In Depth Battle Mechanics Discussion

[spark]

Great thread! :) Sticky this.

[Slayer0]

Wow, this is some really good info! Sticky would be excellent.

[Lichtgestalt]

VERY BUT VERY impresed here

congratz,

awesome info

[Kite]

Bartz' Wind Shear bonus effect, i.e A Bartz equipping 3x Wind Shear and Speed Boost++
(6 rank higher) will have the same speed as a Onion Knight with Speed Boost++

oh shiii, I couldve sworn it was only as fast as zidane, but oh well

[Scott]

I never thought of equipping a move multiple times for multiple bonuses from it. Wow.

[Katsu]

This is really extensive. Great job!

[Fayt]

Wow awesome info there man!

[pheano]

very nice guide

[ShineThatLight]

Holy shit, this is very very interesting
I love the damage formula, thanks man.

[!Certified!]

Wow.. there was a good portion of this that I didn't get and yet I found an interesting read. Nice, you deserve a rep my man, though I don't think it'll get you very far here...

[spark]

Could you add some battlegen/drop/artifact rate info?

[Nexus_Nocturnal]

wow how did that happen? My post ended up in the wrong topic

[ujhbn]

Could you add some battlegen/drop/artifact rate info?

Sorry, the info from wiki about these are probably not valid in the NA/EU version (seeing as +N% becomes xN ) and I have no way in testing those.

and things like "67 is the highest LUK you need for item drop" is pretty well known by now.

Or if you have any specific questions, I would gladly answer them.

[Veysey]

Awesome information.

In response to your PS - yes, I think individual character sections would be a great help. Though that does seem like a fair bit of work so don't worry about it if you think it'd be too much effort.

[Smoofy]

It seems you must have taken a lot of time to make this guide, and all of this I didn't know. Thanks for the information, it was a good read and very interesting, much like the damage formula, I liked that.

[tried42long]

Nice info's there especially the damage formula.

[Hollowed]

Thanks for all the work! I really appreciate it. This will be a reference I'll look to often.:)

I've already learned a lot from it like attack priorities.

[Suppi]

when your ATK is higher than enemy's DEF:
Character base damage = (((your ATK - enemy DEF)+10) ÷ 10) x enemy's raw BRV ÷ 100

This is godly awesome... wow O.o
Now I can mathematically see how well my Attack ring set does XD
*hmm so my base damage is 20~ ish... what does that mean in terms of my attacks now???*
=== Double post was automatically merged. ===

Character Movement Speed

Fastest
0 Tidus (EX mode)
1 Onion Knight
2 Zidane, Tidus, Gabranth (EX mode)
3 Cecil (Paladin), Squall, Jecht
4 WoL, Bartz, Shantotto
5 Golbez, Cloud, Kuja
6 Firion, Emperor
7 CoD, Cecil (Dark Knight), Sephiroth
8 Garland, Terra
9 Kefka, Gabranth
10 Ultimecia
11 Chaos
?? Exdeath
Slowest

Ability Speed Boost/+/++ increase your speed about 1/2/3 rank higher, this also applies to
Bartz' Wind Shear bonus effect, i.e A Bartz equipping 3x Wind Shear and Speed Boost++
(6 rank higher) will have the same speed as a Onion Knight with Speed Boost++.

I so want to try this now O.o... I didn't think the + abilities worked like that o.o I always thought it ran on % speed or number speed like in Tales of Vs.

[ujhbn]

*hmm so my base damage is 20~ ish... what does that mean in terms of my attacks now???*

20 as a character base damage is very high, that's about having 20 ATK over your opponent's DEF for a Lv 100 match.


I so want to try this now O.o... I didn't think the + abilities worked like that o.o I always thought it ran on % speed or number speed like in Tales of Vs.

The Speed Boost abilities do work on %.
FYI, Speed Boost = +8%
Speed Boost+ = +16%
Speed Boost++ = +24%

I thought that the % numbers are not really useful as we are not given with any speed numbers (I still don't know how far is 1m in the battlefield XD) But will make more sense if comparing with other characters, hence making the ranks.
With some testings, it showed that the gap between each ranks is close to 8%.

[crzysteveo]

Wow dude; very nice compilation of information here, Thanks so very much for the ability to finally calculate out my damage/speed because I have so wanted to see this information before this; and now i do.*Bows head

[Rei-N]

Now we're getting shit we need closer to a proper rule list and ranking system.

[Suppi]

Now we're getting shit we need closer to a proper rule list and ranking system.

it's funny how this was already posted over half a year ago when japanese dissidia was still out.
We are so behind DX

[Wella]

Amazing compilation of stuff, a ton of stuff I never knew is in there. :D

[ujhbn]

Added info on EX Bursts

[Kraid]

Useless note: +damage% does affect EX Burst damage, but all boosters are ignored.



I had a feeling that might be the case. I remember saying originally DMG% doesn't affect Ex-Burst. But then I remember some time ago looking back at my Ex-Burst charts AND then my ATK Vs DMG% charts.

I didn't realise at those time that damage from EX-bursts was actually fixed. So I apologize to everyone who was infact misinformed slightly on my part. But the damage is still negligable as ujhbn has stated: Boosters are not applied.

I do have something to ask, since I've had no will to do this by myself: Is there anyway to calcuate and predict the ATK drop after an Ex-Burst? Because from tests in the JPN and US version in the past, during an EX-Burst drops your damage. However it seems ridiciously random, so I'm wondering if there's a way to calcuate that.

[ujhbn]

I do have something to ask, since I've had no will to do this by myself: Is there anyway to calcuate and predict the ATK drop after an Ex-Burst? Because from tests in the JPN and US version in the past, during an EX-Burst drops your damage. However it seems ridiciously random, so I'm wondering if there's a way to calcuate that.

Um... I have never encountered any ATK drop during/after an EX Burst. The damage numbers on screen were always the same as I calculated using the formula.
Damage gets lower during EX Burst may due to opponent's DEF gauge; while damage drops after an EX Burst may due to your opponent's HP dropped to danger zone and had Physical/Magical Shield activated.

EDIT: Sorry I was wrong. There is in fact damage drop after EX Burst. Info updated in first post.

[HYNE]

Well, when you exit the EX Burst, the multiplier climbs up from ×1.0 to the appropriate number, that basically proves that the multiplier is indeed ignored during the burst.

Still, there's EX mode - I'm wondering how much of a critical damage difference it is when comparing a full +ATK build to an EX build which has one +dmg% accessory (with a max multiplier of 5-7). Think I will test it some time in actual battles or using the formulas.

[ujhbn]

Still, there's EX mode - I'm wondering how much of a critical damage difference it is when comparing a full +ATK build to an EX build which has one +dmg% accessory (with a max multiplier of 5-7). Think I will test it some time in actual battles or using the formulas.

Well, I could give you some numbers :)

On matches with equips or 6999, ATK+11 roughly means twice the damage on both normal and crit hits.
So if original damage = 100, original crit = 500
ATK build normal =~ 200, ATK build crit =~ 1000

One damage +25% accessory (C. Belt/ S. Earring) with x7 boosters = +175% damage
normal hit = 275, crit = 675

[Armoxus]

Ability Speed Boost/+/++ increase your speed about 1/2/3 rank higher, this also applies to
Bartz' Wind Shear bonus effect, i.e A Bartz equipping 3x Wind Shear and Speed Boost++
(6 rank higher) will have the same speed as a Onion Knight with Speed Boost++.

Note that there's no rank number for Exdeath since even with Speed Boost++, he is still
much much slower than Ultimecia.


Well, now I know what to spend meh extra CP on. :o

[icyie04]

Well, I could give you some numbers :)

On matches with equips or 6999, ATK+11 roughly means twice the damage on both normal and crit hits.
So if original damage = 100, original crit = 500
ATK build normal =~ 200, ATK build crit =~ 1000

One damage +25% accessory (C. Belt/ S. Earring) with x7 boosters = +175% damage
normal hit = 275, crit = 675

Those multiplied boosters barely affect crit damage. You'll probably be doing 275 with 500+ crits.

That's why if you're crit happy, it's better to go atk build.

[ujhbn]

er... yes, +% dun increase crit damage much because the extra damage is calculated from the base, but I'm quite sure about the 675 crit instead of 500+.
The +175% from accessories give +175 extra damage (in this case) to both normal and crit hits, 100>275, 500>675, that's how it works.

[icyie04]

Whoops, my bad. Probably too tired to think straight.

[Nemphtis]

I have a question that was kinda answered in the original post but I don't quite 'get it'. I use The Emperor and I've stocked him up on accessories that give him 10% Magic Damage and such, but how do you tell which attacks are physical and which ones are magic? Is it just common sense, like the Emperor's HP attack 'Flare' looks like it would be magic, but I don't know how to actually verify these assumptions.

[ujhbn]

Firstly, the +% Physical/Magical damage only applies to Brave attacks. It won't affect HP attack damage, which should always equal to your current BRV.

For how to tell which are physical or magical, yes, as you say, its common sense in most cases, with a few exceptions like Golbez melee slaps are magical.
I have individual threads listing the properties of all attacks in the Character Section. Here (http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3960) is the one for Emperor.

[Hollowed]

I've been wondering about this for a while. Do you know the stats of Block and Dodge?

[ujhbn]

Yes, I have added those to the info thread

[Hollowed]

Much appreciated:D It will take time for me to register them, hehe.

[Slayer0]

So how difficult would it be to obtain complete frame data on moves and not just startup to active? Like, Cecil has approximately 28-32 frames of recovery after a missed Valiant Blow before you can dodge out of it.. That's terrible.

How could we test this and make it accurate though?

[The_Pariah]

make a replay and just frame forward in the editor?

[Slayer0]

I did. That's how I got the 30 frames.

However is it worth it to do that for every move and how accurate is my count?

[ujhbn]

So how difficult would it be to obtain complete frame data on moves and not just startup to active? Like, Cecil has approximately 28-32 frames of recovery after a missed Valiant Blow before you can dodge out of it.. That's terrible.

How could we test this and make it accurate though?

What I could think of is by mashing the dodge command and hope it is fast enough to dodge on the first available frame. And to make it more accurate, this should be repeated for a few times and take the fastest result.

It is not really difficult, but would take longgggggggggggggg time to make a "complete" list.

Unlike the startup frame which is usually one frame data per move, the number of possible dodge cancel = number of button press of that move. eg. 2 for Valiant Blow, DC after a missed (1st part) and DC after a complete hit.

[Rebirthflames]

Ppl are saying thanks but i see no info!!! Plz?

[ujhbn]

Because this thread was originally here
http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3923
:)

[Slayer0]

What I could think of is by mashing the dodge command and hope it is fast enough to dodge on the first available frame. And to make it more accurate, this should be repeated for a few times and take the fastest result.

It is not really difficult, but would take longgggggggggggggg time to make a "complete" list.

Unlike the startup frame which is usually one frame data per move, the number of possible dodge cancel = number of button press of that move. eg. 2 for Valiant Blow, DC after a missed (1st part) and DC after a complete hit.

Indeed. It also gets iffy on attacks like Dark Cannon, where it's hard to tell where the active frames end or on Dark Flame, where the active hitbox moves away from Cecil but can still damage the enemy.

Ah well.

[533787655464]

With attacks like Dark Cannon, how it has Feint, does that mean you can cancel into other attacks? (CoD's Ex ability for example)

[ujhbn]

You mean the (Feint) word in the ability description when you press [] ? I think it is a mere description rather than an actual property (Chase, Wall Rush) of the move.

Yes, some skills like WoL's Fangs could be cancelled into another attack at their end lag, but most others could not.


Oh and Dark Cannon does not have (Feint) by the way ^^

[533787655464]

Oh, I thought Feint just meant it has less enough lag time that it is possible to combo the move or something... Like BB for Squall, you can keep shooting, in a way, like how you can use BB>HP attack blah blah blah, you get me?

[Wedge]

Question! Am I just crazy or does Garland have less EX guard frames than other characters? The information you posted says that invincibility frames are "Invincible frame 1~50F."

[Haruhiist]

You're not crazy, Garland's EX Guard is shorter than the period between hits in Tidus' Quick Hit, personal experience from fighting my friend's Garland. <.<

[ujhbn]

Question! Am I just crazy or does Garland have less EX guard frames than other characters? The information you posted says that invincibility frames are "Invincible frame 1~50F."

A bit confusion here. Are you talking about the guard/block/shield frame that appears when entering EX Mode? or the Invincible frame granted to your character when EX Guarding while being hit?


Entering EX Mode while being hit (NOT staggering):
Block Highest priority 3~32F
Invincible frame 1~50F
Cancel-able at 39F*
End at 50F
*You can cancel the animation to anything much like a succcessful block after 39F, but the invincible effect will also disappear right after your cancel.

The former is the actual block with Omni Guard Priority and lasts for 3~32F, less than the Invincible frames.
On the other hand, the invincible frames would disappear if you mistakenly cancelled into something like movement by holding the stick to any direction.

Yet, above are just possibilities. Garland maybe a special case as you said. Sorry, I can't say for sure atm as I have not tested this with Garland.
Give me sometime and I could tell you what I find after testings :)


Update: Finished testing (with Emperor's Thunder Crest), showed that Garland has the same invincible frames as others (50F).

[TherathxRikku]

I never found Glide to be very useful, Omni Air Dash works faster, except Glide can't be blocked, so there's on upside. Course, I'm never in EX Mode with Terra or Sephy and I never use Kuja, so I never had a reason to use it anyway...