane loses partial immunity during jumps.
Garland loses Super Armor.
Cloud of Darkness loses the ability to stuff opponents attacks with her own HP attacks.
ExDeath's Guards have more lag afterwards.
Kefka's attacks become more predictable, taking away a lot of the mindgames he relies on.
Kuja loses his balls (that is to say, the ones that hang behind him).
Jecht's combos become more difficult and less manly.
Shantotto can't use HP attacks without losing Brave.
And do I even need to mention Gabranth?

That's about half the cast who gains a significant amount from their EX Modes and would lose it by bursting. Yes, a lot of these characters could just to the TurtleBurst strategy, but for the most part what they gain removes the necessity of not using it until it's kill time.

Also, about Firion - I'll fight him as many times as I have to. If he Bursts and I live it's not much different from any other character bursting and me surviving aside from me having to regain more BP.

[ssjkiego]

w...wait? no summons?!?!?! there goes Magic Pot...

[Kraid]

While it is true most characters will lose something if they burst instead of encouraged to use EX-Mode, but let's face it: Even with DualCasting/GoblinPunch/Unblockability, trading that off for WELL OVER Three QUARTERS of your oppoenet health is a really small trade off.

Most people won't take advantage of those bonuses, they'll kill with with Ex-Burst. Having that Ex-Burst ready in the open actually forces a turtle also. There's so many times where I've been primed for the kill, only I can't kill because if I attack, I have to eat an Ex-Guard -> Burst attack.

And I espcially hate it when I've got my oppoenet all the way down to around 400 health, I'm still on Max THEN they one shot me all because of the EX-Burst. In order to get around that, I have to either resort to a) my oppoenet being dumb or b) Defensive play while I wait for an EX-Core to appear, pray to myself it's near me so I can then have a chance of not having to be punished all because the oppoenet has been whoring EX all day.

You said you seen videos, tell me how often you see a character ACTUALLY abusing Ex-Mode without EX-Bursting. Me and my friends have once tried a 'No EX-Burst' policy, but allowed Ex-Moding. And you know, it's alot of fun, and it DOESN'T spoil the match at all.

Shantotto can kill in unequips with an Ex-Burst at a ridicous stge, because she doesn't even lose her Brave after an Ex-Burst.

Gabranth is pretty much nothing but Turtle -> Ex-Mode ready, shield, EX-Burst.

If you're worried about lag times with ExDeath's guards, I don't know what you're doing. But I don't think you're playing ExDeath right.

Kuja's balls are actually usually a precursor to an Ex-Burst. Land -> Flare Star -> ExBurst.

Solid Barrel is useless even in ExMode. The only time people use Solid Barrel is after a block or Thunder Bullet/Barret.

Otherwise the rest are precursors to Ex-Bursting (Except Sephiroth, Golbez and Terra.)

Also I'm kinda againest Chaos Ruling, since some characters, like Cloud, ExDeath and the Emperor would have to risk some pretty stupid attacks which could EASILY get punished. and it also kinds of put Ultimecia out of a job aswell.....

[Gates]

Well if the biggest problem with EX Bursts is how easily they can be done out of EX Guard, why not ban EX Guard like you suggested (or possibly limit it to only projectile attacks)? I guarantee that banning EX Guard will be more beneficial to the game than banning EX Bursts.

Why don't we do what they did for the infinites on Gamefaqs and hold 3 seperate tourneys, one with EX Guard banned but not EX Burst, one with EX Burst banned but not EX Guard, and one with both legal? Findings from each could be recorded and used to determine which course of action would be best for competitive play.

[Khriox]

I'm pretty sure taking out summons and equipment to make it an even playing field would be enough to make tournaments balanced.

[NeroMD]

Well if the biggest problem with EX Bursts is how easily they can be done out of EX Guard, why not ban EX Guard like you suggested (or possibly limit it to only projectile attacks)? I guarantee that banning EX Guard will be more beneficial to the game than banning EX Bursts.

Why don't we do what they did for the infinites on Gamefaqs and hold 3 seperate tourneys, one with EX Guard banned but not EX Burst, one with EX Burst banned but not EX Guard, and one with both legal? Findings from each could be recorded and used to determine which course of action would be best for competitive play.

He has a good point, I have to admit that I do have the tendancy to EX Guard by accident. So that could pose a problem.

Oh and Rules have been updated.

[TWOxACROSS]

I'm all for banning Ex-Burst AND Ex-Guard, but keeping in normal Ex-Mode. Possibly with a ruling that if you have a full Ex-Guage, or are already in Ex-Mode, you can't rush to an newly appearing Ex-Core, just to sustain yours or make sure the opponent doesn't get it...

[Rei-N]

Stupid question that's bound to be asked by somebody, so I'll ask it now to spare the trouble later:

"Can you EX burst if your opponent is already hit 0 HP?"

In other words, would flashy overkills be allowed?

[Khriox]

But automatically losing the game if you accidentally hit [] too many times?

Silly.

I know a Seph player, although a inexperienced one, who taps on the [] button when he does octaslash. Not necessarily a good example, but I wouldn't want him to LOSE because he accidentally tapped that [] button one too many times.

I think we're overacting about Ex-Bursts and Ex-Guards. They are in the game for a reason. Ex-Guards don't work 100% of the time. Meaning that timing can be off and your Ex-Guard can be wasted.

These elements are just apart of this game, and to tell you the truth, you should just be more careful when someone is in EX-mode. Perhaps that was the whole point in the first place, huh?

If our tournaments are adopting this rule, you can count me out.

[Kraid]

But automatically losing the game if you accidentally hit [] too many times?

Silly.

I know a Seph player, although a inexperienced one, who taps on the [] button when he does octaslash. Not necessarily a good example, but I wouldn't want him to LOSE because he accidentally tapped that [] button one too many times.

I think we're overacting about Ex-Bursts and Ex-Guards. They are in the game for a reason. Ex-Guards don't work 100% of the time. Meaning that timing can be off and your Ex-Guard can be wasted.

These elements are just apart of this game, and to tell you the truth, you should just be more careful when someone is in EX-mode. Perhaps that was the whole point in the first place, huh?

If our tournaments are adopting this rule, you can count me out.

Items and stages are in Melee/Brawl are in for a reason also, Should we ban those also? Besides, did you not say:


Getting rid of all that puts player skill at a higher bar.

If you lose without anything, the only person to blame for your win or loss is yourself.

Wouldn't you think that winning without Ex-Block/Burst would show even more skill? Then the only thing to REALLY blame is yourself, and not how you had to turtle and wait for an Ex-Core for like 20 minutes just so you can get that attack through.

It's one thing to be careful. It's another thing to be absoulately dominating your oppoenet, only for them to completely reverse by pressing two buttons, followed by pretty much death.

I know one person who I play who usually only wins by Ex-Moding out of attacks and then Attack -> Ex Burst. So I have to turtle him out until I get EX-Mode aswell.

[Khriox]

Yeah, I did.

But seeing as everyone is either against or for Ex-Bursting, I changed my mind.

In the end, It'll be the tournament organizer's call. Thats what I want to hear, not discussion about it.

[TWOxACROSS]

But automatically losing the game if you accidentally hit [] too many times?

Silly.

I know a Seph player, although a inexperienced one, who taps on the [] button when he does octaslash. Not necessarily a good example, but I wouldn't want him to LOSE because he accidentally tapped that [] button one too many times.

I think we're overacting about Ex-Bursts and Ex-Guards. They are in the game for a reason. Ex-Guards don't work 100% of the time. Meaning that timing can be off and your Ex-Guard can be wasted.

These elements are just apart of this game, and to tell you the truth, you should just be more careful when someone is in EX-mode. Perhaps that was the whole point in the first place, huh?

If our tournaments are adopting this rule, you can count me out.

The thing is...there are no HP attack out there (Barring Terra's Double-Casting) that requires more than one button press. And if they didn't know that, then they should know before entering the tournament.

[Khriox]

The thing is...there are no HP attack out there (Barring Terra's Double-Casting) that requires more than one button press. And if they didn't know that, then they should know before entering the tournament.

Alright, fair enough.

[ssjkiego]

Guess we will just have to wait for the Org's decision.Keep posting though, your reason's matter.
It would be locked if they didn't want more feedback.

[NeroMD]

I'm giving it some thought, I'm still leaning towards EX Core + Ex Guard + No Burst method. Alternatively, we can switch up each monthly's tourney with different rules.

[Kraid]

I have a semi-serious question. Am I allowed to equip accessories if they have nothing to do with the gameplay what so ever? And by that I mean anything that ups my AP, PP, Gil, Battle Rise or Modifers (Since equipping nothing but Modifers would do nothing since all other accessories are banned.)

[Khriox]

I have a semi-serious question. Am I allowed to equip accessories if they have nothing to do with the gameplay what so ever? And by that I mean anything that ups my AP, PP, Gil, Battle Rise or Modifers (Since equipping nothing but Modifers would do nothing since all other accessories are banned.)

Personally, I wouldn't fuss about it. It'd be nice to do that myself.

[ssjkiego]

The battle rise or drops? Or just the hassle of taking them off and on again?

[Gates]

Stupid question that's bound to be asked by somebody, so I'll ask it now to spare the trouble later:

"Can you EX burst if your opponent is already hit 0 HP?"

In other words, would flashy overkills be allowed?I sort of asked this in one of my earlier posts but it probably got lost in everything I had to say. I'd like to do Fatalities too.

Also, someone brought up some stages being banned in Smash and I'd like to ask if the same thing will be done here. Personally, I support the banning of some stages because a few characters have wall infinites (namely Golbez and CoD), but a majority of stages do not have this problem. I think the only ones I really think should be banned are Pandemonium, Magitek Research Facility, and maybe Ultimecia's level (I forget the name) because of the wall infinites.

[Weiss_Hikari]

Infinites are banned anways so we won't need to do stage banning.

I also think we should always play on the dynamic version of stages. =D

[NeroMD]

AP items are allowed.

as for the stage selection, I'm considering only allowing Cosmos stage for now. It's the most balanced stage for each character.

[Weiss_Hikari]

Like Final Destination eh? Hmm... well it is... like Chaos thorne too though right? And FFIII's stage is pretty balanced.

Also what did you think about having matches set to Chaos judgement?

[NeroMD]

Like Final Destination eh? Hmm... well it is... like Chaos thorne too though right? And FFIII's stage is pretty balanced.

Also what did you think about having matches set to Chaos judgement?

I'm kinda against it because characters like Strife need their time to find an opening.

[Weiss_Hikari]

Yeah but some battles last too long+It stops turtling.

[NeroMD]

Yeah but some battles last too long+It stops turtling.

Square Enix added an ability that forces the opponent to attack.
If not they start losing 200 BRV a tick.
It's called Snooze And Lose. (Check the Cloud versus Sephiroth video. It shows the ability there)

[Weiss_Hikari]

Ah. well if both players have that ability it should be fine then (Negative waring kinda thing). OR we could just have the judgement instead of that ability since both character get more powerful over the course of the match thus shortening it.

But hey, I guess you're right. Which C vs S video?

[NeroMD]

Ah. well if both players have that ability it should be fine then (Negative waring kinda thing). OR we could just have the judgement instead of that ability since both character get more powerful over the course of the match thus shortening it.

But hey, I guess you're right. Which C vs S video?

YouTube - +DFF English+ Cloud Versus Sephiroth -Adhoc Party- (Requested)

[Weiss_Hikari]

So both players should have this ability then... interesting, thank you for showing me that. Anything else you were thinking of?

[Gates]

Infinites are banned anways so we won't need to do stage banning.LMAO my bad, I guess that does make my question pointless.


I'm kinda against it because characters like Strife need their time to find an opening.You mean Cloud?

[Weiss_Hikari]

Yeah Cloud Strife. xD Cloud isn't supposed to be played aggressively.

[Rei-N]

I vote AGAINST having Cosmos Throne as the only playable stage for tournaments. All stages are perfectly legal (though if you really wanna toss something out, then perhaps FFVIII gimmick or FFI gimmick for the whole BRV break stuff; but I'm against it.) It is not the most balanced stage for all characters because it happens to be an open space with nothing to obstruct.

As for characters needing their time and what not, it's not the tournament organizer's place to baby each character's needs. That's like saying whenever there's a match with Golbeza in it...we should never play on FFVII's Northern Crater. Unless you can provide to me a detailed explanation why stages should be banned...I'm not sold.

I'm all for having starter stages and counter-pick; similar to what Brawl has.

[Khriox]

I'm kinda against it because characters like Strife need their time to find an opening.

Also any Gabranth player is going to hurt on a level like Chaos Throne.

[Kraid]

I vote AGAINST having Cosmos Throne as the only playable stage for tournaments. All stages are perfectly legal (though if you really wanna toss something out, then perhaps FFVIII gimmick or FFI gimmick for the whole BRV break stuff; but I'm against it.) It is not the most balanced stage for all characters because it happens to be an open space with nothing to obstruct.

As for characters needing their time and what not, it's not the tournament organizer's place to baby each character's needs. That's like saying whenever there's a match with Golbeza in it...we should never play on FFVII's Northern Crater. Unless you can provide to me a detailed explanation why stages should be banned...I'm not sold.

I'm all for having starter stages and counter-pick; similar to what Brawl has.

QFE. And here's the main reason:

I'm going to use the Emperor as an example. Should we ban all open stages because the Emperor has a disadvantage in any stage that is completely open or vertical? Should we ban the Magitek Facility/Kefka's Tower and Pandemonium because Ultimecia does not work there?

Someone mentioned the counterpick system in Brawl, and right now I don't think we could do that: There's a lack of a GOOD tier list (I don't think the one to GameFAQS is that well constructed.) However I do know for a fact that, for example, Ultimecia has a huge unfair advantage over several characters on Cosmos Arena (The Emperor and Cloud of Darkness being two off them.)

[icyie04]

I say, for the three rounds, let each of the players decide the first two stages before the fight, then the tie breaker round ( 3rd ) should be Cosmos Throne.

[TWOxACROSS]

I figured that enclosed spaces, ESPECIALLY the Chaos Throne, put many at a huge disadvantage with their walls. Emperor's attack that has magic missiles bouncing off the walls would be incredibly unfair to deal with for any melee character, and even Sephiroth's attacks can reach across the entire that entire arena.

While I agree with Sanctuary's Order for it's flatness, I'm actually quite partial to the Chaos Throne of the Past (FFI), it's large, but has cramped areas that can help out certain characters. It has a little bit of everything. It's one of my top favorites to play on.

[Gates]

I say, for the three rounds, let each of the players decide the first two stages before the fight, then the tie breaker round ( 3rd ) should be Cosmos Throne.I disagree with this too given that you're more likely to win on the stage of your choosing so almost every match will go to game 3. What you're suggesting is really the counterpick system in reverse.


Someone mentioned the counterpick system in Brawl, and right now I don't think we could do that: There's a lack of a GOOD tier list (I don't think the one to GameFAQS is that well constructed.) However I do know for a fact that, for example, Ultimecia has a huge unfair advantage over several characters on Cosmos Arena (The Emperor and Cloud of Darkness being two off them.)OK, first of all that's not how tier lists work. Second, that's not how the counterpick system works.

Tier lists do take into account how good a character is on different stages in its calculation, but by simply looking at one it won't tell you that information. For the most part, if you want to know why a character is good or bad on certain stages you need to ask the people who main that character.

In the smash counterpick system each player is allowed to ban a stage of their choosing from being counterpicked. This means that if you are up against a mage character you can easily ban Cosmos Throne if you want to.


I vote AGAINST having Cosmos Throne as the only playable stage for tournaments. All stages are perfectly legal (though if you really wanna toss something out, then perhaps FFVIII gimmick or FFI gimmick for the whole BRV break stuff; but I'm against it.) It is not the most balanced stage for all characters because it happens to be an open space with nothing to obstruct.
[...]
I'm all for having starter stages and counter-pick; similar to what Brawl has.I agree with this completely. As someone said before, Cosmos' Throne is like FD in Smash, and like FD it rewards characters with projectiles more than those without. I realize that 95% of the characters in this game have projectiles in some form or another (even Jecht's True Jecht Shot has a large, disjointed hitbox to a certain extent), but some have more projectiles than others. Because everyone has projectiles, even though some are more reliant on them than others, Cosmos' Throne is balanced for the most part and it could be considered a candidate for a starter stage (a Neutral as they would say in Smash) but I don't think the starting game of every match should be played on it. If we tried, we could probably create a stage list of what was possible to pick and then choose the first stage of the match to be played at random from the neutrals (barring that we can stage strike).

Here is the stage list that I personally recommend:

Neutral Stages
Chaos' Throne
Cosmos' Throne
Dream's End
Interdimensional Fortress
World of Darkness

Counterpick Stages
Chaos Shrine
Crystal World
Crystal World Gimmick
Dream's End Gimmick
Kefka's Tower
Kefka's Tower Gimmick
Interdimensional Fortress Gimmick
Lunar Subterrane
Lunar Subterrane Gimmick
Pandaemonium
Pandaemonium Gimmick
Planet's Core
Planet's Core Gimmick
Ultimecia's Castle
Ultimecia's Castle Gimmick
World of Darkness Gimmick

Banned
Chaos Shrine Gimmick
Chaos' Throne Gimmick
Cosmos' Throne Gimmick

[Weiss_Hikari]

On the main page it says only two characters. Why not three? We can play with 1st player to three wins, and use 3 characters. =O

I think this would be a bit more interesting than simply two.

[icyie04]

Why not let the player who got challenged set the first map.Plus maps are just terrains, you can still win even with a map disadvantaged.

Or you could let both players agree on the maps before the fight.

[Gates]

Why not let the player who got challenged set the first map.Plus maps are just terrains, you can still win even with a map disadvantaged.

Or you could let both players agree on the maps before the fight.Hmm, that sounds fair. However, the challenger should get a ban anyway and tell it to the player getting challenged beforehand (ex: If I wanted to challenge you I'd say "Gates Challenges icyie to best of 3 and bans Pandemonium" or something to that effect). And I still think a few stages should be permabanned, but generally I want there to be lots of freedom in stage choice, especially since no stage in Dissidia come close to the weirdness of most of the banned stages in Smash (75m, Mario Bros, Spear Pillar, etc.) so we don't need as large of a ban list.

I also think Hikari's idea of choosing 3 characters instead of two is a good idea, especially if we're going to be locked into those choices for the whole tourney. Most people are dedicated to their mains and will mostly just use those anyway, but for those who like using lots of characters or need more than one secondary for some reason they're pretty much screwed over by this decision. Most people have only 2 characters they really use a lot (a main and a secondary) so this is a relatively small issue, but it still needs to be addressed.

[icyie04]

As for me, I use a wide range of chars because I like having fun with them. It gets boring if I constantly use Tidus/Cloud/Terra. I second the 3 char limit.

[RDFMASTER]

Do this only apply for Ad party online i ask because i don't have a PS3 and Xlink kai is my only option :)

[Weiss_Hikari]

We're only talking about Ad-Hoc at the moment. But I guess it could for X-Link or any tournament. xD

[Khriox]

I back Gate's list.

Seems fair enough.

Plus Icyie's idea.

[superangelo128]

I second the Gate's Stage List and 3 character rule

[Khriox]

As for me, I use a wide range of chars because I like having fun with them. It gets boring if I constantly use Tidus/Cloud/Terra. I second the 3 char limit.


See, I'm the exactly opposite. I really enjoy only playing one character and mastering them.

[NeroMD]

Okay I'll add Gate's rule and the 3 character rule. Also to Superangelo this is Adhoc exclusive.

[Weiss_Hikari]

All right. ^.^

Anyone wanna second my chaos judgement instead of snooze and lose thing?

Fine then. ;-;

[superangelo128]

Okay I'll add Gate's rule and the 3 character rule. Also to Superangelo this is Adhoc exclusive.

Oh don't worry I know.

In fact I'm really stoked to play AdHoc soon when I get the game.

[Xprtsnpr]

Sounds very interesting, so its basically going to end up that you have to be close to level 100 to even stand a chance...

[Khriox]

So would it be alright if I did this?

1st Character: ExDeath
2nd Character: ExDeath
3rd Character: ExDeath

[Ghurdrich]

Sounds very interesting, so its basically going to end up that you have to be close to level 100 to even stand a chance...

I was under the impression that being level 100 was a criteria for participation. Wouldn't really be fair otherwise, since come characters (Cecil) have a slower growth rate than others.

[NeroMD]

You have to be level 100 in order to participate and yes you can stick with one character.

[Kite]

Well yea, getting to level 100 isnt that hard

[Weiss_Hikari]

So would it be alright if I did this?

1st Character: ExDeath
2nd Character: ExDeath
3rd Character: ExDeath

Yup. If you really want to have only one character then yes. 3 just provides variety, if you don't want it then fine, show your pro Ex Death skills and own. xD

[Advent-EVA]

How can I register myself in this tournament?

[Weiss_Hikari]

When there's a registration topic up. Besides, we have about a month before we're goign to think about anything anyways. xD

[Xprtsnpr]

good, a month, gives me some time to test all characters and lv 3 to 100

[Weiss_Hikari]

good, a month, gives me some time to test all characters and lv 3 to 100

Actually you can probably get most if not all characters to level 100 if you use the ExDeath trick.

[Xprtsnpr]

Actually you can probably get most if not all characters to level 100 if you use the ExDeath trick.

I plan on trying to lv at least 1 of the 3 without the trick for some sense of acclomplishment ya know?

But yes i will proaably lv the other 2 with the trick

[Gates]

I back Gate's list.

Seems fair enough.

Plus Icyie's idea.


I second the Gate's Stage List and 3 character rule


Okay I'll add Gate's rule and the 3 character rule. Also to Superangelo this is Adhoc exclusive.That's not the possessive form of my name guys. It's Gates' or Gates's, not Gate's.

But w/e lol I'm glad my rule actually got accepted. Feel free to change the stage list later on as you see fit. I think that it would be a good idea for the community as a whole to review the stage list once every 3 months or so until the list goes for more than 6 months without changes. Then we can change it to yearly or whatever.


All right. ^.^

Anyone wanna second my chaos judgement instead of snooze and lose thing?

Fine then. ;-;Somehow Chaos Judgement seems a little too extreme. It can certainly be tested though.


So would it be alright if I did this?

1st Character: ExDeath
2nd Character: ExDeath
3rd Character: ExDeathThat's a legit strategy.


Actually you can probably get most if not all characters to level 100 if you use the ExDeath trick.No, they adjusted ExDeath's AI so that might not be possible anymore. Cloud's AI is still really dumb though so you could use him as a leveling dummy.

[Ghurdrich]

Man, you guys and your haxxorz. Am I the only one who isn't gonna use the trick? At least that way I get a feel for the characters. (I'm subbing two different people than who I used in the Japanese version. Butz and the Emperor, instead of Golbez and Firion)

[Kite]

I dont use the trick, I just spam the shit out of long range hp attacks when Im far enough, you can get a feel for them after you get all their moves.

[Weiss_Hikari]

Either way... get to level 100. xD

So anyone have any other rules to add yet before tomorrow when we're all going to be playing?

[K´Genesis]

After reading 10 pages of suggestions, I think I´m ready to contribute a little...=)

Ex-Cores/Guard/Burst: I´ll go backwards on this. Ex-Burst CANNOT be compared to MvC2 infinites, GG Instant Kills or whatever, no matter how you say it...because of one simple thing: skill. It only takes one button press to do high extra damage, possibly ending the match right there, rewarding non-combative players who back away from combat waiting for Ex-Cores to appear. Although I concede that Ex-Bursts are part of the game mechanics, it doesn´t mean that the mechanics are perfect and should be intact. Ex-Bursts were a poorly designed last resort that resulted in game-breaking possibilities. We already have an almost-winning-almost-losing mechanic in the form of BRV/HP relationship(Break and BRV = 0 after successful HP Attack), which makes matches not so predictable.

Ex-Guard follows on the pattern of rewarding the "chicken" player, but at a lesser degree if you decide to remove Ex-Bursts from the equation. In my opinion, it is a counter-concept to another controversial mechanic from this game: HP Links. Some have them, some don´t. If you´re hit by a BRV attack with a low BRV or HP count, the match is over. Considering how easy it is to land a BRV attack compared to a HP one, this presents some problems. Ex-Guard deals with it at some degree and all is fine. It´s not something that can be abused, but a stable resort to tough situations. Without Ex-Bursts, this actually becomes just another tool. An almost-well-implemented one, IMHO(I always thought it should stagger both players instead of just the attacker).

Ex-Cores...well, it´s not something you can just remove from the game, but there is an option that guarantees balance and makes Ex problems not problems anymore. And what is it, you ask. Why, it´s simple: Every character comes equipped with ONLY Bone Mail. Problem solved. It completely kills Gabranth, though.
If Ex-Bursts and Ex-Guards become too much of a problem, it can be solved. But, IMHO, Ex-Guards should stay, as long as Ex-Bursts go.


Stages: Are you serious? Banning stages? I mean, sure...they are part of counter-picks. But no character becomes unplayable in any stage at all. A solution to avoid counter-picks would be to previously select stages for each fight before the opponents are chosen. Example:

Branch 1: Cosmos Throne - Player ? x Player ?
Branch 2: Pandaemonium - Player ? x Player ?

and so on...after players are assigned, they choose the character that better suits them on the stage they got. There will be three choices anyway. The strategy starts there, in choosing your team. Suppose I have The Emperor, Ultimecia and Jecht as my choices. When the branches come out, we know which stages will be played and what are the possibilities. After the match-ups are done, we will know where we´ll be playing and, using that information, we can choose the best character for that stage, if the main fares poorly. Using this team as an example, if I know I´ll be playing in Kefka´s Tower, Ultimecia is not a good choice for this branch. It only depends on if I know my opponent´s style and which character gives me the best results in this scenario. Both Jecht and Emperor do well and I have two matches to think my strategy, with two very different characters to approach the situation. See how the fight begins even before players start mashing buttons? If you can´t adapt to each situation, it means there is a flaw already in its construction. And this involves the player and his skills alone.


Chaos Judgement: Snooze And Lose is a very expensive alternative to avoid unnecessary turtling, although viable and very good. Nevertheless, Chaos Judgement is imperative to keep things going. Characters like Cloud and The Emperor need momentum, sure. But they have relatively simple attacks that won´t cost them any breaches at all. A simple dodge-cancel resets their timer, which is considerably long(10 seconds, I believe). But nothing justifies dodging and running all around(which we know is only because they are waiting for Ex-Cores to appear), ruining the fight. Cautious play is one thing. Heavy Turtling, when we know the game favors this using broken mechanics is another story.


For now, that should do it. Reminding that this is only my opinion. Summarizing:

Ex Cores: YES
Ex Guards: YES
Ex Bursts: NO
Stage-bannings: NO
Chaos Judgement: YES

[Gates]

Stages: Are you serious? Banning stages? I mean, sure...they are part of counter-picks. But no character becomes unplayable in any stage at all. A solution to avoid counter-picks would be to previously select stages for each fight before the opponents are chosen. Example:

Branch 1: Cosmos Throne - Player ? x Player ?
Branch 2: Pandaemonium - Player ? x Player ?

and so on...after players are assigned, they choose the character that better suits them on the stage they got. There will be three choices anyway. The strategy starts there, in choosing your team. Suppose I have The Emperor, Ultimecia and Jecht as my choices. When the branches come out, we know which stages will be played and what are the possibilities. After the match-ups are done, we will know where we´ll be playing and, using that information, we can choose the best character for that stage, if the main fares poorly. Using this team as an example, if I know I´ll be playing in Kefka´s Tower, Ultimecia is not a good choice for this branch. It only depends on if I know my opponent´s style and which character gives me the best results in this scenario. Both Jecht and Emperor do well and I have two matches to think my strategy, with two very different characters to approach the situation. See how the fight begins even before players start mashing buttons? If you can´t adapt to each situation, it means there is a flaw already in its construction. And this involves the player and his skills alone.First of all, I only want to ban the 3 most broken gimmick stages. It's not because any specific character does poorly on them, it's because they're just generally broken for one reason or another. Chaos Shrine Gimmick makes players continually lose BP overtime which will extend the length of the game and effectively create a permanent Snooze and Lose effect which would be especially bad if Snooze and Lose were to be used instead of Chaos Judgment which it is in the current incarnation of the rules. Chaos' Throne Gimmick has the same effect and a random Stage Brave pool instead of a normal increasing one which can increase . Order's Sanctuary Gimmick is the least bannable out of the three since the only real reason for banning it is because each break doubles your brave pool which can make matches a little too short at times. Certainly each of these stages is not broken to the point of nobody being able to play on them but they still have a greater effect on the game than any of the other stages. Also, I was not trying to cater to any characters that do poorly on certain stages when I wrote the list.

Second, I'm not entirely sure what your idea of stage selection is because you don't describe any sort of tiebreaking system. Assuming that both players win on the stages they choose, what will happen then? Will you do a tiebreaker on a random stage? If so, why not just start the first match on a random stage to cut down on time?Sorry but this isn't very clear to me.

[K´Genesis]

About the stages, well...the gimmicks are perks that come with each stage.
It´s a difficulty that both players will have to deal with.

And I´m sure you didn´t mean anything about the characters nor my view of it suggested it and I´m sorry if it seemed that way. But it seems illogical to ban the three stages whatsoever. Why?

Because if it´s a player´s choice, how exactly would those three stages benefit himself, being all three of them open environments with perks that affect both players, meaning there would be no strategical advantage, except for character choosing? His so-called "advantage" could easily backfire on him. And, if that player feels the stage could be prejudicial, he wouldn´t choose it at all. If a match will end too soon or too late, that was a player´s choice, for good or bad.

The only real critical combination I can see in this case is Gimmick Cosmos Throne + Slash Blow->Omni v5 at the start of a match, especially if any hit becomes a critical. But that´s it and it should be avoided by the opponent if he knows what he is up against. Other than that, Cloud is at a disadvantage, depending on who he´s fighting, for the rest of the match because of the open environment.


And you clearly haven´t understood the concept of my idea for the stages. There would be no choosing of stages on the players´ behalf. The choice would come before the actual fight as stated in:

"A solution to avoid counter-picks would be to previously select stages for each fight before the opponents are chosen. Example:

Branch 1: Cosmos Throne - Player ? x Player ?
Branch 2: Pandaemonium - Player ? x Player ?"

This means that each match would have a previously selected stage before the actual contenders for said match were even chosen. All three duels would be fought on the same stage and the only thing that could change are the characters that would be used in each round. It avoids counterpick and allows players to plan ahead.

[Anub617]

How do i join?

[Gates]

About the stages, well...the gimmicks are perks that come with each stage.
It´s a difficulty that both players will have to deal with.I meant the alternate forms of the stage (in the original JP version the names roughly translated to "Gimmick" instead of "Alternate").


And you clearly haven´t understood the concept of my idea for the stages. There would be no choosing of stages on the players´ behalf. The choice would come before the actual fight as stated in:

"A solution to avoid counter-picks would be to previously select stages for each fight before the opponents are chosen. Example:

Branch 1: Cosmos Throne - Player ? x Player ?
Branch 2: Pandaemonium - Player ? x Player ?"

This means that each match would have a previously selected stage before the actual contenders for said match were even chosen. All three duels would be fought on the same stage and the only thing that could change are the characters that would be used in each round. It avoids counterpick and allows players to plan ahead.ok, I understand it better now. It still seems like it would take longer than letting each player counterpick. It also raises a bunch of questions. Who decides the stages? Do they play all 3 games on that one stage? Will all stages for all rounds be decided before the tourney starts?

I really think that the counterpick system is more reliable right now, especially since it has proven results.

[K´Genesis]

I meant the alternate forms of the stage (in the original JP version the names roughly translated to "Gimmick" instead of "Alternate").

ok, I understand it better now. It still seems like it would take longer than letting each player counterpick. It also raises a bunch of questions. Who decides the stages? Do they play all 3 games on that one stage? Will all stages for all rounds be decided before the tourney starts?

I really think that the counterpick system is more reliable right now, especially since it has proven results.


For that matter:

- The organization, from branch to branch
- Yes. Avoids stage counter-pick. Character cp is enough
- Before each branch begins, the organization would determine which fights, sorted by numbers(suppose quarter-finals, match 1 at Stage ???, match 2 at Stage ???, match 3 at stage ???, match 4 at stage ???), would occur where, before sorting the players out


Never hurts to remember these are only suggestions.

[RDFMASTER]

When the tournament start, we need either videos or images of who wins the battle too :) .

I can register to be judge :)

[Uzuro]

since we have the choice in-game and its easier, i think videos should me made as plausable and enjoyable experience.

[Gates]

For that matter:

- The organization, from branch to branch
- Yes. Avoids stage counter-pick. Character cp is enough
- Before each branch begins, the organization would determine which fights, sorted by numbers(suppose quarter-finals, match 1 at Stage ???, match 2 at Stage ???, match 3 at stage ???, match 4 at stage ???), would occur where, before sorting the players out


Never hurts to remember these are only suggestions.When you say "the organization" do you mean just the people playing in that match, those people plus the TO, everyone else in that round, everyone else in that round plus the TO, everyone who's been eliminated, or something else?

I know these are just suggestions (and they're really not that bad), but you're not being very clear here.

[K´Genesis]

By that, I mean the Tournament Organization.
I believe that would be NeroMD and anyone he chooses as staff to the tourney, right? No players involved in that specific choice(stages).

Where are the other people to discuss this, anyway?

[Gates]

By that, I mean the Tournament Organization.
I believe that would be NeroMD and anyone he chooses as staff to the tourney, right? No players involved in that specific choice(stages).ok, that seems reasonable I suppose. For time's sake, could he also just choose to do random stages for the first round of a tourney if it's especially large?


Where are the other people to discuss this, anyway?They probably have, you know, lives.:) jk maybe everyone set their Special Day to Saturday and they wanted to get started at midnight.

Also, I forgot to tell you this earlier but I like your Bone Mail idea, but it screws over Gabranth and I think excluding a non-broken character from the game is worse than the problems created by EX Core/Guard/Mode/Burst. Good try though. Maybe the TO could implement it if there are no Gabranth players?

[BiggieSmalls]

I feel that EX bursts should be legal. It is too restricting to ban them, because they don't really seem very unfair. Another point I want considered is the banning or limitation of accessories that let you live when you'd normally be killed by an HP attack.

[Ghurdrich]

I feel that EX bursts should be legal. It is too restricting to ban them, because they don't really seem very unfair. Another point I want considered is the banning or limitation of accessories that let you live when you'd normally be killed by an HP attack.

The fights would be naked, so that wouldn't be a problem.

[Gates]

The fights would be naked, so that wouldn't be a problem.With Cloud of Darkness, every fight is a naked fight.

[Ghurdrich]

With Cloud of Darkness, every fight is a naked fight.

icwhatudidthar

[BiggieSmalls]

The fights would be naked, so that wouldn't be a problem.

What do you mean by naked?

[Ghurdrich]

What do you mean by naked?

Means no Equips, No accessories, and I think no Summons?

[BiggieSmalls]

Means no Equips, No accessories, and I think no Summons?

..Those are in the standard rules of this site?

[TWOxACROSS]

..Those are in the standard rules of this site?

Not really standard rules for DF itself, but they've become a standard rule in a lot of friendly matches, just because not everyone you fight may have the best equipment you do, plus it gets rid of some of those more annoying perks, like the aforementioned living off of your BRV when you'd normally be KO'd.

[K´Genesis]

ok, that seems reasonable I suppose. For time's sake, could he also just choose to do random stages for the first round of a tourney if it's especially large?

Why not? As long as there is no counter-pick and it´s a fair decision, it would be perfectly understandable.
But a simple write-down-all-stages-in-a-piece-of-paper-and-choose-one-randomly would get the job done anyway, taking 5 more minutes of one´s life.


They probably have, you know, lives.:) jk maybe everyone set their Special Day to Saturday and they wanted to get started at midnight.

ZOMG! Lives?!?!? Wat iz taht, siiiiir?!?!?!?


Also, I forgot to tell you this earlier but I like your Bone Mail idea, but it screws over Gabranth and I think excluding a non-broken character from the game is worse than the problems created by EX Core/Guard/Mode/Burst. Good try though. Maybe the TO could implement it if there are no Gabranth players?

Yeah, I know. Even I don´t like the idea of destroying Gab because that´s unnecessary, but like I said: it´s a last resort, if no agreement is possible on that matter(Ex stuff).


And the thing with Ex Bursts, to player on the last page, is that no matter how you look at it, it´s high free damage that:
- comes from no skill at all
- is unavoidable
- highly rewards a "defensive"(more like chicken) stance during the fight, encouraging people to runaway until their Ex bar is full
- simply ends a fight more often than not.

Summing it up: Yes, it is unfair.
There simply are no positive points for keeping Ex-Bursts, unless you can present us one.

[Rei-N]

Was reading this new set of rules, and was liking what I was seeing...till I saw the Chaos Judgment rule brought in. I suppose it's a trend nowadays that people like it because it forces people away from the turtling and planking...but there is a problem with the idea.

Turtling is not illegal in high-level tournaments.

I'll join the band wagon and say that I don't enjoy fighting turtles on ADHP any more than most other people, but playing that way is a legitimate strategy and completely legal (albeit superbly annoying.) What IS banned within tournaments though, is purposely stalling a match out.

By placing that hefty law of Chaos Judgment on, characters that do need to take their time and not take so many needless risks will be forced to do so; only for the sake of "speeding up" the match. Again, tournament organizer's jobs are not to baby (or on the opposite hand, defect) any particular character and try to make it as fair...or more skill based as possible to define the best player.

What we, as a Dissidia fighting community, should define is the line between being a turtle/campy player v.s. simply stalling time for no real apparent reason. Be it a time rule or what not, as well as taking into consideration that someone could simply abuse the waiting time and throw out a poor excuse of an attack simply to reset their time.

Much like Cloud players I've seen do in tournaments that enforced an pro-aggro rule: Cast Fire, BDC, Cast Fire, BDC, keep away from them until they get too close and reckless. Your rule would simply enforce this part, patient characters utilizing low risk attacks to bypass the judgment and still going about taking their time.

Also, the alternate rule to Chaos Judgment (the stat boosting one) imbalances certain character's lethality and gives even more advantages to a player that chooses them. Zidane and OK's damage output is remedied even more so with the damage boosting (not counting they have crit abilities already on), long range attacks that have low power all of a sudden become excellent damage dealers...etc. You have to consider that too.

And I vote we have a stage discussion topic soon degozu~! ;P

[Gates]

I don't really know if you can use the term planking in this game since it usually refers specifically to ledgecamping in Smash.

[K´Genesis]

Much like Cloud players I've seen do in tournaments that enforced an pro-aggro rule: Cast Fire, BDC, Cast Fire, BDC, keep away from them until they get too close and reckless. Your rule would simply enforce this part, patient characters utilizing low risk attacks to bypass the judgment and still going about taking their time.

And I really wouldn´t have a problem with that.
The problem is people who purposedly stall a match waiting until an Ex Core. And that happens a lot.
Is it viable? Yes, the game allows for it.
Is it OK? I really don´t think so, since it goes directly as you say, although there is a reason people would stall the match.
Turtling as a strategy is perfectly fine. Hell, I´m a Guile player in ST...stalling in order to snatch Ex Cores...hmm...I really don´t know.

[Kraid]

Was reading this new set of rules, and was liking what I was seeing...till I saw the Chaos Judgment rule brought in. I suppose it's a trend nowadays that people like it because it forces people away from the turtling and planking...but there is a problem with the idea.

Turtling is not illegal in high-level tournaments.

I'll join the band wagon and say that I don't enjoy fighting turtles on ADHP any more than most other people, but playing that way is a legitimate strategy and completely legal (albeit superbly annoying.) What IS banned within tournaments though, is purposely stalling a match out.

By placing that hefty law of Chaos Judgment on, characters that do need to take their time and not take so many needless risks will be forced to do so; only for the sake of "speeding up" the match. Again, tournament organizer's jobs are not to baby (or on the opposite hand, defect) any particular character and try to make it as fair...or more skill based as possible to define the best player.

What we, as a Dissidia fighting community, should define is the line between being a turtle/campy player v.s. simply stalling time for no real apparent reason. Be it a time rule or what not, as well as taking into consideration that someone could simply abuse the waiting time and throw out a poor excuse of an attack simply to reset their time.

Much like Cloud players I've seen do in tournaments that enforced an pro-aggro rule: Cast Fire, BDC, Cast Fire, BDC, keep away from them until they get too close and reckless. Your rule would simply enforce this part, patient characters utilizing low risk attacks to bypass the judgment and still going about taking their time.

Also, the alternate rule to Chaos Judgment (the stat boosting one) imbalances certain character's lethality and gives even more advantages to a player that chooses them. Zidane and OK's damage output is remedied even more so with the damage boosting (not counting they have crit abilities already on), long range attacks that have low power all of a sudden become excellent damage dealers...etc. You have to consider that too.

And I vote we have a stage discussion topic soon degozu~! ;P

Two things: First I agree. I don't want Chaos Rule. =/ I'm a defensive player in my own right (Except when playing Ultimecia.)

Second: As much as a 'Stage discussion topic' is a good idea, I can't help but think we're turning this game into Super Dissidia Bros.

[Weiss_Hikari]

Being imobalized by Chaos Judgement is easily remidied by firing off a random brave attack or using a long range attack at a wall etc.

Just stating. But some characters can't though. =O

[Rey Magnus]

I stand by my first suggestion. It's your first tournament, make it no holds barred.

[Weiss_Hikari]

There've actually been a few tournaments before. I know there was one to ban infinites.

[Rey Magnus]

Did you guys run it?

I come from MvC2, and I can safely say that the reason that game survived 10 years and is STILL alive, is because they never limited the game. They allow EVERYTHING.

Limiting your game so early will ruin you.

[Kraid]

Being imobalized by Chaos Judgement is easily remidied by firing off a random brave attack or using a long range attack at a wall etc.

Just stating. But some characters can't though. =O

I play The Emperor, so waiting and biding IS my game.

Now when I went againest Dave, (Zidane) I couldn't risk a meaningless attack with Emperor, otherwise I get punished FOR attacking. By imposing Chaos Rule, I'd get punished for Attacking AND/OR Waiting for the right moment. Is that fair? No.

I think really we shouldn't ban anything except EX-Burst, Accessories, Summons and Equipment. No banning stages or anything else yet until we have a definite result on what's breaking the tournament scene.

We can't really talk about counterpicking systems yet because everyone will be BIASED. And for god sake, No Chaos Judgement/Rule/Law.

[Kite]

Nope, we didnt run anything, atleast none that I know of, till the upcoming tournament, there were also quite a few tourneys in Japan while I was there, but you have to really look for them, a few didnt ban anything, and most of the time cloud won, later they did ban infinites and yea, but none banned ex bursts

[Weiss_Hikari]

Wow... that's... not cool. Cloud wins with Hax! Exp>Hp then Ex Burst... Cloud at full Hp kills with that!

Judgement would need to be tested in another tournemnt though, not a ranking one, so yeah. It could be pretty small scale compared to this one and have character who are supposed to wait and bid their time against characters who don't (half and half) and then from analyzing replas we could determine fairness.

Just a though for the future though.

[K´Genesis]

Oh, just for info´s sake and improving on my Bone Mail suggestion:

Force Begets Courage could also help.
Effect:

"Ex Core and Ex Force goes to BRV"


I play The Emperor, so waiting and biding IS my game.

We can't really talk about counterpicking systems yet because everyone will be BIASED.

And for god sake, No Chaos Judgement/Rule/Law.


But isn´t that biased?

[Rey Magnus]

Well, if you play Emperor, Chaos Rule won't allow you to play Emperor the way he should be played. Losing brave is one thing, but getting a free hit is another.

[Gates]

Rey, the difference between Marvel infinites and Dissidia infinites is that Marvel infinites take a lot of skill to execute. Dissidia infinites are more like Do a move, dodge cancel, do a move, dodge cancel, etc. or sometimes even simpler than that like CoD's AA Particle Beam Ceiling Infinite.

However, after playing on all the stages enough, I can say that I withdraw my statement about how some stages should be banned. While it is true that some stages benefit some characters more than others but none are truly broken. Compare these 3 videos about Ultimecia's Tower:

YouTube - Entrapping Cloud: A Dissidia Production (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcVfmyYD6so)
YouTube - +DFF Forums+ Tidus Vs Zidane (Dave88334) -Adhoc Party- (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCBhowNEeik)
YouTube - Dissidia: Cecil (Me) vs Tidus (Nero) Ad Hoc Party (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqdfLzMNEPw)

As you can see, Emperor does well on this stage since it's a good place to set up traps, while Tidus and Cecil are both hindered due to their HP attacks having issues with the ceiling.

As far as the comparison to Smash goes, they are similar in the sense that unlike most fighting games stage choice matters and can greatly affect matchups. They are also similar in the sense that the developers did not originally intend for a competitive community to be built around it (fortunately though the Dissidia staff realized there was one and rebalanced it wheras Nintendo was too busy counting their money). I lol'd when someone called it Super Dissidia Brothers though.

[Rey Magnus]

Well, I'm not defending infinites. I just find the fact that everyone wants to limit a lot of the things even before their first tournament to be very stupid.

Sure, no items, no infinites, ban some broken summons, that'll do for a first time, but going "No Items! No ExBurst! No ExGuard! No ExMode! Squall only! COSMOS!" before even seeing the results is kinda stupid.

[Gates]

For the record, early Smash tournaments DID use items but they were gotten rid of shortly afterward because they were agreed to be unbalanced.

Also, I'm still up for Equips Tourneys but I think they should be like a side event, like low tier tourneys in Marvel.

[Masaru]

I believe I shall start participating in this discussion. I have some things to say, myself. My own opinions to share and whatnot.

But first, might I suggest some light reading? Not all of the content may be useful (or relevant) when applied to a game like Dissidia, but surely something in there might be useful to us, no?

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html

There you all go. Please, someone read it.

EDIT: Okay, so, not much of it can be applied to Dissidia, but I feel there's still something we can divine from these words....

[Rey Magnus]

@Gates: That's what I'm saying, you can't ban everything the first time. Me and Kraid were actually discussing whether items are fair or not in some cases, and we agreed that making two tournament formats for them would really help.

@Masaru: I read that before, good shit. Sirlin is the guy that rebalanced HD Remix, right? If anybody knows what he's talking about, it's David Sirlin.

[Gates]

No Masaru, the article is very relevant to Dissidia. It seems to me (and I'm going to use the terms in Sirlin's article here) that the Best Tactic right now is to use EX Guard into EX Burst and the second best would just be to use EX Guard into a regular attack.

Anyway, I guess the main thing we should take away from the article is that we need to do more testing in tourneys and wait for the game to grow before we can ban a great deal of things.

[Masaru]

Indeed.

....

Wow, I feel.... useful somewhere, for once.

But one thing we can say is that some summons, given the way Dissidia's battle system works, are seemingly rather unfair. But like the article says, we should test and look and study to really determine just what is "unfair". The term alone seems too broad as it is, but maybe that's me.

Yeah, Sirlin balanced HD Remix. I love Street Fighter. Good shit.

EDIT: It just occurred to me to ask this question:

While there are some cases where one can see EX Bursts as plenty unfair, do they really stop us from playing the game? In some cases, yes. But that's assuming that there is no counter against it. We do have a defense bar, however useless it may be. We should study exactly how the bar helps or doesn't help in defense against a Burst. "Increase your defense" indeed. I think we need to find out just what that bar affects or tries to, exactly.

At least, that's what I think.

EDIT II: I quote this paragraph from Sirlin's 'Playing to Win' like I posted before. I think we should focus on this, or at least the concept in general.


The only reasonable case to ban something because it is “too good” is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics. It is possible, though very rare, that removing an element of the game that is not only “the best” but also “ten times better than anything else in the game” results in a better game. I emphasize that is extremely rare. The most common case is that the player requesting the ban doesn’t fully grasp that the game is, in fact, not all about that one tactic. He should win several tournaments using mainly this tactic to prove his point. Another, far rarer possibility is that he’s right. The game really is shallow and centered on one thing (whether that one thing is a bug or by design is irrelevant). In that case, the best course of action is usually to abandon the game and play one of the hundreds of other readily available good games in the world.

[Kraid]

Oh, just for info´s sake and improving on my Bone Mail suggestion:

Force Begets Courage could also help.
Effect:

"Ex Core and Ex Force goes to BRV"




But isn´t that biased?

Emperor wasn't meant to be the only example, but he was one of the best examples. It also stops characters like ExDeath (God Forbid), Kefka and a few others from playing the way they should.

[K´Genesis]

@Masaru: Good shit, indeed. I´m a Street Fighter myself, especially 2 Turbo(HD Remix, for that matter). Most balanced fighting game ever, gotta love that. And I´m always browsing Sirlin´s page for new stuff.

Anyway, what we can apply to Dissidia in this case is that Ex-Bursts are that "break-the-game" factor. We don´t even need championships to prove that. The thousands of replays are enough of an evidence.
And I think it´s safe to assume that, with Ex-Bursts gone, the game WILL improve, as Ex Guards won´t necessarily mean insta-wins and will usually become get-out-of-jail tactics.

About the other stuff, it can be tested through. But we have to make sure everyone is in the same conditions. This means that everyone should have 100% of the game´s stuff, like accs., summons, equips, mastered abilities, etc...
This would provide information on how the game was intended to be played, after all. Characters´ strengths and weaknesses in conjunction with what the game has to offer.

@Kraid: The only unquestionable case here would be Exdeath´s, I concede that. But perhaps we can study the implementation(or not) of the Chaos Judge in free matches, quick tourneys or something like that.

[Masaru]

Even still on the subject of EX Bursts, they aren't all insta-wins. Some of them are quite weak. For example, Holy still sucks, increased damage or not. But that doesn't factor in the decision.

Also, the defense bar is pretty much useless. From what I've gathered under several different conditions, it works like this:


Let's say that damage (its value) is equal to "x"

- When the defense bar is at 0: x = x
- When the bar is at +5: x = (x - 5)
- When the bar is at +10: x = (x -10)
- When the bar is at -5: x = (x + 5)



At least, this is what I can see. For all I know, the numbers on the bar are actually a percentage, but it doesn't seem to be that way.

I mean, this looks right to me; in fact, I just looked in the game again. My conclusion is that this bar is absolutely useless and has no bearing over whether or not you survive an EX Burst.

Also, I agree, Gen. If this was the JP version, I would already have everything, but....

Anyway, another thing we all need to be aware of is ourselves. Human error is notorious for rearing it's ugly head on occasion, no? I can't remember how many times I went from playing single player with my equips on, only to go into a match with a friend a moment later and realize I forgot to switch sets.

[Rey Magnus]

I think the only reason ExBurst is "broken" is because of ExGuard > ExBurst.. If you get hit with ExBurst without it being after ExGuard, that's pretty much your problem of getting hit..

Hell, in other games, supers are always a table turner and that's what they wanted to do with Ultras in SFIV. If you get hit by an Ultra, it's your problem, just like how if you get hit with ExBurst (without ExGuard), it's your problem.

So if you wanna ban something, it should be ExGuard > ExBurst and Accessories..

Also, Chaos rule destroys the turtling style. I have no idea why people are usually like "there is no honour in turtling." It's a playing style, Rushdown is not the only right way. Imagine ExDeath trying to rushdown.

@Gen: Play 3rd Strike. ;D

[Crono]

Although I want to participate in this, I can't. Just wanna share some of my thoughts. If only Dissidia made the EX burst rise from taking damage then I think it's really viable in matches. It's really saddening having to remove such a good mechanic just as Magnus said it's a table turner. I'm voting for the chaos rule though as I don't see problems with it even for the turtle type chars, you just have to whiff some atk (pref safe) so it would reset the timer. It is much harder and unfair for people to chase all day (fingers getting numb) i saw one match where 1 min of the match was spent on chasing, it also makes EX Mode kinda useless coz I can run all day and wait for it to be depleted. It also promotes countering and speeds up the game even more w/c makes the game more exciting/flashier and a crowd pleasing one to boot. Forget snooze and lose, takes too much time to activate and lose only what? 200 brave which you could easily stop esp. when you're far away after doing that speed runs.

[Rey Magnus]

Not every character can whiff out a random attack and expect nothing to happen. If you want that, you have Snooze And Lose.

[K´Genesis]

@Rey: Snooze and Lose is a VERY expensive ability. And I really don´t like 3rd Strike at all. That parrying system just brings chills to my spine. Being forced to play only with 3 characters to have a shot at the competitive scene(with RARE exceptions) or maybe to have fun at all is not my thing either.

[Legna]

For the record, early Smash tournaments DID use items but they were gotten rid of shortly afterward because they were agreed to be unbalanced.

Also, I'm still up for Equips Tourneys but I think they should be like a side event, like low tier tourneys in Marvel.

http://www.destructoid.com/seth-killian-on-evo-smash-bros-and-all-things-capcom-146391.phtml

Yet someone who can't be said inexpert about competitive tournaments said that items should be allowed.

Yet, while in Dissidia I too agree that Equip should be allowed but this is obviously impossible for accessories and summons simple because they are simple badly designed.
Also at least you can escape infinities in MvC2 and while the characters are less balances than Dissidia there is no suck a thing as a win-button like Ex-burst.

[Rey Magnus]

@KG: Well, it's you (as an example) that don't want turtling, so you have to pay the price in order to not let your opponent play the way he wants. Oh yeah, I said 3rd Strike because it's more balanced, and I like the parry system cause it gives characters with no fireballs a good chance. ;D

@Legna: The Smash tournament at Evo 2k9 had no items. Items are luck based, just like the ExCore.

And it's only a win button if you do it after ExGuard. If you get shot from a normal HP attack and then got hit by an ExBurst WITHOUT ExGuard, you really have no one to blame but yourself.

[Kraid]

@Rey: Snooze and Lose is a VERY expensive ability. And I really don´t like 3rd Strike at all. That parrying system just brings chills to my spine. Being forced to play only with 3 characters to have a shot at the competitive scene(with RARE exceptions) or maybe to have fun at all is not my thing either.

Well, if you want to stop turtling and defensive style, use Snooze and Lose. Chaos Rule is just a cheap way of saying "I'm not spending the CP to get Snooze and Lose."

You're trying to remove a PLAYSTYLE. ExDeath and Emperor cannot whiff attacks and expect to NOT GET PUNISHED. Dave MURDERED ME when I whiffed attacks with Emperor. So you expect me to use Chaos Rule, where if I don't attack, I get frozen, but if I do attack, I get punished.

[Legna]

@Legna: The Smash tournament at Evo 2k9 had no items. Items are luck based, just like the ExCore.

And it's only a win button if you do it after ExGuard. If you get shot from a normal HP attack and then got hit by an ExBurst WITHOUT ExGuard, you really have no one to blame but yourself.

"We actually had Brawl on the main stage in 2008 (with items on!)"

I guess someone in wrong here.

And yes, it's a win button in that case but: is it fair ? I mean, it just says: "fill your Ex-bar if your opponent doesn't have a full bar be attacked once to win"

It's not a too cheap things with 2 options:

- The use of Equip to increase the HP.
- Pandemonium there the "extra-brave" added is lower than any other stage.

[Mikeee]

Brawl did NOT have Items at Evo 2K9. The Smash Community had NO CHOICE any year aside from this year. Evo 2k9 was a cooperative effort between Evo and the Allisbrawl community. The smash Community ONLY allows items in ISP because RANDOMLY DROPPED ITEMS add a factor of LUCK to the game. It's really that simple, and anyone who tries to say the Smash Community has ever held a tourney with items on and considered it worth anything is just wrong.

[Rey Magnus]

@Legna: The Smash tournament at Evo 2k9 had no items. Items are luck based, just like the ExCore.


@Legna: The Smash tournament at Evo 2k9 had no items.


Evo 2k9 had no items.


Evo 2k9


"We actually had Brawl on the main stage in 2008 (with items on!)"

You obviously don't know your numbers.

Are Ultras in SFIV fair? I mean, they fill everytime your opponent hits you and it turns the tables around.

[Legna]

You obviously don't know your numbers.

Are Ultras in SFIV fair? I mean, they fill everytime your opponent hits you and it turns the tables around. Hell, Kraid just admitted most of the time he beat me was because of the Ultra Raging Demon. :/



I guess someone in wrong here.


Well I was the wrong one, anyway I was just reporting something I remembered to read but I ignored Evo 2k9, I don't even have Brawl.

And about SFIV, I don't possess it, but are them as easy and cheap as Ex-burst ?

[NeroMD]

I don't know about Ultra's but some characters have a VERY hard time landing Ultra's. Fei Long for example can't combo a standard move with an Ultra. And to top it off Ultra's are Blockable in SF4 While Dissidia you can't block EX bursts.

[Rey Magnus]

Fei Long doesn't need his Ultra because it sucks and he has better options, like his Chickenwing, Flame Kick and even his Focus Attack (Which is the best one in the game).

Most Ultras may be blockable, but they have a lot of easy setups. You can land Rufus', Ryu's and Dhalsim's Ultra from anything. Akuma, Zangief and El Fuerte have unblockable Ultras. Even Kraid will tell you that everytime he doesn't land an Ultra on me with Akuma (and my pad wasn't fucking up), I beat him.

[Kraid]

Even Kraid will tell you that everytime he doesn't land an Ultra on me with Akuma (and my pad wasn't fucking up), I beat him.

I did win some without the ultra........

... but most the time I did use the Ultra. I went from not being able to set it up safely to being able to set it up really well.

[Rey Magnus]

Cause my pad kept doing random Falling Sky instead of C.HP. )=

[Kraid]

This is personally my feelings for what we should do for the first tournament right now:

1. All characters you plan to use at level 100
This one is easy and obvious. Allows for the most optimium match up. In Pokemon, it's pretty much an essential rule.
Plus it doesn't take long to get a character to level 100 really.

2. All Equipment (Except Unused) allowed.
For the first tournament, I suggest we allow equipment. The reason the 'Except Unused' is in there is for people who have Hacked PSPs will not have a huge advantage.

3. Most Accessories allowed.
The reason I put most is because there are a few that, again, Hacked PSP users can use which most others can't. The following are:


HP = 1 (4)
No BRV Damage (3)
Near Opponet (2)
Far from Opponet (3)
After 60 Seconds
After 90 Seconds
After 120 Seconds
After 180 Seconds
Soul of the Destroyer
Soul of the Sovereign
Puppeteer's Wheel
Arcane Incense
Arcane Resin
Valor Resin
Unused


The ones in Bold aren't the same ones you can use in the normal Dissidia. They give bonuses like X4 Modifer, which is insane. The usual (and legitimate one) has only a 1.5X modifer.

The ones in Blue you CAN make and are obtainable without hacking, but because of hacking the game, they're banned for BALANCE issues. Having access to an instant EX-Mode is ridicious and breaks every character in the game, espcially Terra.

Blame PSP Hackers for losing Valor Resin. It's the same as Soul of the Destroyer, except it has 100% chance to break. PSP Hackers essentially have access to Soul of the Destroyer if Valor Resin is allowed.

Unused are unused, so therefore cannot be obtained except by hacking.

4. Summons Allowed
While I'm againest alot of summons, being the first tournament, we can determine then which summons are completely Over Powered.

5. ExBurst ANd EXGuard is allowed, but NOT EX-Guard -> Ex-Burst.
Despite the arguments, and being one of the people who want EXBursts banned, it IS our first tournament. If ExBursts are the major factoring thing in the tournament, it can be discussed about for the next tournament. Ex-Bursts may be OP, and Ex-Guard is a nice "Get off me.", but combine the two and you get a stall fest beyond belief.

6. No Judgments
Since we're unrestricting Gameplay, there will be no Judgments. Judgments restrict Gameplay and stops some people playing how characters should be played.

7. All Abilities allowed EXCEPT EXP to X
Yes, you can use Snooze and Lose (Which in my opinion isn't Overpowered.)
Because of Special Day and Calender bonuses, EXP to X abiltlies are banned. (This may change if we all set a day of the week to play, and we all chose THAT day to play. But that'd slow down the tournament by miles.)

8. No Infinates
I don't care if MVC2 allows infinates or Brawl. But in both games you need to pull the infinate THREE TIMES at most to win. In Dissidia, you only need the one to win. (Five times if you want to picky about MVC2. Dissidia hasn't got/doesn't need resets and takes less skill to infinate with also.)

9. Stage Select = Random, no stages banned
This one can be debated. But I think this is the simplest one.

10. No Chaos or Shinryuu
While Hacked PSP owners can play Chaos or Shinryuu, they can only be played by outside means. In the US version, you CAN save Replays againest a human controlled Chaos. Eitherway it's a huge disadvantage to those who do not have hacked PSPs.

11. Soft Bans
While I might be using the term wrong, If both players agree to ban all Summons, then you can ban all summons. But the above rules are all DEFAULT. If neither player agrees, then default rule applies. (This applies to Stage selection, Summons, Equipment, Accessories, Ex-Bursts, EXP to X, Judgments.)

And hey, if it turns out the majority chose to ban Ex-Bursts and have no equipment, we can make THAT default instead.

In my opinion (and Rey's), it's a better idea to test everything first, then start banning stuff. As Rey told me:


Nothing wrong with banning tactics
It has been done in a lot of 3D fighters
including SC I believe, but the most noteable is Virtua Fighter

It's best to see WHAT causes damages first.We know Japanese tournaments EX-Bursts were allowed and they slew people. Infinates have already been tested, and proven that any character with an infinate wins Tournaments (See GameFAQs Tournament-A.)

[Rey Magnus]

That's how first tournament should be. Doing no Burst and THEN testing a tournament WITH Burst, is really a shit idea.

[Gates]

Kraid, why don't you just say "All hax are banned?" It seems like most of your ruleset seems to be centered around that anyway.

[Kraid]

Kraid, why don't you just say "All hax are banned?" It seems like most of your ruleset seems to be centered around that anyway.

Alot of people won't understand which items are hacked. Like the HP = 1 (4). Espcially since I know some people have downloaded savefiles from GameFAQs, which I'm sure have the hacked items in.

Likewise There were three Items I removed for balance sake, aswell as adding what should be and shouldn't be allowed. Hence I removed the Judgements, for example.

If I gave you my file, would you know which items of mine are hacked or not? So I made a list. Which is important.

Each of those rules also address a seperate issue: If the later tournaments want to change rules, they can use my set of rules as a template.

ONLY Three of my rules also deal with hacked items.

[NeroMD]

The issue is right now no one has good equipment yet. It would have to wait a little longer.

[Kraid]

The issue is right now no one has good equipment yet. It would have to wait a little longer.

Banning everything first, then testing stuff out later is not a good idea. However if you're adamant about this, then my rule set could be used for Equipment tournaments later.

But I honestly feel we should play THIS ruleset first. Then discuss what's banned and what's not.

[NeroMD]

Banning everything first, then testing stuff out later is not a good idea. However if you're adamant about this, then my rule set could be used for Equipment tournaments later.

But I honestly feel we should play THIS ruleset first. Then discuss what's banned and what's not.

I'm all for it. But think of this tourney as a ..Practice tourney really or a tourney to pass time.

Like i've mentioned before I'm willing to try out all sorts of things. We can definatly do the settings you gave us after that.

[Rey Magnus]

Have the tests BEFORE the tournament.. Otherwise of course it'll look more gay no matter what you do. If you have a problem with ExGuard > ExBurst, You CAN ban that tactic. They banned running away in Virtua Fighter, so there's nothing wrong with banning single tactics.

You proved ExGuard > ExBurst is gay, but what about ExBurst individually?

[NeroMD]

Have the tests BEFORE the tournament.. Otherwise of course it'll look more gay no matter what you do. If you have a problem with ExGuard > ExBurst, You CAN ban that tactic. They banned running away in Virtua Fighter, so there's nothing wrong with banning single tactics.

You proved ExGuard > ExBurst is gay, but what about ExBurst individually?

Personally, I don't mind EX Bursts with equipment, because you'll be able to survive multiple bursts if you equip yourself properly with good accessories.

I used to use a setup in the JP version where i regened for 800 HP. and once my HP got maxed it went over to BRV.

[Rey Magnus]

I suggest doing some tests about ExBurst without ExGuarding.

[NeroMD]

I suggest doing some tests about ExBurst without ExGuarding.


The only issues i see is things like Golbez, Chaos stage + Genesis Rocks = Bad news for ANY player. because it's so damn small. Pandomonium stage is one of them too. He can just use Cosmic ray trough the wall. =/ There are other issues aswell though but that's one of the things that bothered me.

[Rey Magnus]

Well, players usually agree on a stage before starting.

[Noir]

Just to clarify, you have to back off when EX Guarding instead of taking the free attack, right?

[Gates]

Do you literally have to move away or can you just wait until the other player is out of hitstun?

[Slinky_Slink]

I just wanted to ask if we were actually going through with the chaos rule implementation, because I'm just voting against it.

I'd also like to bring up banning snooze and lose because it essentially acts just like chaos rule (the defense punishing part of it) and can affect the outcome of a game just as much as chaos rule.

[Gates]

idk about Snooze and Lose, but Chaos Judgment definitely punishes the defensive players too much. Losing a little brave isn't that bad compared to getting paralyzed and potentially losing the game.

It also paralyzes you for a ridiculously long time too. When I've played as Emperor and my opponents get paralyzed by Chaos Judgment, I often have enough time to cast Starfall. FUCKING STARFALL! With a 9 second charge time!

I think we should have a way to prevent overly defensive players and regulate stalling but Chaos Judgment is just too much.