KAoS Tournament Finalized Brackets

[Hallabaloo4]

oh... sephiroth.. vs... terra.... ok >.>;

[Dave880]

Dude, I was talking to Dave during your guys first fight and I managed to finish three stages of Modern Warfare 2, eat two sausage rolls and help clean out a fish tank whilst you guys fought. I came back from said lunch and you guys were still at it.. at which point I lay down and nearly fell asleep. That match was so darn long.. Don't worry K'Gen, I scolded Dave for being a prick in that match. D:<

To be honest, I thought K'Gen would have beaten me in the first match. He had all the brave but couldn't nail that HP attack on me with Squall. When he did, I had a ex bar to save me from it. Back against the wall + Cat Nip + Sephiroth = <3

EDIT: I'll upload Match 2 and 3 on my channel. I think Wedge is putting some custom BGM onto the DFF youtube one.

[Veysey]

Soooo when can we expect the final showdown? Any dates set up?

[Dave880]

Whenever pokefan is ready. I'm ready to settle it anytime.

[Nemo]

Just saw the matches on Dave's channel. Haha, darn Gen, you had him there in Match 3, if only you EX'ed in time xD.

[K´Genesis]

Actually, I did, my friend. But the game didn´t register it. Don´t really know what happened there.
And in the first match, I actually had another chance. I blocked one dash with killing BRV, but I must´ve hit R too hard, because Squall blocked again accidentally. Things that happen.

EDIT: And thanks, Rep...lol. He just did what he felt he should do to win. No big deal.

[Draec Khin]

So I looked at the matches that Dave posted in his channel and I tried really hard looking at it from a neutral perspective and an attitude to do everything you gotta do to win-- after all it is a tourney. So half into the fight I was barely keeping myself from navigating away from that page, and here is a reason why:

It seems that there was something just plainly wrong with the way those matches were done. I can understand why Dave played like he did (he wanted to win), but I found it to be just ridiculous of dashing and dashing and dashing for such long periods of time. I felt like that match was making a use of gimmicks. Is that the way the competitive scene is now days? I strongly feel like something needs to be done about stalling matches like that. We can go with an attitude that that is how you need to play to win, but I think that is beginning to destroy the dissidia competitive scene and spirit.

Does anyone else who looked into the fight felt there was some sort of lackluster to it? Should something be done about it? Should everyone now start playing like that?

Now when I bring this up I am looking at it from a neutral view: is there anything wrong with matches like that? I feel that there is.

[Dave880]

ATTENTION ALL VIEWERS: Tomorrow, Pokefan and I will settle KAoS once and for all. Sorry for all of those who have lost interest due to the long wait. ^-')b

[Suppi]

Holy shit this thing still going? :3

[Repliica]

Sadly so.. It took forever but its about to come to an end, yay!

Secondly, David you're awesome but I'm not letting you live down what you did D:< Bad Dave is bad.. and Draec, David didn't want to win. He was wondering whether K'Gen could land an HP hit just for teh lulz. Silly David, gosh.. <3

Anywho good luck to Pokefan and Dave for tomorrow, just so you know David if I hear that you've done anything silly I will beat you like a pinata.. D:< Lets make the finals awesome.. and then get onto the next tournament that I want to be in! :3

BTW K'Gen, I understand but still.. David was bad for pulling out those tricks again.. D:<

[Veysey]

Wooo! Can't wait!

On a side note: Maybe I'll be able to participate at least a little longer in the next tourney (shooting for 2 wins instead of 1) XD

[Statistic]

It's all David knows, personally it's the way I ever see him play this game. I'm rather sick of it, if this is going to be the competitive scene then I want no part of it, Dave personally is ruining that for me. His fights are boring. DASH DASH DASH Shadow Flare DASH DASH DASH. BORING!!!!

[Dave880]

^Someone sounds angry ^-')b Don't join then Statistic and stop being a party pooper =/ Lrn to Counterpick KTHXBYE. Firion, CoD, and Exdeath wants a word with you Statistic so stop being dumb =(
Firion neglects SF Holy spam
Exdeath does everything to neglect those options
If your sick of it, get more options to stop it and stop bitching about it ^-')b

EDIT: You also did know the match was only 10 mins long and there wasn't any periods where dashing lasted for 1min+. There was constant action going on even though its not the kind you were expecting. On top of that, K'Genesis had windows to win so stop acting childish about this matter... Its quite funny to be honest how this has always been going on since the JPN version of DFF and yet no one talks about it till now.

[Veysey]

It's all David knows, personally it's the way I ever see him play this game. I'm rather sick of it, if this is going to be the competitive scene then I want no part of it, Dave personally is ruining that for me. His fights are boring. DASH DASH DASH Shadow Flare DASH DASH DASH. BORING!!!!

I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet. If another few tournaments go by and the same sort of tactics are constantly showing up in the finals and remaining completely unbeaten (heck isn't even the case now), then we might have a problem. For now, the community sees what's happening and people are adapting. Let them try to find a solution. We won't progress by simply banning every tactic that seems unbeatable at it's first sign.

While it might not be fun to watch for most, it's certainly interesting to watch and see how Dave manipulates his opponents with his spam. And I don't think anyone can argue that he sure knows how to play in close range as well. K'Genesis came really close and was doing awesome in the 3rd match - that alone lends me to think that as people experiment and get to know the tactics a little better, Dave might need to look for new ways to aggravate higher level opponents :P

Anyways, great matches by both K'Gen and Dave. Some might say they're boring, but I really enjoyed watching them!

[Statistic]

Explain to me how I was being childish Dave, do it. I stated my own personal opinion, that isn't childish. Also I'm not angry, at all. I'm just tired of seeing people lose to cheap tactics, it does piss people off. It also makes you look bad, but unfortunately you have such a huge fan boy fan base nobody says shit to you.

[Dave880]

I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet. If another few tournaments go by and the same sort of tactics are constantly showing up in the finals and remaining unbeaten, then we might have a problem. For now, the community sees what's happening and people are adapting. Let them try to find a solution. We won't progress by simply banning every tactic that seems unbeatable at it's first sign.

While it might not be fun to watch for most, it's certainly interesting to watch and see how Dave manipulates his opponents with his spam. And I don't think anyone can argue that he sure knows how to play in close range as well. K'Genesis came really close and was doing awesome in the 3rd match - that alone lends me to think that as people experiment and get to know the tactics a little better, Dave might need to look for new ways to aggravate higher level opponents :P

Anyways, great matches by both K'Gen and Dave. Some might say they're boring, but I really enjoyed watching them!

Of course, I always have new things up my bag ^-')b (or not!) The fact that there is this much drama about the matter goes to show you how flawed the battle system is in DFF. It has been there since the JPN version but no one complained about it till they saw someone winning with a ridiculous tactic. FYI, the only opponent I have played in this tournament so far are Jecht, Terra, and Squalls. I have faced at least 5 squalls and yet people think this tactic is unbeaten able ! Remember kids, there are other options to use even if you feel comfortable using your main.


Explain to me how I was being childish Dave, do it. I stated my own personal opinion, that isn't childish. Also I'm not angry, at all. I'm just tired of seeing people lose to cheap tactics, it does piss people off. It also makes you look bad, but unfortunately you have such a huge fan boy fan base nobody says shit to you.

Its childish because you forget to see the other options to neglect this tactic. All your seeing is Squall players losing to this style and you forget to see that other characters like Exdeath can easily stop this in a heart beat. Do I care what people think? No. I'm happy with the fact that this is getting attention (positive/negative) because it goes to show how the battle system is in DFF. I'll be glad to take the heat so you guys can decide what you want to do like in future tournaments =p Like I said, it isn't a impossible tactic to beat... Just use Firion, CoD, or Exdeath and it will all go away in a second. AGAIN, K'Genesis had windows to win so idk what the problem is =( Back against the wall + Cat nip + sephiroth = bread and butter baby ^-')b

[Nemo]

The "spamming discussion" drama has already taken place, lets not bring it up again..

[Statistic]

People should not have to use a character outside of there mains just to counter such a dirty tactic. Also I still fail to see how this is childish, if your doing this to see results then here they are. Your tactics suck, there cheap, and your probably one of the biggest spammers there are in this game. If you know its a broke method and continue to use it then why don't you find a BALANCED tactic for tourney play so that everyone has a fair shot at doing at least decent in a tourney, rather then auto-losing because of some cheap tactic that takes no skill in using. This isn't childish Dave, this is casual discussion if you can't handle this then you probably shouldn't be a Global MOD. Just saying.

[Dave880]

^ And I'm just saying why don't you look at the bigger picture and see the other options available? Statistic... This is a tournament... no one is going to hold your hand so you can win... On my last note, if you don't want to play other characters then its fine. Its your choice on who you want to use in a match but what I'm saying is that this tactic that you are calling "cheap" and "dirty" has existed back in the JPN version. We had EX core camping from Human Jecht fighter (I'm sure Rei-N remembers this =p) and quite a few other ones. Even Rei-N has told me that in Real life tournaments in Japan that there are MANY players who use HumanJechtFighters tactic. If you want to keep using squall, go ahead but like I said other characters can deal with this problem a lot easier to make Seph's SF tactic to stop in a heart beat. If you think I'm bad, then expect future tournament to have other players to have this. Its a good thing its being brought up now then later that way people can learn to adapt in order to win ^-')b If you can't handle tournament tactics like that, you shouldn't join (just saying) Anyways, Pokefan im waiting for u =(

[Wedge]

Can someone explain to me how trying to not get hit by a 9999 Squall and get his brave down is cheap? I mean I could do the exact same thing with Jecht if I stayed in the air but worse because I have Jecht Block to null RD. The only way Squall could land an HP attack on me at that point would be AC on block.

Actually Statistic, you just threw a slew of "insults" at Dave (though they shouldn't be) of cheap, spammer and you mentioned that somehow has something to do with him being a Global Mod. Hes stated some legit counters to Sephiroth and you're ignoring them because you think "People should not have to use a character outside of there mains just to counter such a dirty tactic." Not gonna lie, thats bullshit son. :3 DFF match ups are sometimes completely one-sided because of single moves. You have to accept that every character can't take on every character (sans Terra >.>)

Zidane + S9 > Golbez,
CoD + Wrath > Garland
Kuja + Remote Flare > Exdeath

Those are just a few, but there are TONS more. Squall does that for a lot of match ups as well. So are you calling these characters cheap? Are you calling Squall cheap? Thats DFF.

[Statistic]

Stop trying to put words into my mouth Wedge, I never called Squall or any other character "cheap" I said the tactics Dave uses is cheap and rather bores the hell out of me to watch any replay made by him, because it is all you see him doing, dashing around the map doing nothing! So you can say I called characters cheap all you want, but that is not what I said. Maybe try re-reading my posts and then you can "maybe" comprehend that, just maybe...

[Skye]

Then stop watching them. Problem solved.

[Statistic]

Then stop watching them. Problem solved.

That doesn't solve the problem, he's still out there dashing around doing nothing, he'll continue to play this way too. I find it cheap and stupid. It's basically putting Dissidia on easy mode and using no skill at all.

[ShineThatLight]

Statistic, stop acting so ignorant. Just because all you see is spam doesn't mean that's what is actually there.
Go look at Dave's replays puhleez, you will see (if you really look) that he is not just dashing for no reason, he is spacing himself so that the furthest Shadow Flare hits and the opponent can't dodge. I played Dave multiple times before the tourny started and during its progression until I lost my ps3, I never had trouble dealing with the SF spam unless I got level fucked. I even played Squall and did decent. Just because they have to go out of the comfort zone that is so well established for Squall doesn't mean he is completely crippled by this tactic.

So Statistic, go rewatch Dave's replays and you will see that it isn't just mindless SF spam, it is a tactic and then you can "maybe" comprehend that, just maybe...
As has been stated, this isn't a 'cheap' tactic by any means. Repetitive? Yes. Cheap? Hell no. It can and will be overcome. As for your whole "I shouldn't have to change my main because of one matchup/move" fiasco, man up. Seriously? You are going to try and argue that? There is a reason you should have to get good with more than Squall if you want to cut it competitively. In the name of all that is Arnold "Stop whining."

[Skye]

That doesn't solve the problem, he's still out there dashing around doing nothing, he'll continue to play this way too. I find it cheap and stupid. It's basically putting Dissidia on easy mode and using no skill at all.

Then please. Show me a competitive tourney where you win by having this useless "Code of honor". I'd love to know.

Anything that isn't in the rules is fair game.

[Wedge]

Stop trying to put words into my mouth Wedge, I never called Squall or any other character "cheap" I said the tactics Dave uses is cheap and rather bores the hell out of me to watch any replay made by him, because it is all you see him doing, dashing around the map doing nothing! So you can say I called characters cheap all you want, but that is not what I said. Maybe try re-reading my posts and then you can "maybe" comprehend that, just maybe...

I apologize if I sounded like I put words in your mouth (I was trying to be rhetorical, my bad :P) but Dave wasn't simply running away. He was attacking with SF to safely damage his opponent and get him out of killing range. This is just like what happens in other communities when people complain about Hadoken/Tiger spam because they can't get past it. If it works, why should you stop? What would you have Dave do in that instance vs K'Gen? Would you have preferred if he just stood there and took a RD once he had 9999 brave? If its avoidable, you do whatever you can to avoid it. And Dave thoroughly explained everything earlier he fought 1 Jecht, 1 Terra and 5(maybe 4 I forget) Squalls. If he fought other characters, things might have been different. Its not like SF is unbeatable. Its fucking hard for most, but for others its a cake walk.

And if you're attacking Dave's tactics in general, you might wanna check yourself. Doing what you can to get free damage in while playing as safe as possible is fighting 101. You don't see people bashing other players like K`Gen, Pokefan, Paru, BML, who play the EXACT SAME WAY (ie safe.) Yeah he is using SF a lot but that is for many reasons you seem to not be able to "comprehend." SF is pressure, a safe poke, punisher, and combo starter all in 1 move. Why should he not use it? Its the same reasons the previously mentioned players win.

What I "comprehend" from your posts you sound like the same people who complained about Holy Spam, WWF Spam, BF camp, Swift Attack camp, w/e spam/camp. Hell, I used to think the same things too, but you have to realize that if you take DFF as a competitive game, there are going to be competitive tactics.

EDIT: I <3 SHiny

[RDFMASTER]

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

I will like everyone here to stop the argument and KEEP THAT Argument FOR PM OR IRC.

Statistic if you have problem with the tactic, just not watch the replay or neither play the player. If you really want to learn how to counter the Dave's tactic with squall is simple, FREE AIR DASH.

[Wedge]

Uh RDF, theres no insults flying or whatever. If Dave or I deem something inappropriate or out of hand, we will take care of it.

[K´Genesis]

If you really want to learn how to counter the Dave's tactic with squall is simple, FREE AIR DASH.

Far from it. Believe me, you weren´t there. The first match was extremely different from the others in ways you can´t even start to imagine.
Guys, seriously, this kind of discussion, especially handled like that, won´t lead us anywhere. I´m sure that if I had won, this wouldn´t be happening. This is the game we are playing. There´s no changing it. If the design flaws are unbearable, don´t take the game seriously. If there are ways around those flaws, then it´s our job to see them through. This requires experimentation and open minds and is the sole reason why every single tournament so far had different rules.
Can I say I enjoyed my matches against Dave? No, not really. Am I worried because of how they went? Hardly. Like I said before, he did what he felt he had to do to win. And it worked. That´s it. No more, no less.
A dream made of words is worth the same as a castle built with cards. It fades away. The only way around it is through actions, not...this.

Now, can we please finish this tournament? I´m still waiting to properly tune Ragnarok up with the community´s feedback.

EDIT: Can´t believe I almost forgot this, but the curse is finally over...\o/
Fuck the rest...=D

[RDFMASTER]

Uh RDF, theres no insults flying or whatever. If Dave or I deem something inappropriate or out of hand, we will take care of it.

Thanks You, i just want a good harmony in the forums and try to prevent this getting worst.

Anyway DAVE!!!! i want you to _________ :P :cool:

[SilvaKairi]

Go Dave, Win The Tournament! ^.^

[Kite]

I think you a bit mad RDF

[Repliica]

I think its all said and done.. and as stated before, this disscusion has risen. I strongly agree with Wedge, this happens in many games and not only fighters but every game. Good example from my view is Uncharted 2, FAL camping. Modern Warfare 2, No0btubing. MAG, LMG whoring. Guilty Gear, Gunflame spam. Tekken, low kick/button mash. The answer to all that? It's simple really, you just have to learn to adapt and find new ways to beat your opponents. Spam is legit and though it may be boring it also offers a new challenge to the person who has to counter it. So whilst people don't like it.. I think it'll be fun - frustrating but fun.

Anywho, I'm with K'Gen. Lets get this over with so the next tournament can arise! I'm already pumped for it :3

[Nemo]

Far from it. Believe me, you weren´t there. The first match was extremely different from the others in ways you can´t even start to imagine.
Guys, seriously, this kind of discussion, especially handled like that, won´t lead us anywhere. I´m sure that if I had won, this wouldn´t be happening. This is the game we are playing. There´s no changing it. If the design flaws are unbearable, don´t take the game seriously. If there are ways around those flaws, then it´s our job to see them through. This requires experimentation and open minds and is the sole reason why every single tournament so far had different rules.
Can I say I enjoyed my matches against Dave? No, not really. Am I worried because of how they went? Hardly. Like I said before, he did what he felt he had to do to win. And it worked. That´s it. No more, no less.
A dream made of words is worth the same as a castle built with cards. It fades away. The only way around it is through actions, not...this.

Now, can we please finish this tournament? I´m still waiting to properly tune Ragnarok up with the community´s feedback.

EDIT: Can´t believe I almost forgot this, but the curse is finally over...\o/
Fuck the rest...=D

Haha I respect your honesty :P. And epic quote teehee.

[Hallabaloo4]

The answer to all dff problems: Get Better, try again? D:
if rune saber fails, don't.. try and keep using.. it as much? (not fighting or insulting or be mean in the slightest rdf i promise ;( <3 and u know it!,) every1 should just hardcore train, when you lose, learn some new things, and come back next time to show everyone what you've got up your sleeve!

to the extreme ;)

They say Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results, so if you're losing/getting frustrated about spam or other stuff (idk lol) then you just need to pick urself up, change your game, and find out what you need to do to make them realize, spamming won't work ;P cuz if you keep doing the same thing, and keep falling for it, it will make every1 use the same move over and over again

[Kite]

I love how RDF says he wants to keep harmony in the forum in one post and then a pretty troll comment in the very next post

[Dave880]

I think Shine, Wedge, Repliica, and K'Genesis have said it best. For myself, stop bitching and actually do something about it. Get more options, learn new tactics, or w/e. I'm sorry Statistic but it doesn't seem like Tournaments are for you if this is your attitude about things. As for me "dashing around the map doing nothing!" quoted by you, maybe you should rewatch the replay because just MAYBE you can see how K'Genesis' HP went down to 0 instead of me just "dashing around doing nothing!" If I were just to do that, how exactly did his hp go to 0? idk i r confuzzel

Pokefan where are you =( I want to get this done with already!

[Wedge]

RDF I deleted your posts for obvious reasons. K'Gen deserves his spot. Don't get combative.

And I'm glad you broke your curse K'Gen, it was rightly deserved. =D

[funkyman02]

Well seeing how we are discussing something that I have been adamant about in the past, giving Dave the deserved title of tyrant, etc. I might as well comment on it once more. I'll be docile so don't worry.

I have one complaint however and it is the attitude of the people in this topic. Look folks, there are two sides to every coin. While Statistic may be saying things that sound harsh to some ears, he has every right to post his feelings on what was seen. Don't go throwing around shit like "This is useless. Don't watch the videos/post here. Go away" because that is contradictory to everything a FORUM stands for. Let the man speak his mind and let the supporters of Dave's playstyle speak theirs. It's also usually the moderators who are always butting their way into said discussions/debates/whatever the hell you want to call it to a dead stop because of their mod powers. Unless someone is being outright flamed to the umpteenth power, there is no right to stop anything. Dave presented something unfavorable to some, including myself so let these people speak instead of snuffing them out because of "O hai thur i can delete erthang u post kthxbai."

Do I find what Dave has shown is this tourney cheap? It's a tourney and the age old saying of "Play to win" applies most to the tourney scenes so no. Do I find what he did boring, tactless, repetitive and just outright shitty? Yeah, more or less. To be quite honest, I would have hoped that he would use Zidane since it was the LB finals and it would have been nice to see two mains duke it out, not see some dicking around to "prove something." What was there to prove? That DFF isn't really balanced? That's a pretty bad excuse since everyone who touches this game knows that. I mean if you need an excuse to justify said playstyle instead of just coming out and blatantly saying "I'll use this tactic to win because it'll make things easy. Let's spam an attack and see where it gets me. Oh goodie it works. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat." More power to you soul sister. If you want to prove imbalance, then take the high road and duke it without some silly tactic such as spamming. The excuses are the only thing killing me at this point.

I will state one thing though. K'Gen should have been very aware of the difficulties SF spam does to Squall. He did very will to cope with it in Match 2 but again he fell short. Dave was right when he said that certain characters would have been more than capable with countering SF spam but those many Squalls chose to... I guess prove that they could deal with it. After all the Squalls dropping like flies, it should have been quite obvious that a different road should have been taken. While I am definitely stubborn, if I see that something is nigh futile, I'll need to adapt to survive. Adaptation is key and people that could not adapt quick enough got the short end of the stick.

[Repliica]

Whilst I do agree with most of what you have said Funky, I also want to say that moderators don't poke their noses into any argument because they have mod status. Whether I'm a mod or not I would have said something because, like you said, its a forum. I don't know if that was directed towards me, Wedge and RDF but I wasn't attacking Statistic either. I've stated that ALL games are spam capable no matter what it is and that it does take adaption in order to counter it.

David, I know you're upset as well for reasons that don't all concern this topic so try and stay a little calm, okay?

Lastly, there is another topic that has already discussed the matter of spamming so I really don't think it needs to be brought up again. I understand that people have their different viewpoints but again, there are other places to discuss them.

[Stupid Aquarius]

Well this was one hell of an eventful tourney. http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n154/StupidAquarius/aldo.gif

[Repliica]

SA!

You entering the next tourney? :3

[Spyder]

I'm not gonna delve into the topic at hand. However, I do want to say that I don't agree with you Repliica. This thread is used to discuss the tournament matches, and the topic at hand is a discussion of just that. The tournament matches.

I say as long as it stays civil, the discussion has every right to be here. Letting everyone speak their mind is what is important. Funk is not the only one who thinks that alot of people are being shut out because of too much moderation in a public discussion.

Not only are alot of voices are ultimately ignored, but this also promotes quietism. A community cannot thrive if less people speak up.

So, this is a thread about tournament matches. The recent matches are currently being discussed. Instead of looking for an old topic to start the discussion, this topic is the most convenient for everyone to say what's on their minds while it's still fresh in everyone's head.

[codekirin]

Quietism... sounds like censorship lol.

[funkyman02]

And from my time on the forums I have seen more than once that the interference of mods swinging around their threats of deleting, closing, etc. cause all forms of discussion to stop dead in its tracks. It's a sad sight.

And Rep, my post was not directed at any specific mod but more of the whole lot of you. There are some mods who are very open-minded but others become very cold once a differing opinion to theirs is brought up.

[Jirachi]

While I would probably be quite mad if I had to deal with SF spam effectively, I still think it's a reasonable tactic to use. This is a tournament, so as long as no cheating is involved, why shouldn't we simply do the best we can? It doesn't look so effective as to the point of being overpowered, but hey, easy for me to say, seeing as how I haven't faced it yet. But I can see where Statistic's coming from, although his philosophy for competitive play really doesn't fit in this kind of environment, he has the right to discuss it.

Also Wedge, please please PLEASE don't act like K'Genesis's win was rightfully deserved. It wasn't. He won by a stroke of luck (which isn't your fault K'Genesis, I don't blame you), but for you to say that....or for people to congratulate him on a "win" as if it was something he actually earned really makes me agitated. And I'm sure that RDF is even more agitated, since he's the one that lost to said luck and is having his "loss" rubbed in his face.

Anyways Dave, sorry I keep missing you today, but I have plenty of time tomorrow. I'm looking forward to some exciting matches.

[Hallabaloo4]

i'm looking forward to that match to the extreme!

but sadly
i'm rooting for dave, because if i don't the tattoo on my lower backside will explode, ;(

[Wedge]

While I would probably be quite mad if I had to deal with SF spam effectively, I still think it's a reasonable tactic to use. This is a tournament, so as long as no cheating is involved, why shouldn't we simply do the best we can? It doesn't look so effective as to the point of being overpowered, but hey, easy for me to say, seeing as how I haven't faced it yet. But I can see where Statistic's coming from, although his philosophy for competitive play really doesn't fit in this kind of environment, he has the right to discuss it.

Also Wedge, please please PLEASE don't act like K'Genesis's win was rightfully deserved. It wasn't. He won by a stroke of luck (which isn't your fault K'Genesis, I don't blame you), but for you to say that....or for people to congratulate him on a "win" as if it was something he actually earned really makes me agitated. And I'm sure that RDF is even more agitated, since he's the one that lost to said luck and is having his "loss" rubbed in his face.

Anyways Dave, sorry I keep missing you today, but I have plenty of time tomorrow. I'm looking forward to some exciting matches.

I'm not referring the the DQ decision Poke, I was referring to him in the tournament in general. Its always a shame when TO rulings have to intervene to decide matches but regardless of that fact K'Gen deserved his place just as much as RDF deserved his.

[Hallabaloo4]

Everyone deserves to be where they are to the extreme! except me ;D

[Fractals]

enough drama already.

i feel like im watching days of our lives with this tournament.

[Dave880]

I don't see the harm in what Repliica and RDF did to be honest. Especially since in the past this thread has been chaotic and full of insults against another through secret messages. Can't ignore that can we now =p. So sorry Spyder and Funky, they are just holding the fort down for Wedge, Rei-N, and I here ^-‘)b. So thank you Repliica and RDF <3 you guys <3 I hold nothing against what Statistic said but his argument is extremely flawed and all I did was provide support and information back towards him.

And funky how does spamming SF make things easier to for me =p. Its not exactly a easy win especially against opponents like Kgen and Spyder. On top of that, I haven't seen anyone else to replica this tactic so I don't see the problem... If many others aren't able to do it, then why is there so much hatred if only one person can? I know I can exceed at doing it better than others like Funky said but at the same time its 1 person out of like 100+. Also, throughout all my matches with Squalls, I’m constantly reminding myself to not get so dodge friendly in order to avoid that ARD. On top of that, beat fang gives them enough to get that brave pool they need. Beat Fang’s Speed and brave power out beats Sephiroth’s brave moves unless he is able to link it up with his combos. Also, don’t forget that low delay time Beat Fang has. I don’t think I need to pull up the numbers to compare SC and Beat fang side by side but I think its pretty obvious that Beat Fang beats SC in speed, delay, and brave damage (no Criticals or combos for Sephiroth). Instead of going head to head with a move like Beat fang, I decided to go long range with spacing and distance. That’s all there is to it. SF gives me the power to rid of SnL, put me in a safe position from getting Blocked, and pressure/frustrate the opponent. Squall’s Brave move > Seph hands down and I think its obvious as shown through the replays I have fought that there is the constant BEATFANG…. BEAT FANG…. BEAT FANG…. BEATFANG… Why aren’t we looking at that? Is it because it’s a close combat move that many enjoy and love to see? To see two people close next to each other to exchange one close brave move with another? A move that looks nice and cool for many of the fans? There are no excuses Funky just take what you have. You have your opinion and I have mine. No need to further discuss it because it won’t get anywhere. Like K’Genesis has said in his post, forget it and lets focus on Rag =p



I will state one thing though. K'Gen should have been very aware of the difficulties SF spam does to Squall. He did very will to cope with it in Match 2 but again he fell short. Dave was right when he said that certain characters would have been more than capable with countering SF spam but those many Squalls chose to... I guess prove that they could deal with it. After all the Squalls dropping like flies, it should have been quite obvious that a different road should have been taken. While I am definitely stubborn, if I see that something is nigh futile, I'll need to adapt to survive. Adaptation is key and people that could not adapt quick enough got the short end of the stick.

Definitely agree with what Funky said =p. EXdeath, Firion, and CoD are open to stop this tactic. I know for a fact Funky would use those three against me due to his hatred of Spamage.

Well this was one hell of an eventful tourney. http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n154/StupidAquarius/aldo.gif
It sure has been! It was all because of me too and many others who took this matter at hand to acknowledge it. It sure gave me a lot to laugh about =x And for everyone who thinks its just one button input… you forget about SC, Scintella, Heaven’s light, and Oblivion. Lets do this Pokefan ^-‘)b

[ShineThatLight]

Here here! I am ready for these finals already!
Grand Finale man! Seems like just yesterday Get Salty was rounding this corner too.

[Jirachi]

Yup!

Me and Dave should be able to finish our match tonight. I'm so excited about the conclusion, and for Ragnarok.

[Spyder]

Sorry but I have to correct Dave's analysis regarding the Sephiroth v. Squall matchup since it is misleading.

Sephiroth's SC does not lose out to BF in damage. If you look up the info on both of these character's attacks, SC takes off as much damage as BF. The base damage for both of those attacks is 40. When paired with Oblivion, the combo does 53 base damage together, which out damages one BF.

Second, what SC lacks in speed, it makes up for range. SC can interrupt Squall's entire aerial brave game. It's only disadvantage is that if it misses, Squall can counter with BF.

Third, SC has a tendency to link into Heaven's Light. Squall doesn't have any type of a glitch that will help him link BF with an HP attack.

No matter how you look at it. Squall loses out to Sephiroth's aerial game. For whatever reasons, you simply did not choose to explore that avenue.

-------------

Regarding the tournament, don't forget guys this has one of the biggest rosters yet. It's only understandable that it would last this long and be one heck of a nightmare for the TO's. So here's a shoutout to the guys who had to pull at their hairs organizing this tournament. You guys did a fine job. =3

[funkyman02]

And funky how does spamming SF make things easier to for me =p. Its not exactly a easy win especially against opponents like Kgen and Spyder. On top of that, I haven't seen anyone else to replica this tactic so I don't see the problem... If many others aren't able to do it, then why is there so much hatred if only one person can? I know I can exceed at doing it better than others like Funky said but at the same time its 1 person out of like 100+. Also, throughout all my matches with Squalls, I’m constantly reminding myself to not get so dodge friendly in order to avoid that ARD. On top of that, beat fang gives them enough to get that brave pool they need. Beat Fang’s Speed and brave power out beats Sephiroth’s brave moves unless he is able to link it up with his combos. Also, don’t forget that low delay time Beat Fang has. I don’t think I need to pull up the numbers to compare SC and Beat fang side by side but I think its pretty obvious that Beat Fang beats SC in speed, delay, and brave damage (no Criticals or combos for Sephiroth). Instead of going head to head with a move like Beat fang, I decided to go long range with spacing and distance. That’s all there is to it. SF gives me the power to rid of SnL, put me in a safe position from getting Blocked, and pressure/frustrate the opponent. Squall’s Brave move > Seph hands down and I think its obvious as shown through the replays I have fought that there is the constant BEATFANG…. BEAT FANG…. BEAT FANG…. BEATFANG… Why aren’t we looking at that? Is it because it’s a close combat move that many enjoy and love to see? To see two people close next to each other to exchange one close brave move with another? A move that looks nice and cool for many of the fans? There are no excuses Funky just take what you have. You have your opinion and I have mine. No need to further discuss it because it won’t get anywhere. Like K’Genesis has said in his post, forget it and lets focus on Rag =p

We definitely do have our differing opinions but I'd like to bring them to the table. So let's have fun while this tourney is still in it. :D

Your points are definitely taken. While it is true that Beat Fang was used heavily in the Squall matches (I'll use K'Gen's as the example) Heel Crush was also used to stop the S&L. I don't believe Mystic Flurry was used because of how open it leaves Squall. 2/3 brave moves ain't half bad seeing how we are limited to only three. You on the other hand used solely Shadow Flare and then used Sudden Cruelty once or twice? I can't say the same thing about you that I said for K'Gen. You stuck to playing the dash away game and using solely SF to take down K'Gen. You said you wanted to show za warudo how the game is unbalanced and I must say that is just a cop out. We know it. We've been through Get Salty which showed us this. So the only other explanation that I can think of is that it was just too good for you to pass up the SF spam (I know spam is probably getting overused but it is the perfect definition of your performance so forgive the overuse) and get the wins.

And if you're so scared about Beat Fang and it's power, then why didn't you stick with your main? I mean we all know you have a good Zidane and you fell back on him a few times so what's the big deal? In essence, what was your reasoning for picking Sephy? You want to show your skill with other characters? Now that is something I can acknowledge. The only skill in this tourney that you have demonstrated is that you know how to space yourself between you and you're opponent. I can't really tip my hat off to using the same move for endless minutes sapping the excitement from both your opponent and your audience. Forgive me if I have a shred of dignity left in me.

---

EDIT: I went back to match three of Dave (Sephy) v. K'Gen (Squall) and tried to count the amount of times the attacks were made. It was quite difficult so my numbers may be off a little but this is what I have. I made two categories for both Dave's Sephy and K'Gen's Squall.

Dave's Sephy

SF Usage: 90 times
Other: 24 times (I didn't even include the combos as one)

K'Gen's Squall

BF Usage: 33 times
Other: 53 times

While these may be slightly off, you can see how BF was actually used less than much of K'Gen's attacks while Dave on the other had had more than triple the times of SF usage.

[BerserkChip]

Sorry but I have to correct Dave's analysis regarding the Sephiroth v. Squall matchup since it is misleading.

Sephiroth's SC does not lose out to BF in damage. If you look up the info on both of these character's attacks, SC takes off as much damage as BF. The base damage for both of those attacks is 40. When paired with Oblivion, the combo does 53 base damage together, which out damages one BF.

Second, what SC lacks in speed, it makes up for range. SC can interrupt Squall's entire aerial brave game. It's only disadvantage is that if it misses, Squall can counter with BF.

Third, SC has a tendency to link into Heaven's Light. Squall doesn't have any type of a glitch that will help him link BF with an HP attack.

No matter how you look at it. Squall loses out to Sephiroth's aerial game. For whatever reasons, you simply did not choose to explore that avenue.

-------------

Regarding the tournament, don't forget guys this has one of the biggest rosters yet. It's only understandable that it would last this long and be one heck of a nightmare for the TO's. So here's a shoutout to the guys who had to pull at their hairs organizing this tournament. You guys did a fine job. =3

I didn't read the rest but I'm gonna have to half disagree with your comparison of SC to BF. In my experience online, BF nearly always does crit damage as long as sneak attack is equipped due to how the attack works. Now you could argue that, with Sephiroth, you can aim your dodge cancel to go behind the person and attempt to activate sneak attack that way, but there's a chance that you might dodge too far and miss, or take too long and the person can dodge out, or that it just plain won't activate in that way.

Having said that, you said that the base damage for SC-OB is 53, correct? What's the damage for BF after the second half of it is critical? If that is higher than 53, then BF is indeed the higher hitter. If it's lower, then I'll shut up.

[Wedge]

I didn't read the rest but I'm gonna have to half disagree with your comparison of SC to BF. In my experience online, BF nearly always does crit damage as long as sneak attack is equipped due to how the attack works. Now you could argue that, with Sephiroth, you can aim your dodge cancel to go behind the person and attempt to activate sneak attack that way, but there's a chance that you might dodge too far and miss, or take too long and the person can dodge out, or that it just plain won't activate in that way.

Having said that, you said that the base damage for SC-OB is 53, correct? What's the damage for BF after the second half of it is critical? If that is higher than 53, then BF is indeed the higher hitter. If it's lower, then I'll shut up.

Dave SCs > Oblivion to proc sneak every time almost flawlessly. Anyone can do it. >.>

[Spyder]

If we take second part of beat fang that does Sneak Attack damage, we have the 24 base damage.

If we take oblivion that hits with sneak attack it does 25. So the Sneak Attack criticals equal out in damage, since the criticals mostly do the 5x base damage.

Sephiroth does more damage not because of the criticals, but because of the start up of his SC, which gives the 28 base damage as apposed to Squall's beat fang start up, which does 15.


Edit: Links used, for the curious:
http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3949 - Squall's move analysis
http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3956 - Seph's move analysis

[Wedge]

If we take second part of beat fang that does Sneak Attack damage, we have the 24 base damage.

If we take oblivion that hits with sneak attack it does 25. So the Sneak Attack criticals equal out in damage, since the criticals mostly do the 5x base damage.

Sephiroth does more damage not because of the criticals, but because of the start up of his SC, which gives the 28 base damage as apposed to Squall's beat fang start up, which does 15.

Sorry to go off topic, but thank you ujhbn for these marvelous numbers and data so there can actually be discussion on this matters like this.

On topic I'd like to note for KAoS
Squall: ATK 167 DEF 177
Sephiroth: ATK 168 DEF 177

[Dave880]

When I mentioned about comparing SC to BF I was talking about speed and delay. A whiff on SC leads to a open attack from Beat Fang. A whiff on Beat fang is easily avoidable and can be dodged out. Spyder I'm aware of Sephiroth's range game why do you think I went for the dodge punishes against you and other squalls while you guys are dodging out of an attack. Just because I picked up Sephiroth just before the tournament started doesn't mean I don't know much about him ^-')b. My point is why would you go up against a Squall BF with a Seph SC? In the end, Squall will have a higher chance to be safe and punish will Seph has to pick and choice his attacks. Also, you guys didn't answer the rest of my post =/

EDIT: Heel crush is to get rid of SnL while my SF was to get rid of my SnL against Kgen. Its just that I was able to benefit on pressuring from a far distance while Heel crush was just to get rid of it with no other benefits. On top of that, why would a squall use a beat fang out of no where unless its to get rid of SnL? As seen in the videos, Beat fang was only used if a mistimed SF occured, punish on a Dodge, or whenever it was close ranged.

Funky, like I said I gave my side =p. We will have differences no matter what and there won't be a conclusion about it. If you want to talk about spam and how to solve it, there is a thread to talk about it from Haru =p

And why don't use Zidane? No motivation and didn't want to stick to the one something pony. Forgot your quote Funky =(

[funkyman02]

Since it deals with these tourney vids in specific, there is no "off-topicness" going on. We might as well get what we can out of this topic seeing how in the next day or so, the tourney will be over and this board abandoned.

And there is no solving to spamming and I think it's a tad funny you said that. People will spam to high hell and just because I say it sucks won't change your mind or the way you win matches. And that's exactly it. I'm not coming to the table to tell you to convert to whatever side. I'm just flat out stating how I think what has occurred is just... distasteful. And thankfully by voicing our opinions others have come to the table to say something instead of everyone keeping their mouths shut for whatever reason.

"Beat fang was only used if a mistimed SF occured, punish on a Dodge, or whenever it was close ranged."

And if he did not use it on those occasions, when could have K'Gen gotten one out? That makes no sense. You on the other hand used SF whenever possible, not to just stop S&L as seen through the 24 or so other moves you used in the course of about an hour (since your match was said to be that long).

"Also, you guys didn't answer the rest of my post =/"

And you didn't reply to much of mine either. /=

Someone on one of the YT videos also said something I'm curious about. "I thought the spamming experiment/point was already made with Sephy earlier in the tourney?" Did you not say something along these lines of you just dicking around with Sephy because you could? And now you used him again in full force? Intriguing to say the least.

[Dave880]

Like I said, Squall players should only be using Beat fangs whenever they are close to their opponents due to its range, punishing on whiff attacks/dodges, or in my case misused SF. Beat fang is Squall primary Brave tool to use in the air. Its fast and easy and it gets his brave. On occasion there is the Heel crush mind game that comes along to get opponents to block =p(Heel Crush Cancel gets rid of their SnL for them). You didn't see my last part of the post funky, I lost motivation to even play Zidane. Like I said Funky, SF helped me stay out of SnL timer to not get 200 brave wiped of my Brave pool. Isn't that pretty clear? Why should I wait till the timer is about to begin for SnL and instead have a constant fresh one that has restarted at 0. Again, I'm just 1 out of 100+ people funky and yet there has not been anyone else to reach this far with this tactic yet. Will this happen? Probably or not who knows. Most likely it will not happen again. I lucked out by getting Squalls against my match up. If I had anyone else, this would have most likely changed everything. If I lost against Kgen, results will be like WOOOOO YES SPAM KING WENT down. If I won, well... we see it now =p

EDIT: Funky do I care what people say in youtube lol? What full force yo? I think even KGenesis knows how much motivation I have lost during the first match for this tournament. Come on you know me better by now. Like I said, I applaud everyone who has recognize this and turn it into this discussion. Without people like you, this would have not gotten the recognition it should have deserved! Entertaining at its finest.

[Hollowed]

People are complaining about Shadow Flare spam, but in my opinion that's not the main problem. It can be countered by the character in question or by counterpicking. I think the big problem is characters who can take advantage of Sneak Attack.

So onto dissecting Shadow Flare spam. Squall's Heel Crush protects him from it well. It lasts a while and is dodge cancelable, during which time it also produces Magic Block. Attacks can be used out of a dodge, meaning Squall theoretically use another and therefore cannot be dodge punished by Low Ranged attacks (Shadow Flare). In practice, Squall is not invulnerable because players make mistakes, but it certainly lowers his odds of being dodge punished by SF dramatically.

Case in point, Dave used SF primarily in match 3 but it only hit 4-5 times. I'll get right into why Dave did this. Sudden Cruelty has similar startup to Beat Fang. However, Sudden Cruelty has much longer cooldown meaning it can actually be dodged and punished with Beat Fang. To put it in perspective, Beat Fang can be dodged out of after approximately 1 second and can put up a block after 2 seconds. Sudden Cruelty can be dodged out of after 2 seconds and put up a block after 3 seconds. Shadow Flare counteracts Sudden Cruelty's glaring weakness by pressuring the opponent into action so the Sephiroth player can fight reactively--it creates openings for Sephiroth to land attacks. Sephiroth also has Scintilla to protect his dodges. However, Sudden Cruelty is with other advantages: long reach and combos into Oblivion for full critical hits.

This leads me to the problem I have with KAoS: Sneak Attack. It skews damage output in favor of characters whom proc it during certain attacks. After all, criticals do upward of 5x damage. The balance of damage is off and many have noted the first Break often decides the match, but what can be done about it?

[Dave880]

^Now that was very informative. Thanks hollowed <3

[funkyman02]

I did miss that part about motivation so I do apologize. However, motivation lost or not, you and K'Gen are pretty tight no? Duked it out in the past and had some jolly good times, correct? If not, I apologize for assuming this much but if so why not give a buddy what he deserves? I highly doubt he would have went with Terra had you gone with Zidane. I think even if you lost all the motivation you had, you would at least respect K'Gen and use you main against his since I do believe in the Zidane-Squall match up you would still have the upper hand. I guess I assumed you would respect K'Gen enough to give it your all. Although perhaps using SF till death do you part was your all.

I thought as much that you would say something along the lines of "I don't care" as I;m sure you don't. I mean fuck the people and do whatever the hell you want! You go Glen Coco. I simply was saying that what he brought up was what I was thinking as well. And I don't know jack shit about you like you don't about me. I mean hell I only know you through a video game for Pete's sake. :P

[Dave880]

^Exactly, sorry for Kgen but I just wasn't in the mood to go all out. Like Rep said earlier, I was talking/watching NBA conference Finals (Go boston ^-')b), and eating. It wasn't really a all out effort =/

[Kite]

^thats understandable(other than the fact that you were rooting for boston like a faggot)

Watching conference finals is like watching your baby take its first steps

[Statistic]

I would still call Dave a cheap spammer even if KGen won, regardless of the end scenario whether KGen won or not, in the end, Dave is still a SF spamming Nazi. Ii's also funny to me that it seems in every Squall match-up you were put against you "lost" motivation in using your main Zidane, I wonder why this is? You have the upper hand with Zidane in the end anyways, do you have to use Sephiroth and his SF spamming to prove something? What was it? I'd love to know your reasonings because it seems to me it wasn't a loss of motivation, it was to prove something. What? I have no idea, could you answer that for me?

[Dave880]

because SF spam makes people like you piss off. That pleases me =)

[funkyman02]

Hey soul sister.

[Statistic]

because SF spam makes people like you piss off. That pleases me =)

So it wasn't a loss in motivation for using your main, you just like to please yourself with using cheap tricks. You do not care how you win, as long as you win. It's all you care about Dave. Really, the Forum is better off without you. ^^

By the way, you have a pretty damn big ego, hopefully that will get crushed soon.

[Dave880]

^ What ego...? I laughed pretty hard

[Kite]

No reason to go that far really >.>

[Dave880]

Statistic is just trolling imo. How is that post informative?

[Slayer0]

So it wasn't a loss in motivation for using your main, you just like to please yourself with using cheap tricks. You do not care how you win, as long as you win. It's all you care about Dave. Really, the Forum is better off without you. ^^

By the way, you have a pretty damn big ego, hopefully that will get crushed soon.

It's a tournament. You play to win, not to play fair.

Get over it.

[RDFMASTER]

http://dissidiaforums.com/showpost.php?p=140830&postcount=119

Dam, 1 hour Laggyless match xD

Dave880 sure you love to play LONG MATCHES :P

[Jirachi]

Actually that replay won't be uploaded since through some miracle both me and Dave neglected to save it. It would've been kinda boring anyways.

[RDFMASTER]

Actually that replay won't be uploaded since through some miracle both me and Dave neglected to save it. It would've been kinda boring anyways.

The game limit the replays to 30 minutes or 1024MB. If the replay is longer than 30 minutes or the size is over 1024MB then it can't be saved.

You can win this pokefan ;)

[ShineThatLight]

Sorry but I giggled like a little school girl when I saw Dave won the first set, not that I want you to lose Pokefan, but I do want Dave to win ;D

Goodluck to both of you, the tension must be building!

[Jirachi]

Seeing as how Dave winning = Lakers losing I'll be ever vigilant to win the second set.

I shall do everything in my power to make Dave have as hard a time as possible even IF I end up losing.

[tw1g007]

I am so proud of the hardwork being put into this pokefan.

I hope to see you and members of KotD on irc tomorrow (well later today technically) for a little chat.

[Wedge]

lolwut Squall Dave? XD

[HYNE]

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/Hyne/dave880.png

Sup Dave.

[Dave880]

lolwut Squall Dave? XD

What!

And to Hyne lol. The addition of the SF was a nice touch =p

[Armoxus]

Thank god this is over. It brought more drama than anything. And I don't mean the people complaining about spam, moreso meant it about you guys, but meh.

Hopefully we can get another great tourney going that won't last almost 3 months.

[Haruhiist]

TBH, I agree with Slayer. In a tournament, anything goes.

But can't wait to see the finals matches : P

[Armoxus]

I guess. Honestly, if pissing people off turns you on, I need to shoot you. Those kinds of people are normally asshats anyway from my experience :p

[ShineThatLight]

Admittedly it is reaaaally funny to watch people get butthurt about spamming, but then not be able to do a single thing about it.

[Armoxus]

Not really. Actually, it was rather stupid

[Veysey]

Admittedly it is reaaaally funny to watch people get butthurt about spamming, but then not be able to do a single thing about it.

Warning: Veysey rant dead ahead.

But that's the kicker, they CAN do something about it ... it's just ... I don't know ... they're too lazy? Want to take the easy route? I'm not sure, but instead of practicing, getting better, working on a solution, they seem happier complaining about it and ... wishing it would go away?

I have to be completely honest here, everyone who's been anti-spam confuses the hell out of me. I've tried to understand, but I just don't get it. You're all in a tournament atmosphere where people are going to bring their most reliable tactics to the table in order to prove that their tactics are superior to all others. What do you care what others are doing so long as you're able to prove that your methods are superior? And if your methods AREN'T superior, then how in the world does that put you in a position to realistically complain about the tactics your opponent employed? They defeated you and your techniques which says that they're right and you're wrong - you need to improve on something. Sure, there are exceptions like EX Countering etc, but those bannings usually get a staggeringly large number of supporters since it's obviously broken and there is data to support the claim.

Are you all playing a different game? Do you not see that Daves "spamming" DOES take a good deal of skill? The opponent closes the gap and Dave certainly doesn't falter. He still plays a very capable game. How is say SF spam any different from something like WWF? You need to space your character correctly before using it, you can realistically only use it in certain situations, and it's working as a pressure/setup tool for other moves. It's not like someone can enter into a match with an experienced opponent and just spam either of those moves and expect to win ... not without intimate knowledge of the spacing required and any moves that can benefit from the attack landing. They'd also need to know what moves can be linked from what distances. They'd need great matchup knowledge so they know what answers the opponent actually has to their tactic ... I just don't know. I can't understand why you're all so deadset against it. I certianly can't do what Dave does ... and if you think you can, beat him at his own game then. Show him his ways are flawed. FORCE him to change his tactics.

Now maybe I'm just some little scrub who doesn't have a clue, but you know what I see when I watch those "spamfests"? A challenge. Something to encourage me to push harder. I want to get better so I can eventually take my little Jecht and face off against Daves spam and see what solutions I can find. It's the same with anyone though. Funky, Ehx, Wedge, RDF, K'Gen, Spyder, EVA, the list goes on and on and on - it doesn't matter how they play, the fact is, they all have something interesting and challenging to bring to the table and I want to face off against it. It doesn't matter how seemingly impossible it is, I still want to try. And anyone who knows me well, knows that you can knock me down rather easily, but you'll be hard pressed to keep me down - because I enjoy the battle most when I don't have a chance. I'll just say it, I live for the fight, not the result.

Maybe some of you need to take a step back and ask yourselves a question - why are you playing in tournaments? Is it to win? Is it to face against the best of the best? Is it to prove something that you've discovered? They're all fine reasons, but whatever your reason is, I feel that if you aren't accomplishing your goals, it's your fault, not your opponents... Take time to assess what YOU need to do to accomplish your goals. If learning to overcome Daves spam is something that stands in your way, please, for your own sake, stop complaining and start being proactive about it. You'll get results much much faster that way.

Man, really went off on a tangent there... sorry everyone. Seriously though, this whole anti-spam thing confuses the hell outta me =/




tl;dr: Spam spam spam ... I don't see the problem with it?

[Dave880]

^That was fucking beautiful. Have babies with me Veysey <3

EDIT: There was no SF spam after match 1 =(. Squall baby just for you Statistic <3

[RDFMASTER]

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/Hyne/dave880.png

Sup Dave.

Hey Dave, we got a Winner ;)

[ShineThatLight]

See.. Veysey is very good with words. Really though, a lot of that was the exact point I was trying to convey. If you don't like it.. Do something about it. Its not like SF spam (or any kind of spam) is unbeatable, don't get all angry about it. Don't stand so static, play outside your comfort zone and adapt. How many people that fought Dave went back and looked at the replays to see what the opponent did wrong? Because a lot of what I saw was K`Gen playing the same way Spyder did.. Didn't really work out well for either of them aye? Why is no one learning from their losses? Why is everyone expecting the opponent to dumb themselves down so they can stand a chance? Also, the golden question, how the hell is SF spam different than any other kind of spam? No one forced Dave's opponents to play how they did, or choose the characters they chose. If I had fought Dave, and seen that he had torn up every Squall thus far.. I don't think I would have chose Squall? There is no sense trying to abide by some sense of honor in these things. Dave is doing very well in this tourny, and I for one don't care how 'not entertaining' it is. If Dave wanted to entertain people he'd take up stripping.
I want people here to learn from their mistakes instead of asking Dave to 'play fair'. Mostly because there is nothing unfair about what he is doing. When I fought Dave last I didn't think his Sephy was even that hot (although he was better at pulling of SC -> Heaven's Light than I imagined possible) I sure as hell didn't go 'zomg why j00 spam shadow flare so good?'

[Armoxus]

Spam is disgusting.

See, you don't whether I meant the food or the tactic!

HA HA HA HA HA...........Damn, I killed it. Still, my above statement stands. Sure I could play with it and it's not like I'm going to RAGE quit out or something. (Lol at all the losers trying to defend it.) It is a legitimate tactic, but it's still disgusting and that's all that matters IMO.

[Dave880]

See.. Veysey is very good with words. Really though, a lot of that was the exact point I was trying to convey. If you don't like it.. Do something about it. Its not like SF spam (or any kind of spam) is unbeatable, don't get all angry about it. Don't stand so static, play outside your comfort zone and adapt. How many people that fought Dave went back and looked at the replays to see what the opponent did wrong? Because a lot of what I saw was K`Gen playing the same way Spyder did.. Didn't really work out well for either of them aye? Why is no one learning from their losses? Why is everyone expecting the opponent to dumb themselves down so they can stand a chance? Also, the golden question, how the hell is SF spam different than any other kind of spam? No one forced Dave's opponents to play how they did, or choose the characters they chose. If I had fought Dave, and seen that he had torn up every Squall thus far.. I don't think I would have chose Squall? There is no sense trying to abide by some sense of honor in these things. Dave is doing very well in this tourny, and I for one don't care how 'not entertaining' it is. If Dave wanted to entertain people he'd take up stripping.
I want people here to learn from their mistakes instead of asking Dave to 'play fair'. Mostly because there is nothing unfair about what he is doing. When I fought Dave last I didn't think his Sephy was even that hot (although he was better at pulling of SC -> Heaven's Light than I imagined possible) I sure as hell didn't go 'zomg why j00 spam shadow flare so good?'

You saw me stripping for you at your party =( Anyways great read ^-')b

[Statistic]

Spam is disgusting.

See, you don't whether I meant the food or the tactic!

HA HA HA HA HA...........Damn, I killed it. Still, my above statement stands. Sure I could play with it and it's not like I'm going to RAGE quit out or something. (Lol at all the losers trying to defend it.) It is a legitimate tactic, but it's still disgusting and that's all that matters IMO.I still stand on this.^
Also saying people whoa re bitching about it that do nothing to counter it and do nothing but bitch about, is not entirely true, sure I bitch about it, but I am also going to be looking for a method that counters it. So don't speak too soon without any real proof that we are in fact not doing a thing about it. Because I am at least, I will find a way to counter it using Squall. But that does not mean I do not have the right to openly express my opinions on this matter. Also I apologize for the flaming I did yesterday, that was unnecessary of me and I realize how bad that looked. But I do not leave my spot on standing up for my own opinion on this. I will always find spamming cheap and disgusting, even in a tourney, I stand on the fact that tourneys are in fact meant to be won and viewed on getting that win, but disrespecting your opponent with a cheap tactic such as spamming takes things a little too far. Win or lose using spam I will not respect the player doing so and outside of a tourney, I will not face that opponent, for obvious reasons. No, this is not directed at you Dave, this goes for all spammers out there, ANYONE who spams.

[ShineThatLight]

Spam is disgusting.

See, you don't whether I meant the food or the tactic!

HA HA HA HA HA...........Damn, I killed it. Still, my above statement stands. Sure I could play with it and it's not like I'm going to RAGE quit out or something. (Lol at all the losers trying to defend it.) It is a legitimate tactic, but it's still disgusting and that's all that matters IMO.

Wait.. you're kidding right? You just admitted it was a legitimate tactic! No one is forcing you to play with spam, and no one is saying spam is even the best tactic. The arguments that I see here are that;

-Spam is not honorable

-Spam is broken

and

-Spam isn't broken, Dave's opponents just aren't doing anything to stop it effectively.

So cut it out with this fake sense of honor, Armoxus every time I played your Bartz you spam Holy to no end. Don't even pretend you are any better than this. Spam is spam and after all 'it's still disgusting and that's all that matters' right? Your hypocrisy makes my innards burn. Why is there such a double standard to this? Why can people spam Heel Crush to get rid of Snooze and Lose but Dave can't spam SF to do the same? Just because it has a better chance of hitting? (note, I am not attacking any of the Squall players, but it was a ready example)

For you Armoxus: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define:legitimate&btnG=Search

[Armoxus]

See.. Veysey is very good with words. Really though, a lot of that was the exact point I was trying to convey. If you don't like it.. Do something about it. Its not like SF spam (or any kind of spam) is unbeatable, don't get all angry about it. Don't stand so static, play outside your comfort zone and adapt. How many people that fought Dave went back and looked at the replays to see what the opponent did wrong? Because a lot of what I saw was K`Gen playing the same way Spyder did.. Didn't really work out well for either of them aye? Why is no one learning from their losses? Why is everyone expecting the opponent to dumb themselves down so they can stand a chance? Also, the golden question, how the hell is SF spam different than any other kind of spam? No one forced Dave's opponents to play how they did, or choose the characters they chose. If I had fought Dave, and seen that he had torn up every Squall thus far.. I don't think I would have chose Squall? There is no sense trying to abide by some sense of honor in these things. Dave is doing very well in this tourny, and I for one don't care how 'not entertaining' it is. If Dave wanted to entertain people he'd take up stripping.
I want people here to learn from their mistakes instead of asking Dave to 'play fair'. Mostly because there is nothing unfair about what he is doing. When I fought Dave last I didn't think his Sephy was even that hot (although he was better at pulling of SC -> Heaven's Light than I imagined possible) I sure as hell didn't go 'zomg why j00 spam shadow flare so good?'

Again bud, you are ASSUMING people aren't doing these things. I do this constantly, do I end up winning against it? Hell no. I actually don't even know why I bother watching replays anymore, I don't get any better then the garbage I already am.

Not all of us can magically become better or change up our game like you "pros" can. What I bet WOULD do that though, is if these said pros actually got together and took requests from people and evaluated them. Actually, it doesn't even need to be pros. We need more people who are willing to be dedicated to helping the community become better and stronger overall so that we don't just have the same Top 8 people everytime. (I realize Pokefan is the underdog, but the rest are pretty much the same.)

Last note. If I recall correctly, I do remember a certain person becoming irritated when he lost to a certain someone using Squall. Not trying to hold that against you or anything, but have YOU done anything to get past what this particular Squall player was doing? Just thought I'd ask for fun :D.
=== Double post was automatically merged. ===

Wait.. you're kidding right? You just admitted it was a legitimate tactic! No one is forcing you to play with spam, and no one is saying spam is even the best tactic. The arguments that I see here are that;

-Spam is not honorable

-Spam is broken

and

-Spam isn't broken, Dave's opponents just aren't doing anything to stop it effectively.

So cut it out with this fake sense of honor, Armoxus every time I played your Bartz you spam Holy to no end. Don't even pretend you are any better than this. Spam is spam and after all 'it's still disgusting and that's all that matters' right? Your hypocrisy makes my innards burn. Why is there such a double standard to this? Why can people spam Heel Crush to get rid of Snooze and Lose but Dave can't spam SF to do the same? Just because it has a better chance of hitting? (note, I am not attacking any of the Squall players, but it was a ready example)

For you Armoxus: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define:legitimate&btnG=Search
The last time I played you with Bartz was like in November when i had just gotten my PS3, also, answer my earlier question.

You go ahead and get your panties in a twist, I'm going to workout. PM me if you want to continue because someone's gonna come along and end this anyway.

[ShineThatLight]

Statistic, you spam too, I bet anything you do. I don't see why you think you are above this..

@Dave, I meant professionally!

[Statistic]

Statistic, you spam too, I bet anything you do. I don't see why you think you are above this..

@Dave, I meant professionally!

Every player spams to a degree, we only have an arsenal of 3 attacks. What I'm irritated with is the spam of 1 attack constantly out of those 3 attacks, he uses it 3x over any other attack on his arsenal, dashing around continually using that same attack. There's a difference, trust me.

[ShineThatLight]

Armoxus, did you fight Dave? I must have missed that replay. My bad, I deeply apologize because you are clearly the one person that went back, studied what others did wrong, adapted your play style then beat Dave! Woo! Long hail Armoxus! Slayer of the Big Bad!

All sarcasm aside, I can assume you glanced at that and didn't realize it was directed at people fighting Dave. You must have also missed the part that made me safe to assume that because I didn't see anything change between the first Squall and the last Squall.

Yes I was irritated when I lost to RDF, I didn't bitch and complain though, I took my loss and I have learned from it, and I do realize what I did wrong and I feel that if I were to fight him again, I would come out on top. I didn't call what he did 'cheap' I simply said that I wasn't prepared for that tactic, which was completely true. I also severely underestimated RDF's Squall, which won't happen again. So to answer your question; yes.

I doubt you do anything different now ^^b feel free to prove me wrong though, I'll be looking at your Youtube page now until I find something that counters my (i still believe, valid) point.
=== Double post was automatically merged. ===

Every player spams to a degree, we only have an arsenal of 3 attacks. What I'm irritated with is the spam of 1 attack constantly out of those 3 attacks, he uses it 3x over any other attack on his arsenal, dashing around continually using that same attack. There's a difference, trust me.

Why should that matter? He did what was safe? He was playing smart, to do otherwise would have been reckless. Have you ever seen a Mage character fight a Melee character? Why would someone with long range capabilities give those up so he can go do something stupid? That is like Terra fighting Jecht with only Blizzard Combo because it is more in his comfort zone, sure it would be nice if they did that, but I for one don't think we'd see it.

[Kite]

but if the use of the other 2 moves are going to get you punished in the end, wth are you supposed to do?

EDIT: ninja'd

[funkyman02]

I find it pretty funny that I'm one of the more docile ones in this spam discussion right now. Guys, I've lost my edge. Fuuuuuck.

[Statistic]

Because Sephiroth is not a Mage. And why should it matter? Because it's one attack out of his whole 3 move arsenal, it irritates me. You have your opinions and I have mine. I will always stand on my opinions regardless if this whole forum disagreed.

I will always find that tactic and style of play disrespectful, boring, and simply will not face it outside of tourney play. If you use it during a tourney against me I will either drop out right then and there as I'd rather be a drop out then get dropped out by some spammer disrespecting me by even using it. OR I'd give it my all and feel unsatisfied with it and attempt at finding a counter against it, but honestly, finding a counter against spam is pretty difficult to do.

[ShineThatLight]

Don't worry Funky! I have a +12 Blacksmith skill, I'll have you back in fighting shape in no time!

On a side note, I would like someone to provide 3 good reasons as to why a character with range capabilities would willingly go into close combat when they are clearly in a higher risk environment (bonus points if this can apply to characters that aren't Sephy and Squall as well). If anyone can give me these reasons I will swiftly withdraw myself from this debate.

In short, why should we play in your comfort zone when we can force you to play in ours? If it takes the spam of moves to cripple you, I don't see what is stopping us. Hell, I spam Rise Wave against Firion because he can't do anything about it, does that make me a bad person?

[Ghurdrich]

I would have to agree that spamming is a legitimate tactic. And the 'Do anything to win' mentality is a good one...

If we were playing for money.
But we're not. (I say 'we' like I participated >.<) So what are we playing for? Data? Do we need Data on spam? Probably not. It's pretty easy to analyze. Respect? Do you get respect by spamming? I sincerely doubt it. Everyone seems to be invoking 'Do anything you can to win in a tournament' and that's great, I can agree to that, if there were stakes involved. However, there really isn't, especially when it comes to someone like Dave, whom everyone already respects, and we already know he's good at the game. I guess you could turn my logic around on me and say that since we already know he's good at the game, he doesn't have anything to prove, but I really think he still does. Someone in his position is being watched by the crowd to see what sort of new things he can pull out against his opponent. Some new combo or new gimmick, that's what's expected of him. I think the major shocker is that he didn't pull out anything like that. He pulled out spam. I'm entirely sure he didn't have to spam, like I said, he's pretty good at this game. To me, I might take it as a sign that maybe he's given up? I'm not trying to suggest anything, but if I'm mad about something, it's that he got lazy and didn't bother to try something new.

tl;dr: Are you really mad about so-called 'cheap tactics'? Or are you mad that Dave got lazy for a round and pumped out a boring replay?

(I'd like to take this opportunity to note that I haven't actually been keeping up with this tourney, and I haven't watched the replay in question. Haven't had the time. So feel free to debunk anything I say based on that.)

[ShineThatLight]

Because Sephiroth is not a Mage. And why should it matter? Because it's one attack out of his whole 3 move arsenal, it irritates me. You have your opinions and I have mine. I will always stand on my opinions regardless if this whole forum disagreed.

I will always find that tactic and style of play disrespectful, boring, and simply will not face it outside of tourney play. If you use it during a tourney against me I will either drop out right then and there as I'd rather be a drop out then get dropped out by some spammer disrespecting me by even using it. OR I'd give it my all and feel unsatisfied with it and attempt at finding a counter against it, but honestly, finding a counter against spam is pretty difficult to do.

In order of your points.. Sephiroth may not be a mage, but he does have the capability to attack from a distance where it is safe, why shouldn't he? The bolded quote is what bothers me the most about your posts. Most of the people here are looking at this with VERY little bias, but you want people to change their entire premise because it 'irritates you'. Man up.

You may find this disrespectful and boring, but it looks like winning and pressure to me. Dropping out of a tourny because someone 'uses that move too much!' is pathetic. I would be much happier if you took the other routes and found a way around it. When your character is as versatile as Squall, it isn't terribly hard to find a way around spam, at least to the degree you get them to stop spamming. I can think of a handful of ways right now that I didn't see tried in this tourny that I can attest to working in specifically vs Dave's Sephy. If you can't even try, and when you do try you get to the point of giving up, it just means you aren't trying hard enough. You need to put this all in perspective. There are ways around this, but apparently you can't see them.

Btw I was using versatile as in he isn't nearly as confined to one realm of play like a Firion to the ground or a Zidane to the air.

[funkyman02]

Ghurdrich, fantastic point and you put many things in perspective.

If there was say, some monetary prize to be won here, this discussion probably would not have even been brought up. He'll I'd even do anything to win some easy cash. But the fact of the matter is that all we receive is a title and replays to see how we obtained said title. What's a title worth? It's only worth recognition amongst the people in your community. Dave may obtain the title in the tourney but it only recognizes him as a boring player who dishes out spam to win his battles. The whole "I don't care what people think" attitude is cute but in all actuality, you do. You would not be trying to get a title if you didn't care what others thought. You wouldn't be trying to gain some renown for this little community and that will be seen by posting your little banner in your signature.

What am I disappointed about? Basically what GhurGhur covered. Dave devouted to wasting our time with pumping out replays of him dicking around with his opponents. While I completely understand that they were all Squalls and even getting hit over the head with a house of spam didn't teach them their lesson, it's the finals and he's still dicking around. If you lost motivation for the tourney, you should have just gave K'Gen the wins but seeing how you are still participating, and still dicking around... Well let's just say you acquired quite the reputation for this little community. While people will defend you with passion, you've surely turned off many others. I'm sure you still "don't care" but hey, it is what it surely is.

[ShineThatLight]

I would like to mention that there is money at stake in this tourny -_-
50$ iirc?

[Wedge]

Wow I missed so much dammit.

To catch up:
<3 to Shiny for simply existing.
<3 to Veysey for always making sense.
<3 to Funks for not being teh asshat this time around :3

[funkyman02]

Oh I guess there was. I went back to the opening topic but there is no statement of what the prize is. D:

And when I say money, I mean money enough for me to like at least buy a new game with. $50 is chump change right now. xD

[Statistic]

In order of your points.. Sephiroth may not be a mage, but he does have the capability to attack from a distance where it is safe, why shouldn't he? The bolded quote is what bothers me the most about your posts. Most of the people here are looking at this with VERY little bias, but you want people to change their entire premise because it 'irritates you'. Man up.

You may find this disrespectful and boring, but it looks like winning and pressure to me. Dropping out of a tourny because someone 'uses that move too much!' is pathetic. I would be much happier if you took the other routes and found a way around it. When your character is as versatile as Squall, it isn't terribly hard to find a way around spam, at least to the degree you get them to stop spamming. I can think of a handful of ways right now that I didn't see tried in this tourny that I can attest to working in specifically vs Dave's Sephy. If you can't even try, and when you do try you get to the point of giving up, it just means you aren't trying hard enough. You need to put this all in perspective. There are ways around this, but apparently you can't see them.

Btw I was using versatile as in he isn't nearly as confined to one realm of play like a Firion to the ground or a Zidane to the air.

Again, you quickly jump to a conclusion that I expect people to change there opinion just because it irritates me, I never once said for people to change there opinion and agree with me, I'm putting my opinion out there, as many others should do as well. Regardless if you agree or disagree with me, a forum is meant to have debates, that is what I am doing. So don't turn around and put words in my mouth that I never said.

[ShineThatLight]

<3 Wedge for having an awesome name and being a generally good guy ^^b

<3 Shine for making Ghurdrich and Funky look silly :D

[funkyman02]

<3 Wedge for... Shit I ran out of ideas.

</3 for Shine making me look silly even though I am a silly goose.

[ShineThatLight]

Okay Statistic, fair enough. I respect that you find spam to be a disgusting tactic. Can you accept that Dave may be being boring but until there is a better option he has no competitive reason to change his tactic, and can you promise me you will keep trying until you find a way to beat it?

On that note, to reinforce my point, when Dave lost with Sephy he did change characters. He didn't stand there and spam more. This tactic is beatable. I want people to acknowledge that.
=== Double post was automatically merged. ===
Also, <3 Veysey because I love his never give up attitude.

[Wedge]

<3 Wedge for... Shit I ran out of ideas.

</3 for Shine making me look silly even though I am a silly goose.

You need no reasons to less than three me. It comes natural.

Sorry for derailing the topicz :P

EDIT:

<3 to Dave for using Squall

[funkyman02]

Okay Statistic, fair enough. I respect that you find spam to be a disgusting tactic. Can you accept that Dave may be being boring but until there is a better option he has no competitive reason to change his tactic, and can you promise me you will keep trying until you find a way to beat it?

On that note, to reinforce my point, when Dave lost with Sephy he did change characters. He didn't stand there and spam more. This tactic is beatable. I want people to acknowledge that.
Also, <3 Veysey because I love his never give up attitude.

I just want it to be known that I also support this. His spam was definitely beatable and I agree full-heartedly with the characters mentioned by Dave and others that would have eliminated the spamfest.

[Nemo]

I already said this over a month back in the Spam discussion thread. If the tactic is beatable (and it is), there's nothing wrong with it. If it 100% isnt, then we'd have a problem. That's all there is to it.

Also, I was the first to experience Dave's Sephy in like the first match of the tourny, so I has an excuse for my lack of experience and using Squally. But yea, then loads of Squalls came in with the same result xD.

[Armoxus]

Armoxus, did you fight Dave? I must have missed that replay. My bad, I deeply apologize because you are clearly the one person that went back, studied what others did wrong, adapted your play style then beat Dave! Woo! Long hail Armoxus! Slayer of the Big Bad!

All sarcasm aside, I can assume you glanced at that and didn't realize it was directed at people fighting Dave. You must have also missed the part that made me safe to assume that because I didn't see anything change between the first Squall and the last Squall.

Yes I was irritated when I lost to RDF, I didn't bitch and complain though, I took my loss and I have learned from it, and I do realize what I did wrong and I feel that if I were to fight him again, I would come out on top. I didn't call what he did 'cheap' I simply said that I wasn't prepared for that tactic, which was completely true. I also severely underestimated RDF's Squall, which won't happen again. So to answer your question; yes.

I doubt you do anything different now ^^b feel free to prove me wrong though, I'll be looking at your Youtube page now until I find something that counters my (i still believe, valid) point.
=== Double post was automatically merged. ===


Why should that matter? He did what was safe? He was playing smart, to do otherwise would have been reckless. Have you ever seen a Mage character fight a Melee character? Why would someone with long range capabilities give those up so he can go do something stupid? That is like Terra fighting Jecht with only Blizzard Combo because it is more in his comfort zone, sure it would be nice if they did that, but I for one don't think we'd see it.

When did I ever mention I played and beat Dave? Oh yeah, I didn't. I did manage to beat him once, but he was using Garland. Oh, and there is that excuse that some of you guys use: "It was friendlies and this guy never tries in friendlies." Makes me laugh out loud when I hear that. (I'm not knocking you Dave, it was just an example)

Also, I haven't uploaded my youtube page inforever, but if you honestly want to see change, you can come play me if you want. Win or lose, I can and will prove to you I have changed.

I also do remember some hate comments about RDF come out of your mouth specifically the next day after he beat you and the vids were uploaded, but those don't need to be mentioned. And before you object saying you never said them, trust me, you did because I remember. How do I remember it? Because I said to myself, "I didn't know Shine could get so emotional."

[K´Genesis]

Hmm...alright. Since my name(alias, whatever) has been mentioned more than once to prove a point or another, I feel like I should say this:

I chose Squall out of free will.
Could I have chosen Firion to specifically counter SF spam and change the game´s panorama? Yes, I think I play a decent enough Firion to do that.
But I wanted to test myself and find ways around it. Call me stubborn, even stupid, if you want to. Although I did pick Terra for the second match, it was more of a "let me take a break from 1h chasing you" choice than a change of pace.
But guess what...I found them. I just got unlucky enough to not be able to take them and claim one or two victories. That´s enough for me, at least. If I can´t have "epic", let me have "new perspectives". That´s all.

I´m saying this because I´m seeing people assume things without even considering what I was shooting for. My point of view was very close to what Ghurdy described and, going back to what Veysey beautifully said, that´s my reasoning for playing this game. That´s my motivation. I would´ve loved to have a second chance against Dave´s Zidane, because I know that there´s where his true strength lies. But Dave´s motivations weren´t the same as mine. Actually, it makes me a little bit sad to know that but, hey, can you blame him?

So, to sum it up, it was not about "honor", not about "stubborness", not even about "winning". I just wanted matches like the one I had with Spyder or even against Dave in the WBs. Not asking you guys to fill in my shoes, just don´t assume that I´m a moron.
Thanks, Ghur, for speaking my mind better than I ever could. <3 you.

[Statistic]

Okay Statistic, fair enough. I respect that you find spam to be a disgusting tactic. Can you accept that Dave may be being boring but until there is a better option he has no competitive reason to change his tactic, and can you promise me you will keep trying until you find a way to beat it?

On that note, to reinforce my point, when Dave lost with Sephy he did change characters. He didn't stand there and spam more. This tactic is beatable. I want people to acknowledge that.
=== Double post was automatically merged. ===
Also, <3 Veysey because I love his never give up attitude.

Of course I'll be finding a tactic to beat it. x3

[ShineThatLight]

When did I ever mention I played and beat Dave? Oh yeah, I didn't. I did manage to beat him once, but he was using Garland. Oh, and there is that excuse that some of you guys use: "It was friendlies and this guy never tries in friendlies." Makes me laugh out loud when I hear that. (I'm not knocking you Dave, it was just an example)

Also, I haven't uploaded my youtube page inforever, but if you honestly want to see change, you can come play me if you want. Win or lose, I can and will prove to you I have changed.

I also do remember some hate comments about RDF come out of your mouth specifically the next day after he beat you and the vids were uploaded, but those don't need to be mentioned. And before you object saying you never said them, trust me, you did because I remember. How do I remember it? Because I said to myself, "I didn't know Shine could get so emotional."




*woooooooosh*
That? Oh yeah, the sound of my jokes going over your head.. once again. You do realize that entire section of the message you quoted & bolded was directed at people that fought Dave in this tourny (this was clearly prefaced by the text 'How many people that fought Dave...'). Yes, I probably did say something harsh about RDF too, many people could attest to that I am sure. But were they misplaced? Probably. Did I call his tactics cheap? No, but I did say they were annoying which is open to interpretation. At the end of the day did I change my playstyle to combat the flaws I saw after reviewing the replay? You bet your sweet ass I did.

Also, can't fight you atm sorry. Lost access to the ps3. When I have it again I will hit you up.

@Statistic; glad to hear, I expect to see you in the next tourny then ^^b don't you dare forfeit your matches either.

@KGen; did you ask Dave to fight his Zidane? :/ you should have if you didn't. If Dave refused I should yell at him, ya know, with my CAPSLOCK POWAH :D

[Statistic]

Yup, I'll be in Ragnarok, hopefully I at least do somewhat well! Suck to get eliminated 1st round. x3

[ShineThatLight]

Can't get eliminated first round unless you forfeit :D see this is proving my point more. You shouldn't give up because you wouldn't wanna be the only one out of the tourny in the first round :D

Double elim. for the win :]

[Statistic]

Can't get eliminated first round unless you forfeit :D see this is proving my point more. You shouldn't give up because you wouldn't wanna be the only one out of the tourny in the first round :D

Double elim. for the win :]
Hahaha, I just wanna do well, whether I win or not doesn't really matter to me, but being my first tourney, I wanna make a good impression. x3 Not look like a all talk no skill kinda dude, you know? If I come in here speaking my opinion like this and attempt to find a counter to this method, I should at least try to do somewhat well.

[ShineThatLight]

I did a lot better in my first tourny than I did in this one (I got 7th in Get Salty and did considerably worse here, only winning two matches I think?)

[Veysey]

Jeebus, you guys all really went to town didn't yas? All I can say is if Dave strips half as good as he "spams" sign me up! :D (And you guys are awesome, can't wait till I'm good enough to go toe to toe with you all)



D: Did the Grand Finals not finish last night? It's like being 10 again and waiting for Christmas, it just never seems to come XD

Oh, Stat and Armoxus, you two have a point you want to prove, which is awesome, so I'll be watching you two in upcoming tournies! Prove us all wrong, I'll be looking forward to see the answers you two provide!

[Kite]

Supposedly theyre playing on Tuesday

[Jirachi]

Unfortunately. He said he had plans for Memorial Day and he was also busy yesterday. Hopefully I find time to get on at Tuesday. I'd call that one a busy day for me.

[Demitel]

I did a lot better in my first tourny than I did in this one (I got 7th in Get Salty and did considerably worse here, only winning two matches I think?)

Don't sell yourself short, amigo. You tied for fifth place. XD

Also, yeah. I sucked ass in this one. I hadn't been playing in a month, was sick, lost my first match, and just said "fuck it" in my second one. I totally owe Hallabaloo multiple apologies for that one, since he didn't get to play in the WB due to a scheduling conflict and I got moved forward.

Either way, a lot of people weren't putting as much effort into this one as they should have. I've made an attempt to give as much as I can to DNC to make up for it.

[Hallabaloo4]

its okay, demi <3 as much as i woulda liked to play in the winner's bracket, i guess i did pretty decent in the lb ;)

[RDFMASTER]

If anyone here notice the last video is not there, it is because i delete. I don't know who the hell have the permission to put the video public without my permission. It really said is a TEST VIDEO. Now you all have to wait for me to i release the final version.

WHEN I PUT SOMETHING PRIVATE, IS FOR A REASON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The person who did this ruin the surprise :(

The video will be posted no later than 12 AM EDT Tuesday June 1, 2010

[funkyman02]

Meow meow meow.

[Demitel]

Also, on the topic of this tournament:

Don't hate the playa; hate the game.

[funkyman02]

Also, on the topic of this tournament:

Don't hate the playa; hate the game.

But! But! Human input is what makes the characters do their actions so if we hate the actions of a character we hate the player!

[Veysey]

Also, on the topic of this tournament:

Don't hate the playa; hate the game designers.

Fixed that up for ya ;)

Seriously though, it's a perfectly valid point. It isn't our job to interpret the intentions of the game designers. It's our job to play the game that's in front of us.

[Wedge]

Fixed that up for ya ;)

Seriously though, it's a perfectly valid point. It isn't our job to interpret the intentions of the game designers. It's our job to play the game that's in front of us.

If that was the case Veysey, there wouldn't be rule sets, nor a "competitive" environment.

[funkyman02]

DFF will never be competitive looking at the way things are.

[Dave880]

GG everyone! I hoped everyone enjoyed their time in this tournament. I'll be handing out the trophies as soon as possible. Thank you for everyone that has participated in this tournament and sorry for the major delay ^-')b

[funkyman02]

So Dave lost, eh? Well it's good to have someone new at the top. Good show Pokefan.

[K´Genesis]

Just glad it´s over.
Congrats to us all for the biggest tournament so far. And, of course, to Pokefan. Not bad for the first tourney, uh?
xD

[Nemo]

Nice Nice. Kuja vs. Zidane, classic. Good show, both of you. You're both winners. Not just saying that, you two really are toe to toe with eachother, but ofcourse one has to win. Thanks for the entertainment.

[Cookies]

I have to say, besides congrats to the winners, those last couple fights weren't that impressive... I mean the number of times when it was Squall Vs Terra and Squall could have ended it. So many times when given an opportunity it wasn't taken. It was dissapointing.

[Repliica]

Either way, a lot of people weren't putting as much effort into this one as they should have. I've made an attempt to give as much as I can to DNC to make up for it.

*Looks at David's SF spam
*Looks at NeroMD dropping out
*Glares at BEYNd -- err, wait.

:3 Haha, I do know that I tried to kick BEYNd's ass but it didn't work. I should've put in more effort myself which means gearing up with Squall by training beforehand but I turned down multiple opportunities. ANYWAY, I can't wait for the next tournament because I think I'll defo be entering ~

Congratulations to both Dave and Pokefan. Nice to see a good final <3 BUT DAVID. I AM DISAPPOINT SON.

I wanted more mystic flurry's.. only because that's my favorite attack. Buaha :3

Rep's logic = Screw Beat Fang, Mystic Flurry is prettier.
win logic if you ask me. :3

[Veysey]

Congrats Pokefan & Dave! Geez, you two really took it to the wire didn't you? I haven't gotten a chance to watch past match 3 of the first round, but stellar playing! I'm sure the next bunch of matches will be just as - if not more - entertaining than those!



If that was the case Veysey, there wouldn't be rule sets, nor a "competitive" environment.

That was kind of my point though. It's pretty obvious that the game was designed to be an experience akin to RPGs and not for competitive play. So by even having an organized community that competes, we're potentially already ignoring what the game designers intended.

The multiplayer seems to be nothing more than something of a ... simulator if you will? The largest competitive attempt we see out of this game is the lobby rooms that have arcade/preset equipment & movesets (which is obviously crap).

That's not to say that Dissidia won't eventually become something pretty solid in subsequent entries to the series, but as of right now, we're making our own rules and settings based on facts, logic, and enhancing gameplay (which is dangerous because the concept is subjective). Discouraging things like infinites, EX Counters, and the like helps enhance the gameplay and keep things competitive (more importantly, the community can mostly agree on these points). This is what we've decided to do with the game in front of us and I'm sure it wasn't the original intent of the designers. That being said (and moving onto a completely different topic) we as a community need to be careful what we ban and what we don't. If not, you end up with something completely misshapen and confusing.

Can you imagine?
- You EX Countered, DQ
- You chained that move in a combo more than 3 times, DQ
- You spammed a move more than 20 times in that match, DQ
- You grabbed too many Ex Cores, DQ
- You stayed in the air too long, DQ
- etc etc

I mean, I know its a little exaggerated and I know you personally don't have a problem with spam, but we need to be careful as we shape the game as we see fit because the designers gave us a nice little lump of clay - we can turn it into a work of art - or something that looks like three 5 year olds made. But no matter how you look at it, we're doing something potentially outside of the scope of the design so we need to try and remain objective in our efforts to improve the scene.

[HYNE]

It's pretty obvious that the game was designed to be an experience akin to RPGs and not for competitive play.
The game was designed to be played in whatever way the players want it to be played. Even Square Enix staff had a tournament, so all this talk about how Dissidia isn't meant to be a competitive game is overblown. You can do with the game whatever you want, just make it fun for yourself and your friends.

[Veysey]

Just because they had a tournament doesn't mean it was specifically meant to be competitive. I mean they did put competitive aspects into the game, sure, but that doesn't mean its the intent so much as an added feature. There is a huge difference between something a designer sees as a core aspect to a game and an added feature. Also, what you said about us being able to do with it what we want ... again, was my point, Hyne.


because the designers gave us a nice little lump of clay - we can turn it into a work of art - or something that looks like three 5 year olds made.

I guess I just can't be clear today, sorry everyone. I'm gonna take one last kick at the can and if it doesn't make sense, we'll I'll bow out of this conversation till I feel a little better (and not completely stuffed full of medication XD).

Basically what I'm trying to say from the beginning of Demis post on was:

- We play the game how we see fit. We don't bother guessing what the designers intended and we don't care. We shape it to our liking.
- What Wedge said is completely true. And if we went with the wishes of the designers, our competitive play would LIKELY (since this is just a guess) be based off of the arcade lobbies.
- Finally, since we're shaping the game as we see fit, WE are acting as designers - trying to make the game as competitively viable as possible. For this we NEED to try and remain objective and be very very careful on what we decide to change.

All of those points tie into each other and basically say; It's our game now, the designers gave us and interface for communication. Whether that communication be the telling of a story (RPGs and the like) or direct communication with others (competitive games like fighters, shooters, RTS, etc) - the basic concept of any game should be to convey a message or provide a means to convey a message. That's game design 101. If you don't agree or believe me, that's fine - maybe the ideology of game designers has changed in the last 5 years, but I doubt it's changed so drastically that anything I've known/experienced of the industry is now obsolete.

Sorry again all - and with that, I'm going to lie down for a bit.

[Armoxus]

I think Veysey likes to make such large posts to make us all look like idiots D:.

<3 Veysey for such awesome posts lol

[Demitel]

I think Veysey just summed it up pretty well, yeah...

YouTube- The Slow Clap

[Armoxus]

Veysey needs to fight off some arguements for me and I can be his height man, yo. :o

[Zane]

Congratulations too both Dave and Pokefan.

Also would you guys say, that this game. Is game more defensive or offensive?

I would say defensive do too guarding = almost if not all the time hits and kills.

Thoughts?

Also if this topic has already been brought sorry for bring it up again.

[Dave880]

^Defensive

[Wedge]

I'm glad Veysey is on the Jecht side of things because if I had to argue with him on some point, he would probably make me look like this:

YouTube- I Sort Glass Commercial

But in all seriousness, as always, you make an excellent point Veysey in terms of explaining our "unique" competitive environment.

I think as long as we have members like you around, I don't think the competitive scene will go in the off-hand department.

[Demitel]

Wedge, you are so going to Hell for that one, hahahaha.

[Veysey]

Ohh ho, a slow clap, eh? Thank you, thank you *takes a bow*

Seriously though, as usual, I'm just happy to contribute and that the contribution was worth something.

And I'd never try to make you look like ... that ... Wedge XD

[tw1g007]

I am so proud of my teammates. Words can't describe how happy and slightly sad (in RDF's situation) I am.

Congratulations to Pokefan for winning the tournament. Watched the videos and they revealed a lot about Kuja expertise. Kuja with full ex mode is really disturbing and scary.

Congratulations to RDF for placing top 4 (could have been better). Its too bad you missed out on coming to my place the first time due to exams. But upon receiving your calls on a second chance for a visit RL kicked in... hard.

Things are looking up a little bit. I will try to go through some details if I find you guys on IRC.

Tough tourney. Well done indeed. Even if I wasn't there for the finale, I would like to think I was there in spirit. :)

EDIT:

Eck. I am a retard. And a big...

Congratulations to Meoark for 13th place. Facing Dave in the very beginning was tough. Hopefully you place top 10 in the future.