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View Full Version : RW > PF. Really?



Uriel
04-25-2010, 01:18 PM
EDIT: As of now, this "combo" is not working properly against humans, and falls short of being a true combo. It can be dodged out of with a proper dodge as the opponent gets up off the ground. Sorry if anyone got excited. I made this thread not because I was sure I had a combo on my hands, but because I was curious about some of the properties involved in carrying over critical boosts from one attack to a follow up after a wall-rush.

Making theads, not my specialty. I'm just going to get to the point:

Radiant Wings > Paladin Force is (probably) a very real HP link for Cecil.

I have tested against CPU, and one real player on AHP.

I have a vid, and specifics as well as advice on how to pull this off.

There's still a possibility I could be wrong about this, if the player I was testing with was doing something wrong and the crit boost on PF can be explained away. Furthermore, I've only been able to confirm this (ie. land it on a human) after blocking an attack. Not that I've tried many times, simply because lag wouldn't allow me to execute it properly, and I had limited time.

So, assuming it works, here's an explanation on how to do it (this is just how I do it, there may be other ways that work for you, or ways that allow you to do it in more situations):

- Turn off midair evasion boost (i think this is necessary)

- Use RW on a grounded, or nearly grounded opponent, so that you are not far from the ground as you hit them (you can see the distance on the vid).

- I find it helps if you delay the second part of RW, though this may be unnecessary or even pointless altogether.

- The opponent will either fall slightly towards or away from you (I'm not sure what determines this). If they fall away from you, dodge to one side then the other and slightly forward (towards them) assuming you're facing them directly. There seem to be slight variations on this depending on circumstances (camera angle?) and all I can say at this point is that it's something you need to get a feel for, but once you get the timing down and where you need to be relative to them, this becomes easier. I always adjust my camera angle during RW so that I'm facing them directly and therefore have basically the same input to make it work.

- It's much easier to land the combo when they fall towards you. The dodge is easier to position, I think you have to still go side to side though since it seems to make you come out lower (again, unsure on some of these points) than if you dodge in place, which is important.

- Hit Paladin Force ASAP to cancel out of the dodge.

- Win with Cecil.

Video:
YouTube- Dissidia: Cecil's RW to PF

Video Explanation:

I'm testing out various crit boosting abilities on the computer in this video to see if they last into the paladin force, which would give me some reason to believe it's a true combo.

First is "First Strike". It does not stay active into paladin force.

Next is "Counterattack". When counterattack is activated by RW, it always comes up again when I land Paladin force, even though the word "Counterattack" disappears from the screen. Does this mean the CPU is using an attack as it gets up? Maybe, although the fact that CA ALWAYS comes up in this case and not in the usual case, like when I did the first strike combo, seems to imply something else is going on. Still, this doesn't confirm that the combo is truly continuing.

In the last example I use "Riposte" by staggering cloud before RW. The result is that PF gains a 100% crit rate!.. But the word Riposte does not display during PF.

After testing briefly online and receiving player confirmation that this works (although it's harder to do in lag,) I'm reasonably convinced that it is a real combo, but hasn't seen much use because of the difficulty in pulling it off and in understanding how to replicate it. I hope that this thread will allow experienced Cecil players to raise their games to the next level.

Note:
If this is in fact not a combo, I would be very curious to see what accounts for the continuing crit boost when I throw out PF after the block to RW.

Scott
04-25-2010, 02:25 PM
Not too sure about Cecil stuff, but this seems awfully situational; you've need to be able to wall rush your enemy from the attack, and be close enough to pull off Paladin Force.

It is a Wall-rush Combo, but that's about it, I'd say.

Uriel
04-25-2010, 07:08 PM
@scott - The only situation it requires is that your opponent is grounded or very near the floor, and you hit them with RW. That's not so specific really. The necessary distance from the opponent, though, is more specific than just being close enough. If you're too close after radiant wings it means they'll be able to recover in time (because they didn't fall as far to hit the floor) before you can throw out PF.

You really think it's not significant if Cecil can now punish any laggy ground move or low aerial with 60 base damage and an HP attack w/ wall rush? "That's about it" you say?

ShineThatLight
04-25-2010, 07:23 PM
Well, whenever the opponent returns to neutral or attacks, then all crit skills are reset. This explains why first strike doesn't work. Counter Attack activating means that the computer is trying to attack again as it is getting up. This could be why it is working on him, but not when you tested it online.

Uriel
04-25-2010, 07:29 PM
Well, whenever the opponent returns to neutral or attacks, then all crit skills are reset. This explains why first strike doesn't work. Counter Attack activating means that the computer is trying to attack again as it is getting up. This could be why it is working on him, but not when you tested it online.

You didn't read anything I wrote, did you?

ShineThatLight
04-25-2010, 07:46 PM
My bottom line, if it landed on me once when we were fighting
I may have reconsidered. But it not only missed once, but upwards of 15 times :[

I simply offered an explanation as to why the crit skills were activating when they did. That is all. Take it or leave it. As for why Riposte didn't deactivate, he was most likely trying to walk away. Considering CA didn't activate meaning he wasn't attacking. And he clearly wasn't in his neutral stance yet.

Uriel
04-25-2010, 07:49 PM
My bottom line, if it landed on me once when we were fighting
I may have reconsidered. But it not only missed once, but upwards of 15 times :[

I simply offered an explanation as to why the crit skills were activating when they did. That is all. Take it or leave it.

The game was very laggy and the dodge is not easy for me to pull off, so I'm not surprised that I couldn't do it.

Can you be more specific about riposte? If they try to walk away it will not deactivate? How does this work? Are you saying he could cancel his wake-up into a dodge but if he doesn't then it is counted as a true combo? As I said, I've only tested this briefly with real people, so I'll have to repeat the process to see if it works in that case.

ShineThatLight
04-25-2010, 08:09 PM
The game was very laggy and the dodge is not easy for me to pull off, so I'm not surprised that I couldn't do it.

Can you be more specific about riposte? If they try to walk away it will not deactivate? How does this work? Are you saying he could cancel his wake-up into a dodge but if he doesn't then it is counted as a true combo? As I said, I've only tested this briefly with real people, so I'll have to repeat the process to see if it works in that case.

Well when you are in your wake up, you can do a few things. In fastest to slowest.

1. Dodge
2. Attack
3. Guard
4. Move
5. Jump
6. Dash
(id like to note 4, 5, 6 are all just about tied for every character except a select few, such as Golbez who can jump faster than he can move or dash.)
From my experiences the fastest you return to to neutral is by dodging or landing. Since you already landed, you can't land again. (this is like how the fastest thing you can do after dodging is attack, since you can't dodge again. So in theory the fastest order of operations would be to Dodge, Attack, Guard. [the rest all apply only to a neutral stance])

Uriel
04-25-2010, 08:32 PM
OK, I tested a bit more, under better lag conditions, and found that the attack, as I was performing it at least, is very much avoidable with a proper dodge. The player I originally tested with was not as reliable as I'd hoped, and the crit boost can be explained by what Shine is talking about, I believe. Too bad, but that's how it turns out for now. Maybe there will be some situations where this will still work, or adaptations that can be made, but as it stands this is not a true combo as I'd hoped. No one should find this too shocking.

I'll keep trying, anyway, to make this sort of thing work, and post any new info here.

ShineThatLight
04-25-2010, 08:35 PM
Can RW cause wallrush on a wall? If so, it may be like landing Sonic Buster -> Energy Rain with Tidus :O
Where wallrush & landing lag are needed.

Uriel
04-25-2010, 08:42 PM
Can RW cause wallrush on a wall? If so, it may be like landing Sonic Buster -> Energy Rain with Tidus :O
Where wallrush & landing lag are needed.

No, I don't believe it can. It seems to send you directly down and I don't think I've seen anyone hit a wall off of it.

I've heard/seen that summons may be able to interrupt some actions, like an attack, if the summon is used at about the same time as the input for the attack is given. Is it theoretically possible to interrupt a dodge in this way? (lol)

Also, I have some questions about the crit boosters worth mentioning.

- With counterattack, I find it strange that the CPU always attacks on wake-up if it was caught with a counterattack, and doesn't do so particularly often if it wasn't. Is it possible that counterattack is simply staying active, as you said, until he returns to neutral (which he doesn't until after PF). If this is the case though, I don't see why sneak attack shouldn't work the same way, and it doesn't (or does sneak attack only activate on particular attacks that hit from behind and deactivate for the remainder of a combo which continues with hits from the front?). So does this mean the CPU just always responds by attacking on wake-up when it gets CA'd?

- With First Strike, why is it turning off? I tried it multiple times, and although I'm not sure I executed it perfectly in the video, none of the times I tried it continued the crit boost. So what rule is governing first strike that doesn't apply to riposte to make it deactivate?