Dragon's Neck Coliseum Ruleset Discussion

[Wedge]

THE RULESET ON THIS THREAD IS OUTDATED. PLEASE REFER TO THE SIGN UP THREAD FOR THE MOST UPDATED DNC RULESET
http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4591


I present to you the current ruleset for Dragon's Neck Coliseum: XLink Kai's 2nd Dissidia Tournament hosted by Dissidia Forums.

This thread is being created to discuss a few key points in the ruleset and possible additions before sign ups are posted.

WARNING!
Let me warn all that if anyone spams, flames, trolls or attacks this thread or other members, will be dealt with accordingly.
Random claims of loopholes, imbalances ect need to be backed with HARD EVIDENCE. No more theory talk kids. Personal experience backed by videos is what is needed.

Dragon's Neck Coliseum was created in an attempt to include gear and customization in a tournament setting. We wanted to try and make player skill a huge part of the competition but also add another layer of skill which is the preparations of your equipment and accessories and how they complement your character. However there are several loopholes in basic gear matches that create One-Hit-Kills and perpetual EX build and several other tricks. The players who have assisted in this ruleset's creation have strived to eliminate these broken builds and bring other options and strategies to light so that customization is no longer bland, but full of variety and options.

Dragon's Neck Coliseum XLink Kai (DNC)
Dates: TBA

[Tournament Format]
-Double Elimination
-Rounds are best of 3
-Finals are best of 5

=Round Set Procedure:
1. Opponents select their character from their team of 3 that they registered the tournament with.* Updated
2. Opponents start the stage striking procedure (The first stage of each match is predetermined randomly
from all the non-Omega stages)
3. Each player may announce one stage to be banned for counterpicks of the set
4. The first game is played, using the stage chosen during step 2
5. The loser of the previous match announces the next stage
6. The winner of the previous match picks their character**
7. The loser of the previous match chooses their character**
8. Repeat steps 5-7 for all proceeding matches
*Registration requires entrants to choose three characters that they will be restricted to using during the tournament. Updated
** Equipment, Abilities, and Accessories may be altered at anytime

Rules and Restrictions
Gameplay
-Ex Counter is not allowed
-All "Omega" Stages are banned
-Deific Judgments are banned
-Any form of "cheating" (CWcheats ect) is not allowed
-Infinites are not allowed
-EX Bursts are restricted to 1 per fight
-All Summons are not allowed

Abilities
The following are not allowed:
-Exp to EX Force
-Exp to Bravery
-Exp to HP

Equipment
The following are not allowed:
-Artifacts with the "Land Profiteer" ability
-Any hacked equipment (Chaos Equips, Unused ect..)

Accessory limits
Multiplier cap of 5.0 Multipliers at no point should go above this number during a fight.
+4 ATK Restriction Players are not allowed to have more than 4 points of ATK added to their accessories. (Adepts are exempt from this rule)

=Basic Accessories
The following are not allowed:
-Smiting Soul
-Mindbreak
-Mindcrush
-Safety Bit
-Safety Ring

=Booster Accessories (Multiplier Cap of 5.0)
The following are not allowed:
-All hacked Booster accessories

=Special Accessories
The following are not allowed:
-Vengeful Soul
-Rebellious Soul
-All breakable accessories except for Patience Incense
-All hacked Special accessories

I'd like to personally thank these players for assisting me in creating, testing and/or critiquing the ruleset:
-Judah01 - Co-Creator and generally awesome guy.
-ShinethatLight
-Funkyman02
-Kraid

Main Topics to Discuss
-Loopholes and Flaws!!

[Suppi]

Pretty solid. Looks somewhat like the last equipment based tourney *was it shadow strike*?
As for Omega Map settings; FFIX Omega seems to be pretty tame... minus the whole breakable map thing it seems pretty lenient for break.
(I like how you got rid of Brv to map destruction thing. The build was too cheap imo ^^)
Character limit should be limited to 5 imo. *best out of 3 double elimination - max amount of 5 matches*
5 would be able to set a team of counter picks before hand and let you set battle plans against people.
----
that's my 2 cents on the matter. Shame I don't have Xlink to join this :3

[RDFMASTER]

Well finally good equip tourney ruleset ;)

I don't like to write to much or enter to discussion about threads like this but i have two important question:

1.What is a blind character?
2.Do players have the rights to agree in using specific stage to play?

Thanks for taking your time and i will like to know these question. I am fine with the rest of the rules.

I will put this rule-set as D.N.C ;) is easier for me to write it

Cool Name BTW :)

[icyie04]

I can't really see anything bad about this ruleset yet. Maybe except for the fact that its gonna be Artifact-dependent.

[Wedge]

Pretty solid. Looks somewhat like the last equipment based tourney *was it shadow strike*?
As for Omega Map settings; FFIX Omega seems to be pretty tame... minus the whole breakable map thing it seems pretty lenient for break.
(I like how you got rid of Brv to map destruction thing. The build was too cheap imo ^^)
Character limit should be limited to 5 imo. *best out of 3 double elimination - max amount of 5 matches*
5 would be able to set a team of counter picks before hand and let you set battle plans against people.
----
that's my 2 cents on the matter. Shame I don't have Xlink to join this :3

No other equipment tournament before this one has implemented and restricted so much. The only one that comes close is Ninja's Playground.

Judah and I decided against all Omega stages for there to be a consistent brave pool. I do like a good portion of these stages and I find them not to be overpowered myself but I wanted to try eliminating the "Omega Factor" and see how it fairs.

The banning of several accessories and placing a multiplier cap was to prevent any build which heavily removed gameplay skill and/or created One-hit-kill builds. These certain builds (among others) caused us ban the certain things we did in order to bring balance and variety:
-Stage Destruction
-Super Force Absorption EX
-ATK+
-Near Death
-High Multiplier builds
Some of these builds are still possible to be used but to much lesser extents.

I do like the idea of a Character Limit because we are implementing a "blind character choice" and a 3-5 limit sounds appealing.


Shame I don't have Xlink to join this :3
Well get XLINK KAI! Its only $20 for an adapter to play. And also its not like no one in the future is going to do another gear tournament on AHP.

[Wedge]

I can't really see anything bad about this ruleset yet. Maybe except for the fact that its gonna be Artifact-dependent.

Artifacts are great at what they do and that is give options to players and their builds. Artifacts nowadays are also very easy to obtain and most players who play gear have a set of artifacts. Also there are quite a good amount of viable non-artifact gear use such as:
-Most Exclusives
-Genji
-Lufenian
-Heaven's Cloud
-Earthbreaker
-Cleaver
-Machines

Even without Artifacts you'd essentially be limited to those above equips. Including artifacts adds a lot of depth.

[icyie04]

I said maybe though. Haven't played enough gear battles with artifacts yet to see. xD

[Rei-N]

As promised Wedge, here it is. You and your Dis-si-dia! banned, limited, and semi-limited list fit this so well.

DAMN YOU KAIIBAAAAAAAAAAA~!!!!

YouTube- Yu-Gi-Oh-Damn Right It's Better Than Yours (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGg5w5Mpr6s)

On a serious note, while the blind choice is nice; it's not going to last in a long run. Once the players figure out who's who, it's all a matter of counterpicking and less on the actual fighting. If what you were going for is not only player battle tactics, but strategic placement outside of the killzone...then it works. Just my two cents from a glance.

[judah01]

So glad we finally got this rule set polished off enough to get some public opinion on it. :)

It seems the biggest problem we have at the moment is whether to limit EX Bursts. Keep in mind a couple of things about this:

-You have to get to full EX (harder to do without summons for boosters and the multiplier limit).
-You have to hit with an HP attack.
-You have to contend with Despair Shock.
-You can get EX Guarded.
-You can get camped out of EX mode.
-You may fight someone with a defensive build.
-Your opponent keeps whatever bonus defense they land on for the Burst defense (0, +5, +10, -5) for the rest of the round.

(I'm sure there are more factors but you get the gist.)

We are afraid if we allow multiple bursts that it will make EX builds much more viable than other builds. But it seems like we've already placed so many limitations on EX Mode (like removed EX counters) that it may not be an issue. Although EX guards themselves and the crit rate EX mode provides is quite nice.

The other issue, while it seems minor, is accidental bursting. Characters like Garland (taking advantage of no hitstun during attacks), Cloud of Darkness (chaining HP attacks), Emperor (throwing out another flare with one already out) and Kefka (spamming Trine). It would be a shame for people that play these characters to get disqualified for a simple mistake. It would also be a shame if people took advantage of the burst ban to give themselves a free "do-over" if they are losing a match by using a burst on purpose.

My opinion on the matter is if it's too easy to just burst people to death, then a limitation of 1 EX Burst per round isn't bad. EX Bursts are supposed to be the characters ultimate move, and it cheapens it to see it done 5 times in a round.

But of course I'm more worried about game balance. With all the limitations and counter-builds considered, is multiple bursts an issue?

As for the Character limit, I think a more strict limit of 3 would add more strategy to the counter picking process (which is one of my favorite things about the rule-set). This would make people choose characters they are most confident with, and not have characters on their team just for the sake of counter-picking. If you notice, the stage/character counter-picking process is quite open ended. This is to prevent any one-sided matches from occurring, while still allowing a great element of strategy in the matches.

(On a random note, the character limit reminds me of having to manage your party composition in a traditional RPG. :P)

I'm rambling now and forgot my original point, but please, test this rule-set out and let us know what you like/dislike.

Let's DNC!

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/6/6d/YO_GABBA_BUSEY.gif

[pheano]

so the basic concept is that this is like the get salty and kaos rules combined but with summons and some accessories banned

[judah01]

so the basic concept is that this is like the get salty and kaos rules combined but with summons and some accessories banned

That's kinda like saying it's a mix of No Gear and All Gear with some restrictions. :P

We've actually had this rule set in the works since a quite a bit before both of the tournaments you mentioned. The restrictions we have put in place have come from months of testing and experience first hand. But I'd be lying if I said the recent tournament data didn't help us come to some of the conclusions we have.

Like Wedge said, we are trying to establish a rule set that calls on the player to prepare themselves before battle with an equipment build and stage selection/character counter picking that compliments their character or counters their opponent, while eliminating overpowered builds, random factors and "cheap" tactics. The key word here is customization. Look deeper and you'll see there are more differences than that. :)

[Hella-Bright]

I may join this tourney, but haveing 1 character that can use full equips makes it alot easier for people to counter pick. :C

[Wedge]

As promised Wedge, here it is. You and your Dis-si-dia! banned, limited, and semi-limited list fit this so well.

DAMN YOU KAIIBAAAAAAAAAAA~!!!!

On a serious note, while the blind choice is nice; it's not going to last in a long run. Once the players figure out who's who, it's all a matter of counterpicking and less on the actual fighting. If what you were going for is not only player battle tactics, but strategic placement outside of the killzone...then it works. Just my two cents from a glance.

Thanks Rei, I appreciate the input and you make a point. The only reason I wanted to try a blind process was to prevent the "character picking dance" at the selection screen in M1 of a fight. And yes predicting your opponents character choice can be pretty easy. Maybe I'm making too big a deal with the M1 character selection and dropping the blind process may be a good idea... Plus blind management can get annoying.

On a more serious note:
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o253/IronBreadCrumb/Trap_card.jpg

[Armoxus]

I would consider this tournament if I ever got Xlink Kai working. Idk, I might. consider trying to give it a go again.

[Wedge]

I would consider this tournament if I ever got Xlink Kai working. Idk, I might. consider trying to give it a go again.

*Obligatory grunt to set up XLink Kai*
Remember there are members here and on the XLink Kai forums as well to troubleshoot as well as guides. Plus you can always uninstall everything and start from scratch. :D


I may join this tourney, but haveing 1 character that can use full equips makes it alot easier for people to counter pick. :C

If gear is an issue HB, there are game saves you can easily download to give you everything you need sans artifacts which you have XLink Kai buddies who have those. If anything I'll probably put up a game save with a few standard artifacts.

[Hella-Bright]

If gear is an issue HB, there are game saves you can easily download to give you everything you need sans artifacts which you have XLink Kai buddies who have those. If anything I'll probably put up a game save with a few standard artifacts.
I don't want a game save, game saves are for the lazy gamer who doesn't want to take the time, not that I want to offend anyone who uses a game save but I would rather get shit on my own. And besides I don't have enough room for another Dissidia on my tiny Memory stick. All I need is atleast 10 rosetta stones and BOOM I can use like 4 more characters. As for artifacts, sure I could probably get them all from RDF or something. But I am not very skilled with erquipment so this tourney kinda just puts me off a little bit, for that fact.

[Colonel-Gilgamesh]

More of a question than everything else: How limited has EX Build been? Limiting to a 6x Multiplier is probably damaging it, but I'm also assuming that a game-changing build is still probably with 2 EX Death, 1 EX Bane, and Heaven's Cloud Artifacts, And as many EX accessories you can tack on with the 6x multiplier. Again, I'm not making a claim, I'm just wondering exactly how limited it is.

[Wedge]

More of a question than everything else: How limited has EX Build been? Limiting to a 6x Multiplier is probably damaging it, but I'm also assuming that a game-changing build is still probably with 2 EX Death, 1 EX Bane, and Heaven's Cloud Artifacts, And as many EX accessories you can tack on with the 6x multiplier. Again, I'm not making a claim, I'm just wondering exactly how limited it is.

With Summons banned, the main multipliers, Summon used/unused and Opp Summon used/unused are useless now and now players have to think a bit harder on their multiplier choice. Maintaining a constant multiplier becomes much more difficult, most of the time you'll see people only going as high as 3.3-4.0ish. EX force builds were indeed the most dangerous. Equipment adds a pretty decent rate of force absorbtion, but definitely not as much as accessories.

The most you could do on Equipment would be 2 EX Seeker, and a Heaven's Cloud/Cleaver. That gives you 40-70% FA and 4-8m. Accessories can easily grant 150% FA and 15+m. Meters aren't so important once you have around 6+m so dedicating all to FA is the problem. But yes I do think lowering the multiplier cap to 5.0 might be more manageable and more controlled which I plan to test and post videos up for it.

Currently I think the main thing people find that the major turn off of gear sets are is the whole idea of "Super EX" builds. The goal of this ruleset is to change that and create other options. Make it so that getting to EX asap isn't the optimal choice.

Personally I find that allowing bursts perpetuates this idea. Why should I do an ATK and DEF build when I can just get to EX, crit 100% of the time and burst? This is why I have the discussion open. Whats the opinions and findings on bursts in this ruleset?


I don't want a game save, game saves are for the lazy gamer who doesn't want to take the time, not that I want to offend anyone who uses a game save but I would rather get shit on my own. And besides I don't have enough room for another Dissidia on my tiny Memory stick. All I need is atleast 10 rosetta stones and BOOM I can use like 4 more characters. As for artifacts, sure I could probably get them all from RDF or something. But I am not very skilled with erquipment so this tourney kinda just puts me off a little bit, for that fact.

This isn't about "video game ethics" HB, this is about a tournament which allows certain parameters outside of the norm. Some players like yourself don't have all the equipment in the game to be able to fight, which is why providing a save just to use in the tournament is fine. If you want to get your equipment the hard way then fine. Do it and don't complain. I've gotten everything for my game save the hard way as well (including my artifacts) but if I can allow others to partake in a tournament I'm not going to deny them that. Hence the game save. If you're put off by the idea of an equips tournament then read guides, watch videos, or just plain practice (which everyone should if you enter a tournament.) If you still don't like it, sorry if I sound brash, then don't enter. Simple as that.

[Colonel-Gilgamesh]

WARNING! LIMITED BACKING INVOLVED! NOT TO BE TAKEN TO SERIOUSLY UNLESS YOU WANT TO TEST IT YOURSELF!

From what I've seen in KAoS, EX Bursts still decide games. With no Omega stages, their strength has minimized, but the problem is that most stages still nearly crack 4000. 4000+EX Burst Damage+ Attack that initiated it usually means GGs. And we can't really MINIMIZE the damage Bursts do either. I can only think of the following suggestions for EX Bursting.

AGAIN, THESE HAVE NO BACKING AND ARE MERELY SUGGESTION!

-EX Bursts cannot be used until half of the EX Bar is gone. This would help reduce 'I've got him in Octaslash! Now I'll EX Burst immediatly for GGs'. Making EX Burst less reliable and on a strict time limit could reduce it's power

-Putting a damage limit on the attack that initiated EX Burst

-Putting a health limit on the opponent (Can't use EXB if opponent has 3000 or less health or something like that)

-Only allowed if it won't beak opponent.

[Rei-N]

^ not bad suggestions Colonel, but you have to understan from a TO's point of view that enforcing all those rules would not only be absurdly difficult and tedious; but opens up major points for arguments and conflict. Also, EX bursts CAN decide the game in KAoS; if poor BRV and HP management takes place. Unlike 6999, it doesn't do ridiculous damage to the DEF ratio and serves as a one time grenade that can either clinch a victory or save your ass from the fire. General rule of thumb is to have at least 1.2k BRV to survive an EX burst.

- You cannot seriously enforce a 50% bar rule in an actual tournament match. That is clearly up to player perception and how easy it would be for an argument about "OH! I did it right after I had 49.99% bar left!" You can't tell'em they're lying, since you yourself do not have an in-game measurement of the gauge other than the visuals. As unlikely as it would happen, you cannot leave such open spots in a tournament rule line-up.
- Again, damage limit would be hard to enforce too. NOt only will you need to provide solid backing for your claims as to WHY a character has to wait till at a certain point before bursting, but it still won't stop or hinder certain characters. Can't burst past 999 BRV? Zidane has no qualms letting himself take a few stabs then quickly SA to Meo for a burst.
- The health limit would be the best option, but again, you need justifications as to when is the most advantageous point to place the cap. Simply sticking one on is foolhardy and childish. It still could impose more rules to bear in mind for the players and an increased chances of accidental rule-breaks. You do NOT want that, as that becomes a quick excuse and you really have no way of effectively proving so since this is an online tournament. Besides, having player watchers for cheaters is one of the lamest ideas in tournament history and been proven to not be worth it at ALL.
- This is way too prone for accidents, especially since the better EXB users will gauge the opponent's BRV for a break during the actual attack.

EXB, while I admit is too easy for free damage, adds more of a bite to the characters and forces new tactics. In KAoS and from what it seems in DNC, the base damage for bursts will not alter all that much. It's up to the players to bear in mind that once the EX bar is full; there's a load of options that can and probably will come out.

[ujhbn]

Equipment
The following are not allowed:
-Artifacts with the "Land Profiteer" ability
I think you may want to ban the Artifact "Brave Master" too? It also has the "Brv Boost when stage elements destroyed" effect. Sorry that I dun have it in the US version so I can't check what's the +% on it. It was +10% in the JP version.

[Colonel-Gilgamesh]

Hmmm....how about restricting entering EX Mode if you are hitting your opponent or he is staggering? It would also cut down on 'I have you now' EX Bursts

[judah01]

EXB, while I admit is too easy for free damage, adds more of a bite to the characters and forces new tactics. In KAoS and from what it seems in DNC, the base damage for bursts will not alter all that much. It's up to the players to bear in mind that once the EX bar is full; there's a load of options that can and probably will come out.

I agree with this statement. This makes me lean more for no limit on the EX Bursts, which is really the debate. In my head, and from limited recent exp, I find that after an HP attack is landed, it's hard to keep a high multiplier without summon unused, so hopefully it won't be abused. But I also have no problem with 1 burst limit.



I think you may want to ban the Artifact "Brave Master" too? It also has the "Brv Boost when stage elements destroyed" effect. Sorry that I dun have it in the US version so I can't check what's the +% on it. It was +10% in the JP version.

For Master of Bravery it's 5% per piece. Land Profiteer is 10%. With the stage striking procedure (World of Darkenss is the worst), it would be hard for anyone to really take advantage of the boost, which isn't too big. Plus, the rest of the abilities on Mastery of Brave are awesome and a great suppliment to builds, and it would be a shame to get rid of them... But we do see where the stage bravery gain could pose a problem.

Thanks for the input so far guys!

[Demitel]

I thought you'd mentioned at one point, Wedge, that you would allow one summon, Ultros, due to the Summon Used/Unused booster accessories. Did this idea get thrown out? I imagine even if someone chose to equip one other than Ultros, using it would result in instant disqualification anyway, so I doubt there's much harm there.

[Spyder]

I must say. This ruleset looks extremely appealing. I'm liking where this is heading. Hopefully it'll show the players the good side of equip battles.

[ShineThatLight]

Honestly, this is so much fun to play in, and most likely my favorite way to play equips. Too bad no one really knows the rules yet, and they are quite lengthy to explain XD otherwise i think they would see more use. I love how you and Judah are trying to make more than ExBuilds viable. It is refreshing to see, considering how much i love other builds. Having to work for the multipliers is also amazing, without summons people will actually have to think about their builds.

Edit: Also, considering one ExBurst may be allowed, this gives a subtle wink at Def+ builds in which they will be more efficient when they can't be outclassed by Atk+ or crazy EX.

[Wedge]

Thanks Shine and Spyder. I appreciate the enthusiasm. If you have an things you don't like or find problems with let me know. I'm not sure how well Defensive builds will fair but I'll be testing with those shortly (If everyone stops playing FFXIII that is :P)

Shine get your ass on AHP.

[RDFMASTER]

Thanks Shine and Spyder. I appreciate the enthusiasm. If you have an things you don't like or find problems with let me know. I'm not sure how well Defensive builds will fair but I'll be testing with those shortly (If everyone stops playing FFXIII that is :P)

Shine get your ass on AHP.

I will let you know the MOST OF THE defensive accessorizes are not too great :(

Defense of 196 is easily counter with 184 of attack.

Why they did not add something that counter damages :( with the same %

[funkyman02]

Well maybe a nice medium for the Ex Burst issue would be the "slight Burst." Wedge, what do you think? I know I said I was strictly against bursts before but those few characters that can benefit from it the most like Gappy or Squall if they get their crash makes burst very useful since that single HP can take ages to land. However there is most definitely the issue of some characters doing more damage than others with their initial burst animations (like Cloud) but with the limitations of damage (since ATK builds cannot be used), I see it as a means to get that 1 Hp gone and not to be used to get the brave pool.

the only character that I see this being broken for is Shantotto so I will ask Judah to refrain from commenting on this issue.... Bloody bastard. :P

[SilvaKairi]

hmmm i like this ^^

[Wedge]

I think you may want to ban the Artifact "Brave Master" too? It also has the "Brv Boost when stage elements destroyed" effect. Sorry that I dun have it in the US version so I can't check what's the +% on it. It was +10% in the JP version.

Master of Bravery has a 5% stage bravery boost IIRC. The gain from it is very negligable so its not necessary to ban it.


I thought you'd mentioned at one point, Wedge, that you would allow one summon, Ultros, due to the Summon Used/Unused booster accessories. Did this idea get thrown out? I imagine even if someone chose to equip one other than Ultros, using it would result in instant disqualification anyway, so I doubt there's much harm there.

Yes Dem, Ultros only was an initial idea in the first drafts of this ruleset, but getting rid of Summons all together really helped out in terms or balancing equips. We are prohibiting Summons from being equipped as well becasue it removes the easiest multipliers: Summon Used/Unused. These multipliers makes it extremely easy for abuse and perpetual/fast EX builds. Removing them all together makes players have to think about their multipliers and how to keep them consistant.

[funkyman02]

Wedge ignored me.

[rshadowkirby]

i LOVE this ruleset
which is something i never thought i would say to any ruleset

but seriously I LIKE

can we just get rid of summon unused multiplyers but keep ultros

ultros is lulz worthy

[Wedge]

Wedge ignored me.

Funkimus Prime, don't think that way my friend! :(
I was going to comment on the partial burst in detail after I try it with various different characters. Plus I'm in the middle of working so I can't exactly give a good reply quite yet.

I think giving the partial burst a serious try and documenting the damage each one does could be worth looking into. If the numbers between peoples burst aren't too drastic we could allow multiple bursts if that were the case.

But again need to testzorz.

[SilvaKairi]

umm heres a thought, hows about , you can only use your ex burst after you have filled the exbar 3 times?

[Wedge]

................Ok well it appears with the whole Kaos craze thats going about, this discussion, has well for the most part, been ignored. :/

Even though this ruleset is going to be used in a XLink Kai Tournament, this ruleset is also an attempt to create a balanced, competitive gear ruleset for BOTH AHP and XLink Kai. I hope that the work Judah and I put into this set can someday see the light of AHP tpurnament play or inspire others to use/change this ruleset for the sake of balance and such and be implemented in the future.

I implore all those on AHP and Kai to try the ruleset out, and bring criticisms and praises to us so that we can address these issues so there can be an alternative ruleset besides Kaos.

[judah01]

this ruleset is also an attempt to create a balanced, competitive gear ruleset for BOTH AHP and XLink Kai.


I implore all those on AHP and Kai to try the ruleset out, and bring criticisms and praises to us so that we can address these issues so there can be an alternative ruleset besides Kaos.


Yes, thank you for stressing these points, comrade. If anyone is interested in testing the rule set and equipment builds, just send me a PM or Message me on PSN. My PSN ID is in my sig. I have Xlink and AHP, and also a lot of free time at the moment so feel free to buzz me.

[ShineThatLight]

Well honestly i don't know how much can be improved :O you guys put a lot of work into this and it shows. My one and only concern is that you gimped some builds too much with hard to maintain multipliers. It isn't TOO bad but should be tested more, but hell. I like the idea of having to actually WORK for the multipliers. This also tends to push the favor more into OHKO play styles since the "easier" multipliers are of that sort.

EDIT: nevermind about gimping the builds, honestly they are fine, they just take more commitment to pull off.

[Spyder]

I got to play around with this ruleset over this weekend, and I must say that I overall enjoyed it. The only exception I made when playing under these rules is that I never used bursts (just a personal preference) and I was too lazy to quit the match on omega stages--so it was random stage for me.

At first I thought that I won't like the multiplier limit, but for the few battles I got to try this with Advent-EVA, I noticed very little difference when it came to competing for ex forces. The both of us had very similar builds. We pushed for the highest multiplier we can muster (around 5.7~) combined with an ex absorption and depletion builds.

This is what I want to get to; when trying to compete with gathering ex forces, the competition felt the same as when both of us would have much higher multipliers. In fact even with a constant multiplier of around 4x we were able to stay in exmode for as long as when both of us had very high multipliers in the past. Ex depletion felt almost the same, as well. Though it was difficult to completely drain the entire ex gauge in one attack, it would still be well over 50% of drain. So with the addition of wall rush, the ex depletion felt that it hurt just as much as it does under regular rules.

Now I've only got to try this out with a limited amount of battles, so this is the only accessory set I tried. And what I have noticed particularly about the ex set is that it feels just about the same as the ex set with high multipliers. Because all in all, if you are limited with a 6x multiplier, so is your opponent.

Now one thing that felt entirely different was the absence of summons. At first I was thinking, "well shit. No more Demon's Wall for me," but then I quickly realized that the same goes for my opponent. In fact, having no summon in battles felt like a huge part of luck has been eliminated from battle. Even though I couldn't rely on a summon to get me out of a nasty situation, at least I knew that my opponent couldn't pull a deus ex machina and steal the victory under my nose.

Overall, I'm really liking this set. I'll try seeing how other builds do. If you guys need help in testing, I'm game. So don't hesitate to send me a PM. I, too, want an ad hoc tournament with a ruleset similar to this. Keep up the good work guys.

[Wedge]

Wow Spyder, one of the best feedbacks we've gotten so far. I have to admit the EX cap doesn't really hinder players too much, more like force them to think how to use their multipliers. Personally I wouldn't mind lowering the cap/tweaking any other factors around.

Hopefully we can be able to test things then Spyder :) for the next few days on AHP, I'll be playing under DNC rules in randoms/friendlies to mess with the factors. I encourage all others to do the same!

[Hella-Bright]

If I'm going to be in this I have to read the rules more closely.

My CoD is all good for this, I just need to turn off "EXP to EX force" and figure out another multiplyer that isn't "After Summon" Hmm...

And then I'll need help with my other characters...

[Amphoric]

Question about this area:

5. The loser of the previous match announces the next stage
6. The winner of the previous match picks their character**
7. The loser of the previous match chooses their character**

Just wondering if the Loser has choice of the Map And Counterpick Char? :S? Or I'm probably missing something here or didnt read the whole rules properly >.<.

If so pretty much the first player that wins the first match probably has a 75% of taking the last match since counterpick and map choice :S?

just my 2 cents >.<

[judah01]

Check the first page for updated ruleset.


Question about this area:

5. The loser of the previous match announces the next stage
6. The winner of the previous match picks their character**
7. The loser of the previous match chooses their character**

Just wondering if the Loser has choice of the Map And Counterpick Char? :S? Or I'm probably missing something here or didnt read the whole rules properly >.<.

If so pretty much the first player that wins the first match probably has a 75% of taking the last match since counterpick and map choice :S?

just my 2 cents >.<

Thank you for bringing this issue forward, Beynd. Counterpicking is something we have been trying to hone down since the beginning, since I personally didn't like the idea of giving the advantage, essentially, to whoever won round 1.

So we decided to impose a character limit. With this, we won't necessarily need to require entrants to choose a blind character for round one. You just go into round one knowing potentially what your opponent can throw at you. After that the counter picking procedure runs as listed. Loser picks stage. Then, with this in mind the winner can change characters, abilities, and equipment builds to counter the opponents possible 3 counterpick characters and stage choice. Then the loser picks their character.

Keep in mind that most of the time, the winner is required to keep their character and equipment and abilities. I found this a bit too restrictive. Also, each player is allowed to choose one stage to strike from the counterpicking process. (I wanted to include Dave's Stupid Rule (http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Dave%27s_Stupid_Rule), but Wedge was against the idea. What do you think?)

I may be missing something so I'll edit it in when I get a minute (taking care of my niece at the mo'). Thanks again, Beynd, for bringing this to our attention!

Edit: Remember to feel free to voice your opinions on any of the changes or issues I've talked about here (such as the character limit and counterpicking process). The feedback is quite valuable, and nothing is set in stone.

[ShineThatLight]

Mind saying why Wedge was against Dave's Stupid Rule? I like the idea.

[SilvaKairi]

:( Wedge ignored my idea :( im sad now

[judah01]

Mind saying why Wedge was against Dave's Stupid Rule? I like the idea.

Heh, it was a somewhat legitimate concern, but we've squashed it and are now heavily considering including this rule. It seems that in this game, stage selection has a much bigger impact on the outcome of battle, and some characters do considerably better/worse in some stages. Hopefully this adds more depth to the strategy aspect and helps protect people from getting counterpicked too heavily.

Note that if we do include this rule, we will include all aspects of the rule. Check out the details here: http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Dave%27s_Stupid_Rule


:( Wedge ignored my idea :( im sad now

Not ignored :o, it's just that we've pretty much settled on a 1 EX Burst per match limit. I did have a random idea to allow a stock of 2-3 Bursts per round that you could use at anytime.

But again, please let us know what you think. And thanks again for the input so far!

[Hollowed]

I figure you're allowing Bursts to change the way HP linkers play? I'm interested to find out if you've tested it with them, how did it work out? Any videos? I wonder how well your counterpicking system works, too.

[Amphoric]

Check the first page for updated ruleset.



Thank you for bringing this issue forward, Beynd. Counterpicking is something we have been trying to hone down since the beginning, since I personally didn't like the idea of giving the advantage, essentially, to whoever won round 1.

So we decided to impose a character limit. With this, we won't necessarily need to require entrants to choose a blind character for round one. You just go into round one knowing potentially what your opponent can throw at you. After that the counter picking procedure runs as listed. Loser picks stage. Then, with this in mind the winner can change characters, abilities, and equipment builds to counter the opponents possible 3 counterpick characters and stage choice. Then the loser picks their character.

Keep in mind that most of the time, the winner is required to keep their character and equipment and abilities. I found this a bit too restrictive. Also, each player is allowed to choose one stage to strike from the counterpicking process. (I wanted to include Dave's Stupid Rule (http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Dave%27s_Stupid_Rule), but Wedge was against the idea. What do you think?)

I may be missing something so I'll edit it in when I get a minute (taking care of my niece at the mo'). Thanks again, Beynd, for bringing this to our attention!

Edit: Remember to feel free to voice your opinions on any of the changes or issues I've talked about here (such as the character limit and counterpicking process). The feedback is quite valuable, and nothing is set in stone.

See I wasn't sure if there was a "set" number of characters that a player could enter with. Thus letting him practically pick any character that is a perfect counterpick for that character. But if an Imposed limit of 3 characters should possibly do the trick, if it was me I'd only go with 2 character entries, since having 3 characters to choose from I find you can have a counterpick system for most chars with 3 guys selected.

Like imagine having like Squall, Kuja and your main. Well you just practically have a counterpick system for most players.

I can see comments like omg squall and kuja are easy to beat, but they arent when they get picked as your characters counterpick, etc.

Once again this is just my opinion.

[Shuruka]

depending on when this comes into play, i might join....
my Xlink is down becuase i couldnt port forward, so i need to wait untill i get a new router to portforward with

[SilvaKairi]

wat about this for character picking

its like you get to pick 1 person you want to enter for tournament(no swaping)
and your opponent picks 2 more for you, and during the start of round 1 of the match, you each pick 1 character for the other person. after round 1 one, loser can change character, and opponents character, and the opponent chooses stage.
and same for round 3.
justa thought, but i think theres going to be some flaws in it

[Slayer0]

A-ther and me played some matches under this ruleset today. Granted, the sets were pretty much thrown together last minute, and I was outclassed, but I like how this ruleset is shaping up.

[judah01]

Hmmm....how about restricting entering EX Mode if you are hitting your opponent or he is staggering? It would also cut down on 'I have you now' EX Bursts

I was skimming the thread and saw this post again. I remember I had thought of implementing this rule from a while back, but it seemed somewhat unorthodox. But its about as unorthodox as not attacking after you EX Guard. I talked it over briefly with Wedge, and we think that restricting the ability to enter EX Mode (and after that, burst) while you have your opponent in stagger or hit-stun would allow us to un-limit EX Bursts without the fear of EX burst Campers.

Thoughts? Should we allow unlimited bursts? Only allow 3 Bursts per match? Should we even enforce this rule? And are multiple bursts needed/overpowered? Are there proper ways to defend against someone aiming to abuse multi burst? I know what I think, but I want to hear from you all first. That, and I've typed enough and must sleepy time now.

[Veysey]

I actually like the one per fight rule (in regards to EX Bursting). It'll usually do ~800 - 1500 damage depending on the character which is usually enough to break the opponent and get the brave pool. If your brave pool is ~2.5k, that person just drained 35% of your life. Do that x3 times and it's over. Yeah, they need to land HP attacks but some characters can do this easier than others and unlimitting EX Bursts will also change their core gameplay approach *coughzidanecough*.

If players only have one chance to burst, you're going to see (usually) 3 situations (if they actually use a burst):
- Players use the burst to cut brave off of their opponent who is ready to 1 hit KO them
- Players use the burst to break their opponent and get the brave pool for big damage
- Players burst just because they like the pretty colors and damage >_>

Unlimitting EX Bursts also has the effect (especially for characters with easy links) of increasing ex guarding. Let's take Jecht for example (not mine cause well... yeah >_>): I have a quick ex building set of equips so I get into ex quite often. I'm able to use my full combo ability to shake up the match and make myself much more unpredictable and land more hits (which can all turn into HP attacks). I burst off of every one of them. Why? So I deplete my gauge, build it back up quickly, and have another ex guard on hand. Maybe Jecht is a bad example, but I hope you got my point.

As for not letting them enter ex while the opponent is in hitstun or stagger... I don't think this is a good idea for a few points...

- First, they got their opponent into that situation on their own... yes it's safe to enter ex mode at that moment but only because the player worked to create that situation. It's not like they're entering to ex guard for a stagger then attacking (ex counter) ... they didn't bait their opponent or anything... simply played the match and used it at the most ideal situation for them.

- Second, using their EX gauge to Burst (with a 1 burst rule) while having their opponent in hitstun or stagger without finishing the match means that they've opted to take an offensive approach and put themselves at a disadvantage where their gauge is depleted so no longer get their ex bonuses, the opponent knows they can't use any more bursts in that match, and can't ex guard if they need it (until they fill their gauge again which may or may not be quickly done).

- Third, you' be basically banning Ex cancel combos (which may or may not be something you want to do)

- Fourth, if I understand correctly... you're basically limited to ex mode when you and your opponent ... well, aren't interacting directly. This (in my opinion) promotes players simply running away or avoiding interaction with the EX'd character.


For me, I'd think that banning EX Bursts right out would be ideal except that some characters have a hard time landing HP attacks and when they do, they might want to use that EX mode to make the most of it so they have to do it as few times as possible. Well... maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, in which case take whats worthwhile. And on that note:
I think 1 per fight is alright,
but banning them outright sounds really tight ... >_<

[Wedge]

Updated first post reducing Multiplier Cap from 6.0 to 5.0

Probably need to post Rei-N's redefining EX terms because EXCounter and such needs to be explained in detail...

[SilvaKairi]

wedge, have you guys decided when this tournament starts?

[Lycoris]

Silly Wedge, you posted 5x and then 6x xD
"Accessory limits
Multiplier cap of 5.0 Multipliers at no point should go above this number during a fight."

"=Booster Accessories (Multiplier Cap of 6.0)"

And go go Wedge, you have my complete support in this. *finished making builds with your rules already* =3

[Hella-Bright]

That is if you can even get on Kai Lyco, and get it working.

Robo has tried and has FAILED

[RoboDestroyer]

No no Hella, kai doesn't really work well on the crappy laptop. I can still kai with Lyco's computer

[Shuruka]

i got my kai working again, so I'm hard at work making builds for three charecters of mine, I may be new, but this is the fastest way to prove my worth.

or at least my bravery.

or foolhardyness.

and so, a problom arises, i need to get my laptop serviced, for i have fried its charging capabilities, and if it is far to expensive, i will not be in this tournament, as i will have the dificulties of getting on. unless i am fortunate enough for my family to buy me a new one.

[Hella-Bright]

Shitty times...

Well ima be in it. Depending on WHEN it will be happening.

[Shuruka]

haha i got it fixed. i think.

[R3dw4t3r]

Because i'm new to this tournament stuff, i'm just wondering if it will be required to use all 3 pre-determined characters at least once throughout the tournament and if you HAVE to change characters after each battle (Which i don't beleive would be the case). Thx in advance.

[ShineThatLight]

The three character rule was placed so that you don't just go counterpicking every choice. You aren't required to use every character, but a little variety never hurt :D

Please, Wedge or Judah feel free to elaborate or correct me if i have it all wrong.

[judah01]

The three character rule was placed so that you don't just go counterpicking every choice. You aren't required to use every character, but a little variety never hurt :D

Please, Wedge or Judah feel free to elaborate or correct me if i have it all wrong.

This is true. If you have a main you love playing, just pick two other characters that may cover your mains weakness's.

But no, you are in no way obligated to play with all of the characters you register the tourney with.

[RoboDestroyer]

Ruleset is good ATM except for one thing. I still argue that Regen builds are still quite broken even with a 5 multiplier. Thats around 300 HP regen which adds up to alot. If your not banning it I have a nice set I can use for this tourny =P

[Hella-Bright]

Okay.... so yeah, change of plans. My dad might be loseing his job so I will PROBABLY lose internet. I'ma try to convince him to keep the internet so I can just pay for it or what ever. I just need to get a raise.. >__>

So I might not be in this. Sadday.

[RoboDestroyer]

That sucks Hella =\ Hope he doesn't lost his job, I still wanna own you at Dissidia.. err I mean have some nice friendly matches >_>

[tw1g007]

If only this was adhoc party based. *sigh*

Not sure when I might get back to dissidia but this tournament intrigues me.

[Shuruka]

there is a reason we use Xlink dude, its cheaper then buying a ps3, its 20 bucks for an adapter, and all you need is a decent PC and internet.

[Bloodsword83]

What's REALLY stopping someone from running an Adhoc Party tournament under these rules?

[Veysey]

What's REALLY stopping someone from running an Adhoc Party tournament under these rules?

Time and resources? Besides, I think it's best to let this go as is and see what flaws pop up during the tourney. Once the kinks are worked out and depending on how well it goes over, we're more than likely going to see an ad-hoc version anyway.

On a side note, Kai is being completely unreasonable on my desktop... might try setting up on my laptop (reluctant to until now since it's my school computer) and see if it works any better. I'd like to partake in this, so better get everything ready.

[RoboDestroyer]

Even after all that work to set it up? Sucks.

[SilvaKairi]

does this mean no kai tourny?

[Wedge]

does this mean no kai tourny?

Uh who said there wasn't gonna be a kai tournament?
Sign ups will be coming very soon. I'm just waiting for one thing to finish.

[Shuruka]

so i did several matches testing this, and have noticed, while you didnt want a break to determine the game, playing on non omega maps, a player isnt gonna hit you unless your HP goes WAY down or your a chipper, so if they are in EX mode they'll burst, and break, match decided, i dont care to much for the adtition of EX bursts, 9/10 times i played with them, they were what decided the match regardless of charecter chosen.

[SilvaKairi]

Uh who said there wasn't gonna be a kai tournament?
Sign ups will be coming very soon. I'm just waiting for one thing to finish.

how soon is very soon? i dont have my adaptor atm, and i need to wait till atleast monday to get it o.o

[Shuruka]

how soon is very soon? i dont have my adaptor atm, and i need to wait till atleast monday to get it o.o
the signups will be up soon, but then they need to make a bracket, it wont be happening by monday even if signups were posted today :3

[SilvaKairi]

okies, good then

[Hella-Bright]

I like how over half of the people signed up are NEVER on Kai, like EVER. Most are totally new to me. lol

[RDFMASTER]

I like how over half of the people signed up are NEVER on Kai, like EVER. Most are totally new to me. lol


But But i go there sometimes :(. It is KAoS tourney which keep me busy. :mad:

[Hella-Bright]

I really hope I have better luck this time around...

[xffixbmlx]

I really hope I have better luck this time around...

With my body by your side, luck isn't even a factor..

;D

[Wedge]

Closing this thread. The ruleset on this one is outdated, The updated ruleset can be found on the sign ups thread. Please take rule discussions or tournament discussions to the appropriate threads. Thank you