Drafting Idea

[Haruhiist]

Manual draft would be awesome if it was done on time, imo.

But clearly we're having problems with the whole 'done on time' thing. Also, theres been a lot of complaints about how it can be used to put one person at a great advantage (kind of the point of a seeding draft like this anyway).

As a DotA player, I'll bring up an example. In Captains Mode (which is a drafting mode), each captain picks bans and then picks heroes in turns, both captains try to counterpick the other captains picks and see what kind of play they are going for and pick the appropriate heroes that can hurt their play. However, picking a hero means the other teams captain will also be able to counterpick your heroes.

From what I can tell, the point of a draft mode is to allow counterpicking while putting yourself at the danger of being counterpicked, although in DotA there is the added function of banning heroes that may counter your own picks.

Now, look at Dissidia. The current draft format has 16 leaders, presumably leaders as a form of seeding so that they can advance into the next level (that is the point of seeding, right?). This is a legit form of draft advantage, except that the other players are put as pawns and cannot fight back, they can only sit back and see if they will be lucky enough to not get picked into a bad matchup.

So, I propose a different idea, where the players draft themselves. Yeah, we can have a number of groups to fit the amount of players in the tournament, and have players actually draft themselves into each group. Interesting?

Each player has to go out and at least do a bit of research on whos in each group, and decide which group is the most advantageous to draft into. This is a lot more troublesome than it seems, because each group should have at least 4 people, all of varying mains and skills, it's unlikely that a player will be able to counter all 4 of those.

With this kind of drafting, mostly everyone will have a chance to do their own 'counterpicking' and also a chance to get 'counterpicked' which is kind of the point of it all.

Major problems I can think of include who drafts into each empty group first, and how you could possibly seed in this kind of format.

Maybe it's possible to place a ban on the usage of certain characters in each of the group? e.g. In Group 1, players cannot use: Ultimeca, Kuja etc.

This will encourage people to draft first.

This is all just something I thought of randomly while reading the Ragnarok thread though.

[Veysey]

Obviously it's just a rough idea you've presented, but the concept does interest me. It's certainly not something I'd want to dismiss without at least further discussion.

I especially like the idea of having group themes that help players understand their weaknesses and make intelligent choices based on what characters they feel they'd be best suited to fight.

I think the biggest problem would be execution, but I've got a few ideas to combat that already. We'll see what others think and it might just be something to try in the future. (I'll throw a few more of my opinions out as people discuss)

[TKG09]

This would take longer than the manual drafting where the leader picks the members. Good idea though.

[Veysey]

This would take longer than the manual drafting where the leader picks the members. Good idea though.

It's dependent on the setup. For example, if when signups come around, you have the groups and their leaders already set aside (which means they would already need to be contacted about whether they want to participate), then at sign ups, ask people to list - in order of preference - the groups they'd like to be in. (They'd also need to list their mains/secondaries as to not get placed in a group they can't perform in). It'd basically be like this: (quick example, not how it'd actually be)

Group A: Melee Types
Group B: Mage Types
Group C: Hybrids

And when I sign up, I'd say
Mains: Jecht Seconds: Firion, Golbez
Group Preference:
A,
C,
B

Then at the end of sign ups, people would be placed in groups dependent on their preferences. They may not get what they wanted most, but most people would likely get into a group they at least thought was decent for them.

I think that would be fairly quick and wouldn't hold up the progress of the tourney much at all.

[TKG09]

It's dependent on the setup. For example, if when signups come around, you have the groups and their leaders already set aside (which means they would already need to be contacted about whether they want to participate), then at sign ups, ask people to list - in order of preference - the groups they'd like to be in. (They'd also need to list their mains/secondaries as to not get placed in a group they can't perform in). It'd basically be like this: (quick example, not how it'd actually be)

Group A: Melee Types
Group B: Mage Types
Group C: Hybrids

And when I sign up, I'd say
Mains: Jecht Seconds: Firion, Golbez
Group Preference:
A,
C,
B

Then at the end of sign ups, people would be placed in groups dependent on their preferences. They may not get what they wanted most, but most people would likely get into a group they at least thought was decent for them.

I think that would be fairly quick and wouldn't hold up the progress of the tourney much at all.

But the sing ups already happened. We'd need to start another thread so everyone who's gonna participate the tourney can post their preferences. That would take a long while.

[Haruhiist]

Way faster than leader drafting.
People would just have to list out their preferences as Veysey said, every person, one post, only takes 5 minutes for each person. I'm sure everyone will be able to do it quickly and efficiently, and we can put a 2-3 day limit where you'll be randomly put into a group as a penalty if you don't state your choice.

Otherwise, we can just have people stating their choice of group, and everyone can spend 5 minutes looking to see if that group is full or not. E.G. the limit for each group is 5 people, everyone just has to take a short read and see if there's already 5 people in their preferred group. It'll just take a bit of everyone's time instead of everyone sitting there waiting for 16 people to draft themselves.

Mods can just take turns to update the main post with all the groups, I suppose. Since we pretty much have mods to cover 24 hours.. I think?

[Veysey]

But the sing ups already happened. We'd need to start another thread so everyone who's gonna participate the tourney can post their preferences. That would take a long while.

I wasn't suggesting specifically for Ragnarok. I was speaking in generalities should this ever be attempted again. I like the prelim setup, it just needed to be executed better. For Ragnarok specifically - I've already said my piece in other threads.

My view is more of a "future proofing" if you will. If other organizers in the future want to approach this concept again, then they'll have a few options on how they can execute it without upsetting people.

[Kraid]

Or we could just do what normal people do and just do it normally without a drafting process.

[rshadowkirby]

Or we could just do what normal people do and just do it normally without a drafting process.

QFT

also some of us dont have scattered mains and may just want to one character the whole tourney and see how far we get, thus this gimmick would screw us over.

also in terms of mains my mains are complete mages, so if those were banned id have to go with really inexperienced secondaries

thats ridiclous for a tourney where people are supposed to be going all out with everything they got

[Veysey]

Or we could just do what normal people do and just do it normally without a drafting process.

We could, but is there really something wrong with trying something new if it's well thought out and planned? Our community is getting larger and it will become increasingly difficult to manage tournaments as more and more people get involved so proposing solutions isn't counterproductive or anything. I don't mean every tournament should bring something new and exciting to the table or attempt to address what the TOs feel is a problem since there is definitely comfort in something that's been tried and tested. But if a new idea comes to the table, is it really that bad to humor it and at least consider the possibility? We don't grow by staying in our comfort zone and doing the same thing all the time. That being said, some ideas just don't cut it either - but you'll usually find that out pretty early on in the discussion phase.

Regardless of what is done, I do feel that there needs to be some sort of filtering process in future large tournaments - whether it be a drafting process, only allowing people with certain skill levels to participate, specifically dividing the tournament into divisions, etc etc. As tournaments get larger, not only do they become harder to manage but participants become lost in the crowd and end up losing out on some of the experience a tournament offers.

I, of course, have a personal preference as to how I'd like to see things happen, but I don't see any problem in humoring other ideas and concepts as well. Who knows, maybe I'd grow to really like it?

---
Edit: Kirbs, I think you might have missed the point of what was being said. It was an example but lets take it on a larger example:

Group A: No FF1 characters
Group B: No FF2 characters
etc etc
Group K: No Special Characters (Shan/Gabby)

So you sign up as Ultimecia as your only character
Then say you have a really hard time against Bratz, Terra, Garland, and Kefka
Obviously you'd want to try and get into the group with no FFVI characters, followed by the no FFV group and then the FFI group for prelims.

It basically gives you a chance to cover your weaknesses and perform well in the group and secure a position in the tournament. Again, the concept is interesting in my opinion and while I'm not convinced it should be implemented, I don't see the harm in humoring the idea.

[Kraid]

We could, but is there really something wrong with trying something new if it's well thought out and planned?

I don't mind trying out something that has been well thought out and planned, but this drafting system is far from being 'well thought out'.


Our community is getting larger and it will become increasingly difficult to manage tournaments as more and more people get involved so proposing solutions isn't counterproductive or anything.

Our community is getting larger and larger, but we should stick to the more simple and basic stuff AS IT GETS LARGER so we don't end up dicking around like we have been doing with the drafting process already.


But if a new idea comes to the table, is it really that bad to humor it and at least consider the possibility? We don't grow by staying in our comfort zone and doing the same thing all the time. That being said, some ideas just don't cut it either - but you'll usually find that out pretty early on in the discussion phase.

A tournament doesn't grow by just suddenly throwing everything out of the window. Imagine if Brawl or SSFIV tournaments did that?

"Hey, let's have a drafting process where we have no Mario Characters allowed. Whoohey!"

"We could do a pool where there will be no characters where no SFII characters were allowed."

That is not how a tournament works. And yes it DOES hurt to humour because imagine if you're a newer player and you want to enter the tournament. Again I'll use Ragnarok here. Some of those players might enter then think "Geez, is this how they do all their tournaments? It's shitty and I don't want to enter again."

Yea we don't grow by not expanding. But if you expand in the wrong place, it DOES hurt.


Regardless of what is done, I do feel that there needs to be some sort of filtering process in future large tournaments - whether it be a drafting process, only allowing people with certain skill levels to participate, specifically dividing the tournament into divisions, etc etc.

I find this to be ridiculously stupid. So what we firstly proposed and do is good enough for EVO which hosts hundreds of players, BUT it's not good for Dissidia Forums which hosts just under eighty players? I'm not sure what people are more at a loss for:

The Drafting System (Which I find funny because the Ninjas asked us what we wanted and we said we wanted Double Elimination. So they chose the other option instead.)

or

The Ruleset (Which I also find ridiciously funny because everyone VOTED for the ruleset then everyone complains on how shitty the ruleset is... despite the fact that THEY VOTED FOR IT.)

Why do we need to filter anything? Have you seen how easy it is to MAKE a bracket? Some retarded chimp who sorts glass for a living could easily do it.

But we DO have a filtering system. It's called seeding. That way then everyone also gets a chance to play in the tournament. I just don't see why the Ninjas or ANY OF US are trying to change what we already establishes works. I also note that it's taking AGES for people to choose their groups. I'm still waiting on Paru to pick his next person so I can choose my next person.

I just think that you guys (Veysey and the Ninjas) are just TRYING to overcomplicate a system that shouldn't be overcomplicated.

[TKG09]

I agree. You are just trying to overcomplicate something that could easily be something simple.

[tw1g007]

I wasn't aware we had picks between double elim and drafts.

Guess I was out of the loop.

[Veysey]

I don't mind trying out something that has been well thought out and planned, but this drafting system is far from being 'well thought out'.

Which is why it's being discussed right now. Like I said, I'm not making points for Ragnarok - that ship has already sailed. I'm simply discussing future possibilities. If someone has cons to bring to the table/explain why it's so bad, I'm all ears.

Our community is getting larger and larger, but we should stick to the more simple and basic stuff AS IT GETS LARGER so we don't end up dicking around like we have been doing with the drafting process already.

Which is why it's being discussed away from the tournament rather than within it. I don't think this should have anything to do with the current tournaments.

A tournament doesn't grow by just suddenly throwing everything out of the window. Imagine if Brawl or SSFIV tournaments did that?

I didn't think we were throwing "everything out the window". If you add a drafting process to the beginning of a tournament but everything else remained the same, how is that throwing anything out besides the fact that everyone won't participate in the double-elim portion?

"Hey, let's have a drafting process where we have no Mario Characters allowed. Whoohey!"

"We could do a pool where there will be no characters where no SFII characters were allowed."

And yet we have tournaments where Omega stages are allowed, some where they aren't. Some that have standardized equips, some with no equips, some with whatever. They're gimmicks as well - but again, I don't see the harm in discussing it (away from tournaments, like previously stated). The fact is, Dissidia isn't a normal fighter and as hard as we try, it won't become one. Our closest base is Smash so did we use their rulings and formats as a base? Well, no, of course not, because Dissidia is a different game. It's that mentality that leads me to believe that a certain amount of experimentation and discussion isn't going to hurt anything.

That is not how a tournament works. And yes it DOES hurt to humour because imagine if you're a newer player and you want to enter the tournament. Again I'll use Ragnarok here. Some of those players might enter then think "Geez, is this how they do all their tournaments? It's shitty and I don't want to enter again."

That's a fine and valid point. As I said before though, I'm not talking about Ragnarok. In my opinion, a tournament needs to be planned and executed - if things don't go well, lesson learned - but you shouldn't be changing stuff halfway through after everything is open to the public and the wheels are already in motion. Which is why I have no problem humoring this discussion. It's not in any of the tourney forums - it's a discussion pertaining to the future and what someone might want to try at some point.

Yea we don't grow by not expanding. But if you expand in the wrong place, it DOES hurt.

Which is why discussion is nice and healthy. People don't need to agree, they just need to provide good evidence to support their stance. If it all makes sense, anyone who's able to think for themselves should be able to see where they are coming from. I'm not asking people to be like "OH yay, this sounds awesome!!", I'd much rather people challenge the idea so everything is on the table and we all have a good idea of the actual pros and cons. I'm not stupid, and I'm not stubborn. Provide a point that makes sense and supports a stance I'm not currently supporting and it may very well convince me that my way of thinking was wrong. (Or at least not ideal for that particular situation)

I find this to be ridiculously stupid. So what we firstly proposed and do is good enough for EVO which hosts hundreds of players, BUT it's not good for Dissidia Forums which hosts just under eighty players? I'm not sure what people are more at a loss for:

Actually no, I don't feel it's ideal for Dissidia Forums. No offense but EVO (and most other tournament scenes) handle their stuff A LOT better than we do. Also, we're dealing with online play and conflicting schedules. They can settle the matches between those hundreds of people in a couple of days while at times it takes us a week or better to settle one match. Even KAoS which was run fairly decently ran into it's fair share of holdups and problems. Really, either TOs smarten up and start being less lenient or we solve the problem some other way (like making the actual tournaments smaller for example).

Fact is, people around here, while serious to an extent, still act like casuals for the most part. Some people just aren't/can't be devoted to the tournament scene and we need to remain aware of that. Our scene isn't the same as the SSFIV scene or the Smash scene despite our best wishes for it to shape up to be like theirs.

The Drafting System (Which I find funny because the Ninjas asked us what we wanted and we said we wanted Double Elimination. So they chose the other option instead.)

or

The Ruleset (Which I also find ridiciously funny because everyone VOTED for the ruleset then everyone complains on how shitty the ruleset is... despite the fact that THEY VOTED FOR IT.)

Not my field - I'll let the Ninjas deal with that. Especially since I wasn't talking about Ragnarok anyways.

Why do we need to filter anything? Have you seen how easy it is to MAKE a bracket? Some retarded chimp who sorts glass for a living could easily do it.

But we DO have a filtering system. It's called seeding. That way then everyone also gets a chance to play in the tournament. I just don't see why the Ninjas or ANY OF US are trying to change what we already establishes works. I also note that it's taking AGES for people to choose their groups. I'm still waiting on Paru to pick his next person so I can choose my next person.

Making the bracket is easy, yes. Getting people to finish their matches on time with lenient TOs... not so much. Completely thought through on my part? No, otherwise I'd have included in my previous post that TOs tightening up would also work as a potential solution. There IS a problem - and I'm trying to address it. Also, that thought about the TOs wouldn't have even surfaced if not for your points - like I said, discussion is good ;)

I just think that you guys (Veysey and the Ninjas) are just TRYING to overcomplicate a system that shouldn't be overcomplicated.

I'm starting to think that you see me as part of the Ragnarok crew >_> (Which I'm not... and I'm not talking about Ragnarok, either. I'm talking in generalities.)

Responses in bold. Oh, and to try and get the point out there one more time - I'm not discussing Ragnarok or any other current tournament.

Oh and I'd like to hear what makes a drafting process so bad? I don't really see why it's so looked down upon - if it was properly executed and planned. Sorry, but I just don't see what's so bad about it =/

[Stupid Aquarius]

Oh and I'd like to hear what makes a drafting process so bad? I don't really see why it's so looked down upon - if it was properly executed and planned. Sorry, but I just don't see what's so bad about it =/
I'm trying to understand this as well. The only complication in THIS case just seems to be that the drafting system is going incredibly slowly, and that it won't finish on time for the tourney's scheduled date. If it was all done and ready before it was even announced to the public I don't think there'd be as much wankity wank wank as there is now.

[Proximately]

Are there foundations to how we lay out our tournaments? I'm not very familiar with the drafting system as I haven't spent a lot of time on this side of the forum (that is to say; I have no idea how the draft system works.) but it seems to me like we could use some basic rules that are obligatory for every tournament.

I'm also pretty sure that the people designing the tournament setup are intelligent enough to figure out a system that works. I do NOT believe that the general populous understand exactly how the different systems we have in use work (I'm one of them) so it's probably pretty hard to ask for voters who won't complain after they realised what they voted for wasn't what they wanted.

Have a final discussion for how we pick opponents for the people participating in a tournament. When that discussion is over (and maybe one or two polls as well) I suggest that we put the information (and some common sense) into use to create a tournament system which suits as many people as possible.

Note: These would be systems that would be put into practice for every tournament. It could be made public should the players demand it.

I believe the main problem at the moment is the drafting system we have in use now right? Can someone send me the information on how we set things up normally?

E-mail: Dan_Isacsson@hotmail.com

I simply wish to have a look on it to have a greater insight into how things work.

[Kraid]

And yet we have tournaments where Omega stages are allowed, some where they aren't. Some that have standardized equips, some with no equips, some with whatever. They're gimmicks as well - but again, I don't see the harm in discussing it (away from tournaments, like previously stated). The fact is, Dissidia isn't a normal fighter and as hard as we try, it won't become one. Our closest base is Smash so did we use their rulings and formats as a base? Well, no, of course not, because Dissidia is a different game. It's that mentality that leads me to believe that a certain amount of experimentation and discussion isn't going to hurt anything.



You should read this and think to yourself what is wrong with that statement? In those ones we ban stages and equipment, BUT NOT THE ACTUAL CHARACTERS. By changing the ways pools work and go "No WoL and Garland here." That just seems really stupid.

Dissidia isn't a normal fighter, but nor is Brawl. But yet Brawl has done NOTHING like this. I just feel this idea is retarded.

When Get Salty was being done I should note: People DID THEIR MATCHES on time. It wasn't as lenient as Kaos at all.

[Spyder]

I'm not sure what people are more at a loss for:

The Drafting System (Which I find funny because the Ninjas asked us what we wanted and we said we wanted Double Elimination. So they chose the other option instead.)

or

The Ruleset (Which I also find ridiciously funny because everyone VOTED for the ruleset then everyone complains on how shitty the ruleset is... despite the fact that THEY VOTED FOR IT.)

Honestly, I don't see how this has anything to do with the discussion other than to vent your frustrations. The ruleset itself doesn't even have a place in discussing the idea of using a drafting system. The discussion at hand here is to see where we could go with a drafting system in future tournaments. So keep Ragnarok out of it. If you want to voice your frustration regarding that tournament, you have the IRC and the Ragnarok threads for that.

Also I don't see anything wrong in trying out something new, although you probably already know that, considering how passionately infuriated you are about the Ragnarok. But what we have here is a discussion to plan things through and perhaps get a working system for a future tournament.

Don't forget that your group was in the same shoes in last September, arguing that Double Elimination is better way to go than Single Elimination. The argument against double elimin. was the same as the argument you are using now against the filtering system and against the draft---it's more complicated. Yet we still went for a system more complicated than the simplest bracket of all--single elimination. Of course at that time, like now, you were using EVO as your argument's strong point as if the system they use is the best prime example we should strive for. But you have to understand each game is different. This is why there are so many different formats. Because every game out there is unique.

You say that expanding in the wrong place hurts. And I agree with you on that fact. However, not expanding at all hurts even more. One needs to try different aspects even if we do run into dead ends sometimes. Otherwise we'll be stuck in dead waters.

So why don't we take the time to discuss and see where this goes instead of dismissing the idea entirely.

[Armoxus]

Honestly, I don't see how this has anything to do with the discussion other than to vent your frustrations. The ruleset itself doesn't even have a place in discussing the idea of using a drafting system. The discussion at hand here is to see where we could go with a drafting system in future tournaments. So keep Ragnarok out of it. If you want to voice your frustration regarding that tournament, you have the IRC and the Ragnarok threads for that.

Also I don't see anything wrong in trying out something new, although you probably already know that, considering how passionately infuriated you are about the Ragnarok. But what we have here is a discussion to plan things through and perhaps get a working system for a future tournament.

Don't forget that your group was in the same shoes in last September, arguing that Double Elimination is better way to go than Single Elimination. The argument against double elimin. was the same as the argument you are using now against the filtering system and against the draft---it's more complicated. Yet we still went for a system more complicated than the simplest bracket of all--single elimination. Of course at that time, like now, you were using EVO as your argument's strong point as if the system they use is the best prime example we should strive for. But you have to understand each game is different. This is why there are so many different formats. Because every game out there is unique.

You say that expanding in the wrong place hurts. And I agree with you on that fact. However, not expanding at all hurts even more. One needs to try different aspects even if we do run into dead ends sometimes. Otherwise we'll be stuck in dead waters.

So why don't we take the time to discuss and see where this goes instead of dismissing the idea entirely.

This.

/10char

[tw1g007]

Okay I am all up for discussing but can anyone point out any solid examples of drafts being used in competitive video games (preferably fighters) so we can draw on the pros and cons.

And no. I am not talking about real life sports teams. Because when I sat down and thought about this carefully, I have never come across any drafting process with competitive fighting games. And believe me I have witnessed a lot of their formats (obviously not all of them).

Now if such examples don't exist then we have a long way to go with implementing this idea in the future.

Regardless I will agree with Spyder and Veysey with one point they expressed. It never hurts to discuss possible tournament formats that maybe implemented in the future. ;)

[Kraid]

It doesn't HURT to talk about it. But it's quite a different issue that we're Talking about it while it's being done.

This shows there WAS no thought process for the Ragnarok tournament as we're now only DISCUSSING IT DURING THE TOURNAMENT ITSELF.

Yea, it doesn't hurt to talk. But it DOES hurt when we're in the middle of the blasted thing THEN saying "it doesn't hurt to talk about it."

[Stupid Aquarius]

This discussion is about the drafting system for future tournaments, Kraid. Not Ragnarok. The thought process was already explained, whether you agree with it or not is regardless to the fact that there was one in the first place.


The discussion at hand is to see where we could go with a drafting system in future tournaments. So keep Ragnarok out of it. If you want to voice your frustration regarding that tournament, you have the IRC and the Ragnarok threads for that.

I still don't really get what your big beef is with the drafting system.

[TKG09]

Oh and I'd like to hear what makes a drafting process so bad? I don't really see why it's so looked down upon - if it was properly executed and planned. Sorry, but I just don't see what's so bad about it =/

i dont know about other people but i dislike the drafting system because:

1- Its overcomplicated when something very simple could be used
2- It takes too long. No im not talking leaders taking over 9000 hours to pick the members. What im talking about is: like u said in ur post, when it comes to online tourneys, it takes some time for people to have their matches, since they have their lifes and things other than the tourney to worry about. So the matches wont happen as soon as the player finds out whos his/her opponent, rather, it will take 2 or 3 days, sometimes even more. With the drafting system, each player will whave to face 15-ish opponents, and then they'll still have to go to the double elimination bracket. That would result in a lot of matches to be made, and lot of replays to watch, so the tourney would take really long

[Slayer0]

Most people's problem seems to be "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and the fact that people can and will abuse this picking system to easily advance. Even if we have another upset like Jirachi, people are still going to try and win. At least, that's what I would do. This is a tournament first; you should be playing to win.

And if anyone says "lawl he's talking about Rag" this still applies to any tournaments, so...yeah.

[Nemo]

And yes it DOES hurt to humour because imagine if you're a newer player and you want to enter the tournament. Again I'll use Ragnarok here. Some of those players might enter then think "Geez, is this how they do all their tournaments? It's shitty and I don't want to enter again."

Sorry, but back then, as a new player to the competitive scene, that's honestly pretty much what I thought about your "Get Salty Tournament", namely the ruleset. Yeah..wasn't a
good impression for newcomers, being their first tournament and all.


I just feel this idea is retarded.

This is really helping the discussion.

[Haruhiist]

Huh. Personally, I put up this idea because I think drafting is more interesting than seeing how a randomizer sets you up for a tournament placing. It feels less luck-dependent, since you're the one who placed yourself in that group, instead of seeing the double elimination brackets and going '...fuck, I got placed against Jirachi in the first round'. It'll make the tournament interactive from the very start, and personally I think it will be fun but if the community here really does oppose to it and would rather have their brackets done for them and totally randomized (more or less) then... majority wins? I think?

I wasn't actually here when you guys switched from single elimination to double elimination, but I can see why it could be easier tested compared to drafting since no one actually needs to do anything. TOs just need to use the double elimination system, and just like that it's put in place. So drafting will actually require support from the community, or a mini test tournament or something like that.

About drafting taking too long, it's not the actual drafting that should take long (I can imagine it being done in 2 days at most, and after that everyone else can just be randomized if they don't have any valid reason), but the round robin preliminaries. On this, I can personally agree that round robin will take really long, when I looked at the Ragnarok system, my main concern was how I was to finish 4 matches in the 4 day limit. But round robin doesn't necessarily have to be used for the first round.

Everyone seems to think drafting includes round robin because that is how the idea is being presented at the moment, but drafting just means placing yourself into brackets - it doesn't really mean anything else. So for all we know, drafting can be used to place yourself into double elimination brackets.

Once again, the point of the drafting system is to allow some sort of strategy as well as interactivity to the pre-tournament process, and to remove a bit of the 'luck of the draw' feeling you'll get from having a randomized opponent in the current system.

The bans do not HAVE to be part of the drafting system either, I just thought of them as a way to encourage people to draft first instead of everyone waiting for the first few drafts before putting themselves into a bracket. Bans are a part of the drafting system used in tournament games like DotA, and I realise that the drafting system is being taken from an entirely different genre, but like what was previously stated, it's a fresh, new idea and could possibly make for an interesting preliminary round.

Also, yes, this isn't intended for Ragnarok.

[Kraid]

Guys. You want to talk about the drafting process, fine. But we only HAVE Ragnarok to compare it to. Since Ragnarok is in the MIDDLE of the drafting process, it is FULLY on the table.


Sorry, but back then, as a new player to the competitive scene, that's honestly pretty much what I thought about your "Get Salty Tournament", namely the ruleset. Yeah..wasn't a
good impression for newcomers, being their first tournament and all.

Ruleset =/= How tournaments are run.

But ok, sure. I just want to note that again: many tournaments are much bigger than half the stuff we run. Shall we go for something new or something that is tested and works perfectly? Most of the people I seemingly deal with and speak to think that Ragnarok is joke for many reasons, the big one being the draftting reason.

And then let me make another thing clear: Say we have a drafting system, that will ALSO need to be seeded which actually takes FAR more work than simply double elimination.

But Kraid, you gallant stallion, what if we just RANDOMISE THE POOLS COMPLETELY.

Oh yes that's just ingenious. I'm so glad you mentioned that because it's THE MOST RETARDED THING YOU CAN DO. If you do it at random, you could have one pool full of no named players while in another pool you could have Dave, Funky, Robo and Wedge. Remember, only two of those apparently go through.

Then at which point the people who entered the tournament in the first place may never get through. The seeding process gets destroyed.

"But Kraid, you magnificent and cunning british dude, what if we SEED the drafting process, will that make you happy?"

It'd be better than completely randomising it, but it's still a bad idea. Let me explain: I again will use Ragnarok since it's using the drafting system.

The Ninjas wanted to use the Drafting system because they, quite simply put it, don't know how to seed at all. How in hell will pools help? Well it means that people won't be able to play in the proper tournament which point it feels like it's alienating many of the players.

Note that HALF THE PLAYERS in Ragnarok won't get to play. It doesn't help that the 'top players' (and why Robo is not one of these leaders over many of these players I have no idea) will use this in order to SECURE their placement and bring themselves and one other scrubbier player to the bracket there by making it almost guaranteed they'll gain at least T16.

Which point then we have even more stupid ideas like "No FF1 characters" for a certain pool aswell which is even more convoluted.

Again I would like to ask though: Why was this not even DISCUSSED before Ragnarok? I don't give a flying monkey's uncle that this isn't about Ragnarok, it CLEARLY IS due to the fact we're using the same idea. This topic stemmed off DUE to Ragnarok. It IS about Ragnarok AND future tournaments.

But all you guys want to do is "Oh we want something new." Why don't you ask the majority of the 'top named players' and many of them will tell you of their disgust of the drafting system that's used in Ragnarok. Quite simply put: ALOT OF US DON'T LIKE IT. The Drafting system makes the Ragnarok tournament look like a joke. It'll also make ANY FUTURE TOURNAMENTS LOOK LIKE A JOKE.

Oh and as for the 'Single Elimination to Double Elimination' thing, that is a different story. Double Elimination is a tried and tested method for tournament settings. It worked, we're using it. But this drafting system isn't a tried or tested method and you guys want to talk about using it in future tournaments despite the fact that Ragnarok is at the moment doing it and you guys want to talk about it without letting me talk about Ragnarok.

guys the bottom line is: If it doesn't work in Ragnarok, it won't work in future tournaments. So you HAVE TO TALK ABOUT RAGNAROK.

here is my own personal feelings also: Imagine if EVO did a drafting system like this. It'd take FOREVER. Not only this but it would cause alot of trouble and confusion among many of the players. Are they going to give up what's a tried and tested method? NO.

Let's put Sports into this also: Could you imagine what it's like with a manual drafting system? Could you imagine in Football/Soccer if Brazil were like "uhn... we'll pick France, Wales and Spain to play against us." or if it was random, you might have Brazil face off against Germany in the first round.

If that's to theoretical for you guys to grasp around, I think I'll give up. But in other words, pay attention to Ragnarok before you start making assumptions on how we can use the drafting system. And let me say right now: Almost no one but the Ninjas and a couple of people in this thread like the Drafting system.

[Mikeee]

One of the things that has come up in this topic is that this argument is similar to the argument for Double Elimination back at the time of Dissidence, because there were people originally opposed to that idea. I think that saying that is an interpretation of events that includes a lot of misunderstandings.

The Draft System and Double Elimination are almost completely opposite. While Double Elimination was implemented to reduce the number of aspects that could hurt a players placing that was out of their control this Draft system only increases those odds.

Allow me to expand upon that argument. This Drafting system may not be abused, and by all means it could create incredibly even pools. There is, however, a possibility for this system to be abused horribly. What most seem to be worried about is that everyone will pick the easy players and make their road easier. I'm personally not really concerned with this because if everyone did that, the pools would eventually balance out. The real problem where this could become totally unfair would be if someone started targeting all of the best players for their pool. Let's take a Random, not related to Rag example: if there was a pool run by Paru. Let's say with his picks, Paru decided to draft into his pool RoboDestroyer, NeroMD, Slinky Slink, Kraid, and Judah. All of these players could easily be considered worthy of making it into a bracket. However, because only two of them can make it out of a pool, 4 players who otherwise deserve a shot to play in the bracket would be denied that chance. Obviously this is an extreme example, but it's meant to be. I'm just trying to show how potentially disastrous a Draft Pools system could be on a tournament.

Now, on the flipside, all the data from Dissidence says that Double Elimination eliminated one of the biggest issues in a non-seeded tournament: the aspect of a player's bracket position possibly leading to a placing that does not do justice to their skills. There are 2 examples from Dissidence that really stick out in my mind, and those are Slinky Slink and Paru. Slinky lost in the first round of winners, because he had to play against Funky, who later ended up winning the tournament. If it had been Single Elimination, Slinky would have been eliminated and tied for last place. He went on to win 4 matches in the Loser's Bracket, however, and placed 7th after being Eliminated by Paru. Paru lost to Nero in the 2nd Round of the Winner's Bracket. He then went on to win 6 matches in the Loser's Bracket before finally being eliminated by Dave in the Loser's Finals. He got 3rd place. There two example show the extraordinary benefit that Double Elimination had on the Dissidence. Without it, the results would have been horribly skewed by aspects completely out of a player's control. In a competitive atmosphere the tournaments should always be designed to keep gimmicks away from the results. The entire point is to allow for the results to be a fair representation of player skill. There will always be aspects that are out of the player's control that the TO can't fix, such as lag, but as long as something can be prevented it shouldn't be played into. While I personally don't think that any tournament with under 100 entrants needs any sort of pools, if you do do pools they absolutely must be seeded to make things fair. Drafting leaves the potential for a completely broken setup.

Again, I honestly don't see how a Draft System benefits the tournament in any way, while Double Elimination very surely does. If someone can point out one way that this system adds a significant improvement to this tournament, I would be completely open to hearing it and accepting it. But honestly, any system of Drafting Pools seems to be different just for the sake of being different.The only arguments for it I've heard floating around are that it helps to let "friends play and people settle rivalries", which I feel is the purpose of friendlies, not tournaments; and that it would be too hard to seed this tournament because there are so many new players. I seriously doubt that, because Dissidence had 32 players, in comparison with Get Salty's 54 players. I didn't really run into any problems while seeding.

[Veysey]

And that certainly makes a lot of sense, Mikeee. I definitely agree that one of the biggest problems with Rag was that it promoted abuse despite what kind of abuse that may be.


Again, I honestly don't see how a Draft System benefits the tournament in any way, while Double Elimination very surely does. If someone can point out one way that this system adds a significant improvement to this tournament, I would be completely open to hearing it and accepting it. But honestly, any system of Drafting Pools seems to be different just for the sake of being different.

First I'd like to say that the biggest perk I like about drafting where users control at least some of it is that those newcomers or lesser players get a chance to play against the big guys they'd otherwise never even think of asking to play. If leaders were seeded and users had a chance at picking their group, I also find it interesting that they could potentially pick groups where they knew a few matchups were in their favor. Again, (since some people seem to be getting pretty upset over it all), does this mean I think we should? Not necessarily, but those are some points that I like about the process.

Of course I agree that this isn't unbiased but the concept behind it perks my interest. If there was a drafting process for example that simply worked to place players in divisions of the Double Elim (no prelims or anything) and two top players were seeded to either side of each division - then others got to bid on divisions - they could try to bid on divisions with ideal matchups or possibly pros they've wanted to face. What does it offer? It gives newcomers a chance to use their head and try to give themselves the best opportunity. It's basically the opposite of seeding pros away from each other - where you're potentially giving the pros easy wins for the first few rounds, instead you'd be balancing that out by giving a bit of power back to those who could have been placed next to Dave, Funky, Kraid, Wedge, etc. and give them the ability to "prepare". Even if they're going to get slaughtered anyways, I'm sure players would be a little more open to realizing they just suck if they chose their placement (and hopefully be inspired to improve) rather than blame it entirely on bad luck/placement.

Either way, I said it before, and I'll say it again, I'm not for or against anything - I simply find a lot of interest in the subject and want to hear what others are thinking.

---

@Kraid Yes this topic is because of Ragnarok. I think most agree that something went horribly wrong with Ragnarok... what happens when something goes wrong? Naturally you want to know why. Those who question further might ask "Well, how could it have been done to actually work?". And ta-da! You have this topic. And no matter what happens in this topic it won't (well... I guess that's up to the TOs, but it shouldn't) effect Ragnarok in the least. They've made their mistake - now it's time to learn from it. That's how I see this topic anyways =/

Ideas *coughexamplescough* like "No FF1 characters" were used to explain what Haruhiist was saying in the original post. Does that mean I agree? No. Does it stop me from being interested? Of course not. I like hearing others opinions and what they have to say about it all - maybe I'm playing Devil's Advocate a bit and I shouldn't be but by challenging others ideas, you're trying to draw out the reasonings and make people understand why they believe in what they do. In that regard, Mikeees post was pretty awesome.

Believe it or not, I've been trying to keep my personal beliefs out of this since they aren't very refined. My lack of tournament experience keeps me from shooting off my mouth about how I think everything should be. Does that mean I shouldn't say anything? Only if I don't feel it doesn't contribute/others feel what I have to say isn't contributing... I'm only contributing in what ways I feel I can without hindering the discussion at hand.

[Draec Khin]

Most of the people I seemingly deal with and speak to think that Ragnarok is joke for many reasons, the big one being the draftting reason.

Most people you interact with. How about those you don't. Raganrok is not a joke tourney, if you wanna talk about joke tounreys do it elsewhere and there are far worse tourneys than this. So far Dissidence, KAoS, and Ragnarok are among top 3 tounreys.


And then let me make another thing clear: Say we have a drafting system, that will ALSO need to be seeded which actually takes FAR more work than simply double elimination.

Any system takes work and any system can be refined. Please don't take out those ideas that seem complicated and a lot of work. Any tourney takes a lot of work.



But Kraid, you gallant stallion, what if we just RANDOMISE THE POOLS COMPLETELY.

Oh yes that's just ingenious. I'm so glad you mentioned that because it's THE MOST RETARDED THING YOU CAN DO. If you do it at random, you could have one pool full of no named players while in another pool you could have Dave, Funky, Robo and Wedge. Remember, only two of those apparently go through.

You are being too simplistic here. No one outlined in stone how exactly randomization/seeding will be done. There are many ways of doing it. No one is truly implying the above to happen with Dave, Funk, and bla bla bla in there (top 10). Don't jump to conclusions. [more later on this to follow up your next line of thought]


Then at which point the people who entered the tournament in the first place may never get through. The seeding process gets destroyed.

"But Kraid, you magnificent and cunning british dude, what if we SEED the drafting process, will that make you happy?"

It'd be better than completely randomising it, but it's still a bad idea. Let me explain: I again will use Ragnarok since it's using the drafting system.

The Ninjas wanted to use the Drafting system because they, quite simply put it, don't know how to seed at all. How in hell will pools help? Well it means that people won't be able to play in the proper tournament which point it feels like it's alienating many of the players.

Wow. Assumptions and Assery here. Again you are too simplistic. The Ninja's know how to seed. Don't call them incompetent. Drafting can seperate top 16 into groups and allocate other players properly. Instead of bashing the idea think how his can be done.


Note that HALF THE PLAYERS in Ragnarok won't get to play. It doesn't help that the 'top players' (and why Robo is not one of these leaders over many of these players I have no idea) will use this in order to SECURE their placement and bring themselves and one other scrubbier player to the bracket there by making it almost guaranteed they'll gain at least T16.

This was said before I think that you can play a lot more times and players than in double elimination using round robin.


Which point then we have even more stupid ideas like "No FF1 characters" for a certain pool aswell which is even more convoluted.

Again I would like to ask though: Why was this not even DISCUSSED before Ragnarok? I don't give a flying monkey's uncle that this isn't about Ragnarok, it CLEARLY IS due to the fact we're using the same idea. This topic stemmed off DUE to Ragnarok. It IS about Ragnarok AND future tournaments.


What is wrong with current events inspiring changes and talk for future changes. It was a great idea and the community picked up on it. That is how all things in life work. There is nothing wrong with stemming this discussion because of Ragnarok.


But all you guys want to do is "Oh we want something new." Why don't you ask the majority of the 'top named players' and many of them will tell you of their disgust of the drafting system that's used in Ragnarok. Quite simply put: ALOT OF US DON'T LIKE IT. The Drafting system makes the Ragnarok tournament look like a joke. It'll also make ANY FUTURE TOURNAMENTS LOOK LIKE A JOKE.

This is a democracy. Everyone has rights here and the right to voice themselves and work for changes. Top player opinion is not the only one nor is the best one. Skill in dissidia and what not has nothing to do with making up systems and the way things run.

[rshadowkirby]

yah no im sorry but if there is ever a tourney where a gimmick is implemented where its like HEY GUYS LETS BAN THIS CHARACTER FOR THIS POOL OF DRAFTS

not only will that create problems but it will be downright STUPID this is a toruney, its the only time people want to play hardcore and thus NOT friendlies

WHY would you ban characters that could possibly be someones main or an ideal counterpick

thats the most broken concept ive ever heard of to DESTROY a tournament

im up for discussing new things and w/e

but banning a character to make thiings more interesting? are you KIDDING ME HOW pray tell would that be benificical in a forum where EVERY character is represented (except for cecil and shantotto)

[Proximately]

There are a lot of terms here... could someone explain what the following means in a practical manner?

1. Seed
2. Draft
3. Double-elimination

I have some ideas about what 2 and 3 are but I'm not sure. :-/ I feel like I need to know what these mean before getting involved with this discussion.

[Draec Khin]

There is a major problem in this thread:

1. TALKING ABOUT DRAFT (this thread)
2. ROUND-ROBIN
3. DOUBLE ELIMINATION
4. RAGNAROK
5. OTHER TOURNAMENTS

We are all talking different things here. The idea is can we use drafting regardless of double elimination or round robin. If we wanna talk about round robin vs double elimination or a hybrid we can do that in a different thread.

Here is my view on drafting regardless of the system (double elimination or round robin.) It just so happens that it works better with round robin.

A Draft allows people to be placed properly in a bracket with a choice where to go (either leaders make that choice or the players.) Who makes the choice is also a completely different discussion. Regardless, a draft is better than random with seeding in my view because participants can influence on their odds and it also adds excitement.

Obviously some seeding is necessary to prevent top players to be pitted against each other, but I personally don't see why only seeding with randomization will be better. Example, Funky gets seeded and Slink doesn't. But for some mad random reason Funky and Slink get pitted against each other. Is that fair? I say not. Drafting in some form will allow Slink to have a choice or influence on where he wants to go, but he has no control who will join him later. I think drafting with participants choice is an awesome idea, and much better than random. If Slink wants to play Funk he can choose to or if he wants to try to avoid Funk he can do that to. In random some get unlucky and some gets lucky. I don't have to mention how a lot of n00bie players got free rides because they had experts who beat them and a lot f byes because of just seeding. Drafting puts emphasis on everyone rather than just experts.

And Slayer I get your point clearly except what would happen if somehow when Slink lost to Funk, got placed in the losers bracket, but instead of facing someone average he faced Dave because Dave lost to some new rising star. Not exactly fair is it? There are holes everywhere and drafting is not gonna solve all problems, but it definitely gives control to the player. Why leave it to fate? Again giving some rudimentary choice to the player where they wanna go is still a choice and the power to influence your future.

Side note: In Ragnarok some people were honored that they were picked. Because it was their wish to fight specific people since they can never make it to them.

@Proximately

Just read up the wiki here:
draft - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_%28sports%29
seed - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seed_%28sports%29
double-elimination - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_elimination
round-robin - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round-robin_tournament

[Dave880]

Mikeee your argument is godlike <3 I love you baby.



Side note: In Ragnarok some people were honored that they were picked. Because it was their wish to fight specific people since they can never make it to them.


I don't think Kirbs was too happy with me picking him in my pool :rolleyes:

[Zane]

Draec Khin I agree with pretty much everything you've said. I like this system, the only reason people are even picking at it. Is do to the leaders slowing down on picking people.

I mean no one said one bad thing or made a big deal at all, tell the slow down happened.

Now people want to change things and change Ragnarok, just so things can start on July 8th.

People really is the date that big of deal to you, the host sorry the Ninjas want this system to work, the idea is new lets try it out.

I say give a leader 3 days or 5 or 4 take your pick. Too chose someone if not skip them and move on to the next guy or girl. Then the person who didn't pick can chose someone when its their turn again.

If its your turn too pick someone for your team leaders just pick. Don't let this slow you down.:)

[Dave880]

^ When you assign a date on when a Tournament starts, it shouldn't be alter at all. 75+ people are preparing themselves for July 8th and many of these participates RARELY use the forums. Many just signed up and left until July 8th. Of course its their responsibility but in past events especially in Dissidence there has been miscommunication on when a tournament starts.

http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1177

Now this is just one person in Dissidence... Can you imagine if this happens in Rag >.>?

[Draec Khin]

I don't think Kirbs was too happy with me picking him in my pool :rolleyes:

I did say some people were honored. There will be cases where some would be unhappy, but random could have placed him near you as well. I am not saying the current system is the system -- there are many ways of improving it. One is when participants like kribs choose to pick which bracket they wanna fill.

Delaying a tournament may be a bad idea, but if we come to a conclusion fast enough why not incorporate new fresh improved system and delay. At this point this discussion is for future tournaments, or that is the way I see it. I see a problem when something moves before the date, but not postponed (after the date). Happens all the time in exams, finals, project delivery. Dissidia community is not a stock market trading environment with hard deadlines.

[Zane]

^ When you assign a date on when a Tournament starts, it shouldn't be alter at all. 75+ people are preparing themselves for July 8th and many of these participates RARELY use the forums. Many just signed up and left until July 8th. Of course its their responsibility but in past events especially in Dissidence there has been miscommunication on when a tournament starts.

http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1177

Now this is just one person in Dissidence... Can you imagine if this happens in Rag >.>?

I didn't think about that, I thought when you signed up you you kept up with it, but it sounds like a lot of people don't.

A lot of the leaders must just have a bad case of RL, which RL>>>>>Dissidia.

So if they don't pick after certain amount time just move on to the next guy. Gotten keep the line moving.

If we skip we can be done faster but things, might become too unorganized if we do that. I'm really starting to run out of ideas for trying too fix this.

[Hallabaloo4]

its respectable to start a tournament when it is promised to be started, stating a deadline is saying to the forums "we are all ready, everything is okay, we will start then" if a tournament host delays a tournament start date, the forums lose faith and respect in the hosts, D:

[Draec Khin]

An idea for drafting for FUTURE tournaments I just had:

Have participants at sign-ups list up to 3-5 groups (round robin) or top players (leaders) (double elimination) they would like to be pitted against. (I don't know if this should be blind so that other players cannot see each others choices). And 1 group or leader they would like to avoid unless there is no other possibility.

Example:

Participant A signs ups:
Preferred Groups/brackets
Group/Bracket A
Group/Bracket G
Group/Bracket J

Avoid
Group/Bracket B

Something like that. Ideas?

[Haruhiist]

Er, I feel like I'm overextending myself just because I'm the thread starter.. but the reason the drafting system was brought up in this thread is not to refine the system in Ragnarok. Ragnarok was the reason I thought of the drafting system, yes, but we're not here to improve on what the Ninjas tried to do (imo they should be allowed to run the tournament how they wanted to anyway, I didn't follow up on the discussion so I don't know how it went but if they wanted to try a draft tournament then so be it, it's theirs. The main problem was the time it was taking, the unfairness of the draft is something that has yet to be seen in games and results yet).

I'm just trying to bring up drafting as a fresh concept, a lot of you are thinking we should go with the tried and true double elimination tournament style simply because it works - but a lot of you are also seeing drafting as how it was implemented in Ragnarok.

The only thing drafting is about, is picking and counterpicking, removing the luck part of the randomized double elimination (with seeding) and promoting interactivity into the pre-game. Everything else can be changed, round robin, bans in groups (doesn't even need to be there), most of the things you guys are discussing can be changed in one way or another. I don't have a clear idea how, but that's what the discussion is for. :/

By the way, how could you call Ragnarok a joke tournament mainly because it was trying a new system? That's pretty stupid in my opinion, and very close-minded. If they host a tournament then they should be able to use what they want in it, calling the tournament a joke might as well be calling their organizers jokes.

[Wedge]

Completely agree with Mikeee's post entirely. I'm all for change as long as its bringing this community closer to a true competitive environment. We need to leave gimmicks at the door and do things the way all tournaments are done. As long as their is no human choice in deciding the placements of Round Robins, Double Elim ect, I have no problem. When you do a tournament, YOU NEED TO SEED.


Believe it or not, I've been trying to keep my personal beliefs out of this since they aren't very refined. My lack of tournament experience keeps me from shooting off my mouth about how I think everything should be. Does that mean I shouldn't say anything? Only if I don't feel it doesn't contribute/others feel what I have to say isn't contributing... I'm only contributing in what ways I feel I can without hindering the discussion at hand.

Honestly Vey, 90% of the people who participate in tournaments here don't completely comprehend the concept of a competitive environment. You're in that 10% so no worries.

And overall yes its a great idea to experiment, however tournaments of all kinds have been done in the past and we have effective methods of operation. You have to know the fine line between trying out an idea you think may work and one thats obviously just impractical, prejudice, and breaks the basic fundamentals of tournaments.

Pretty much everyone has said whats needed to be said so I'll leave it at that (and I'm not too good at conveying a good point of view either :P)

[Kraid]

Most people you interact with. How about those you don't. Raganrok is not a joke tourney, if you wanna talk about joke tounreys do it elsewhere and there are far worse tourneys than this. So far Dissidence, KAoS, and Ragnarok are among top 3 tounreys.



No, it's a joke tournament. But hey, I'm not going to talk about why exactly it is, but the drafting system is one of the many reasons it's a complete joke.

And how is Ragnarok in the 'top 3'? Dissidence and KAoS I understand but Ragnarok I doubt it.



Any system takes work and any system can be refined. Please don't take out those ideas that seem complicated and a lot of work. Any tourney takes a lot of work.


No, a lot of tournaments don't require this much work. The drafting system makes tournaments like five times more complicated, especially when it comes to trying to make pools (which is stupid in such a big tournament) and doing a drafting process that allows players to easily choose who they can fight and who they can beat quite easily.




You are being too simplistic here. No one outlined in stone how exactly randomization/seeding will be done. There are many ways of doing it. No one is truly implying the above to happen with Dave, Funk, and bla bla bla in there (top 10). Don't jump to conclusions. [more later on this to follow up your next line of thought]

You're right: I may be being to simplistic, but the saying goes "Simple is best."

Also though my point is valid: what could happen COULD happen. There's always a chance that for randomised drafting, the seeding process could be messed beyond doubt. It's better to be aware of what could happen than to actually HAVE it happen.

And yes there are many ways of doing it: But don't think you think that people at EVO and Brawl and other communities have tried other ways? Let us stick with what's simple instead of talking about in the future how to complicate our tournaments completely and make the rest of the tournaments UNFUN.




Wow. Assumptions and Assery here. Again you are too simplistic. The Ninja's know how to seed. Don't call them incompetent. Drafting can seperate top 16 into groups and allocate other players properly. Instead of bashing the idea think how his can be done.

No assumption here: The Ninjas (More specifically Spyder) admitted to not knowing how to seed this tournament and that's why the drafting process happened in the first place. This is also why the thread was made in the beginning was because of what Spyder said and wanted to do. I should note again that the Ninjas also ignored what majority wanted (A simple double elimination bracket) and instead went to a pool system with this long winded drafting process.

But Kraid, you ordinary moderator, now you're bringing Ragnarok into the system again. This is true. But look at what's happening here and you can apply it to future tournaments where all this hubbub can continue on. Again I would like to point out that we're now in the middle of discussing the Drafting process now, when we were in the middle of doing the drafting process instead of before hand to see what effects it could have to the Ragnarok tournament. This just makes Ragnarok look more incompetently run than it should be.




This was said before I think that you can play a lot more times and players than in double elimination using round robin.

Not exactly: Here you have a chance of not even being able to enter the tournament itself. This actually makes future tournaments a lot harder to seed as well. For example: I know I can beat Xeltos in Dissidia. I'm just going to ALWAYS pick Xeltos because I know full well what he can do.

However Xeltos might be able to beat someone say Spyder. But Xeltos may never get the chance to ever go into the double elimination bracket where he might be able to make T8.




What is wrong with current events inspiring changes and talk for future changes. It was a great idea and the community picked up on it. That is how all things in life work. There is nothing wrong with stemming this discussion because of Ragnarok.

Again I should point out the majority of the community wanted a simple double elimination bracket. Very few people wanted a Pools system and the majority in this case was ignored.




This is a democracy. Everyone has rights here and the right to voice themselves and work for changes. Top player opinion is not the only one nor is the best one. Skill in dissidia and what not has nothing to do with making up systems and the way things run.

Ah the democracy card, one of my favourites. However in this case you can't use that card: Imagine if congress were greatly against the war in Iraq, but a select few congress weren't. Say the majority were against the war in Iraq.

Using your example of it being a democracy, even though the majority oppose the war in Iraq, America would end up going to war with Iraq any ways because a few congressmen were like "Hell no, let's ignore it all any ways."

[Bloodsword83]

I have a few things I would like to say.

Kraid, I don't believe calling the tournament a "joke" openly and DURING the tournament appropriate. It seems completely rude to the Ninjas, who are putting a lot of work into this. I believe you should refrain from insulting this tournament until you feel comfortable posting ALL of your reasons.

Seeding:

Fuck seeding. That's where all this bullshit is coming from, right? Then lets cut it out. Oh, so Funky and Dave have to fight each other first round. Big effing deal. It isn't like Dave or Funky will be completely out of the tournament in Double Elimination. And in round robin pools, the best move on. To me, it looks like if Kraid, Wedge, Dave, Funky, and...I dunno, Rosco P. Coltrain were in the same pool, then the best of the best would move on.

"But they all deserve to go on to double elimination!" BULL. They're in the same pool. Only the top 2 deserve to go on. They knew when they entered the tournament that this could happen. Now it's time to put their skills where their mouths are and EARN THEIR SPOT.

What truly makes me angry is that all your bellyaching (to all the dissenters in general) about Ragnarök made the NINs change their tournament. This is their tournament. I thought that it was a very refreshing idea, and it also made it very much a spectator sport. It's kinda like watching the NFL draft, I suppose. Just seeing who's going to be where, it's FUCKING EXCITING! When I saw the draft thread disappear, I was all like "BULL! That's stupid!"

In closing:

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h135/Bloodsword83/Slayers20REVOLUTION20-200220-2008.jpg

[Veysey]

For seeding, here are the reasons I've been exposed to over the course of my life:

- Seed so that better players don't meet until later to help excitement and interest in the tournament. (Basically for the spectators). It's feared that if a number of top rated competitors are eliminated early on, people will lose interest.
- Seed so that when people gamble on teams, odds properly reflect their tournament placement and who they need to face. (Again, for the spectators, not participants).
- Seed to award players on a well played regular season. We don't have a "regular season" here at DF, so I guess it must be to award them for well played previous tournaments.

Anyways, I've never known of any other reasons, so if anyone wants to enlighten me, that'd be greatly appreciated.


What truly makes me angry is that all your bellyaching (to all the dissenters in general) about Ragnarök made the NINs change their tournament. This is their tournament.

Your statement isn't quite right. No one made the Ninjas change anything. From what we've seen, they changed because they thought they were doing the community a favor and giving them what they wanted. No one MADE them do it. The Ninjas could have just as easily kept with their original plan after announcing the signups and dates, but THEY decided not to. No one is at fault, it was simply a choice. Whether or not it was the right choice? Well let's watch the tournament unfold and see.

Oh, and a side note: I found it interesting and funny that I was watching DBZ last night and they used a single elimination, blind draw for their Budokai tournaments. Even more interesting that it ended up pitting Goku and Vegeta against each other in the first round :P

[Kraid]

Kraid, I don't believe calling the tournament a "joke" openly and DURING the tournament appropriate. It seems completely rude to the Ninjas, who are putting a lot of work into this. I believe you should refrain from insulting this tournament until you feel comfortable posting ALL of your reasons.

I am comfortable with my reasons.


Fuck seeding. That's where all this bullshit is coming from, right? Then lets cut it out. Oh, so Funky and Dave have to fight each other first round. Big effing deal. It isn't like Dave or Funky will be completely out of the tournament in Double Elimination. And in round robin pools, the best move on. To me, it looks like if Kraid, Wedge, Dave, Funky, and...I dunno, Rosco P. Coltrain were in the same pool, then the best of the best would move on.


Say Dave and Funky faced each other in the first round. One of them will be knocked into Losers bracket. Now from then on anyone who has to face them in losers is basically just going to get annihilated.

Also I should note that now players are also getting ranked. This makes seeding EVEN MORE IMPORTANT due to the fact that if they get a bad seed originally, they'll have a MUCH harder time regaining the ranks they may have gained.

Yea, it's the Ninja's tournament. But you must understand: They may be the ones hosting it, but it's the PUBLIC that has to play.

... I had an entire analogy I was going to put to this post. But I decided against it due to the fact it may start another debate.

[Spyder]

No assumption here: The Ninjas (More specifically Spyder) admitted to not knowing how to seed this tournament and that's why the drafting process happened in the first place. This is also why the thread was made in the beginning was because of what Spyder said and wanted to do. I should note again that the Ninjas also ignored what majority wanted (A simple double elimination bracket) and instead went to a pool system with this long winded drafting process.


Sorry to cut in, Kraid, but that is an assumption you are making. Nowhere did I state or even imply that we do not know how to seed this tournament. Adopting a different method does not mean that we are ignorant to how things have been done before, nor does it mean that we did not consider it. As I stated on the Ragnarok thread, we had many options. And we are well aware of how regular seeding is done.

Also, noting that we have not went with double elimination has no place in this argument. However, even you do not have proof that double elimination is preferred to the round robin (minus the draft). There are quite a few people on these forums who are extremely fond of the round robin system, and I sense that we will be seeing it more often from now on.

One thing I would like to state Kraid is this: when arguing your point, keep accusations and subjective opinion to yourself. This means that bolding words such as joke/retarded/stupid does not really drive your argument anywhere. All it shows is that you are unhappy with how the Ragnarok is proceeding because it is not proceeding the way you want it. However, in order to argue properly, you must stay objective and see all reasoning and all sides. Not just yours. We have decided to change the draft because we listen, and because we do consider all arguments, all suggestions, and all point of views.

Also you can't really judge any tournament until it is finished. Ragnarok hasn't even started.

Now I would like this thread to finally get to the meat of the argument. Talking about deadlines, how tournaments should be run, and whether you believe Ragnarok is a joke or not is not part of this argument. Drafting is. And it is very fine well to use Ragnarok as an example, however going on a tangent to vent your frustrations is not. Also keep in mind that the drafting that was supposed to be used in Ragnarok is different from the type of drafting proposed in this thread.

Now, what I want to see is proper reasoning in this thread--which has been provided by quite amount of individuals. Insulting or accusing will get us nowhere and it is certainly not a proper way to argue.

[Kraid]

Sorry to cut in, Kraid, but that is an assumption you are making. Nowhere did I state or even imply that we do not know how to seed this tournament. Adopting a different method does not mean that we are ignorant to how things have been done before, nor does it mean that we did not consider it. As I stated on the Ragnarok thread, we had many options. And we are well aware of how regular seeding is done.

Actually Spyder you stated "We have to many unknowns we don't know how to seed it so we're doing a different format." You might have deleted that post now but it was there as people like me, Wedge AND Dave all saw that post.


Also, noting that we have not went with double elimination has no place in this argument. However, even you do not have proof that double elimination is preferred to the round robin (minus the draft). There are quite a few people on these forums who are extremely fond of the round robin system, and I sense that we will be seeing it more often from now on.

Actually again you did do something like this. Dave even stated "You should do a double elimination tournament to keep things simpler because there will be a lot of people who will enter Ragnarok." So everyone agreed on doing a Double Elimination. Again I don't know where exactly that is, but I know we all spoke about it. (Especially since I remember Dave interjecting on that part. I should also note that again people like Wedge also remember this.)


One thing I would like to state Kraid is this: when arguing your point, keep accusations and subjective opinion to yourself. This means that bolding words such as joke/retarded/stupid does not really drive your argument anywhere. All it shows is that you are unhappy with how the Ragnarok is proceeding because it is not proceeding the way you want it. However, in order to argue properly, you must stay objective and see all reasoning and all sides. Not just yours. We have decided to change the draft because we listen, and because we do consider all arguments, all suggestions, and all point of views.

I wasn't bolding any words except a couple. Everyone else bolded my words in quotes. I've seen all sides and reasonings. You chose Drafting because you ignored what everyone else had said. Again, I quite clearly remember in the thread we discussed about this that everyone would prefer double elimination since Ragnarok would be such a big tournament that doing something else would be stupid.

Oh and yes I did consider both sides of the argument. I even posted scenarios off how the drafting system would work later on as well. Please pay attention to my posts instead of skimming through them and going "Well that was B.S., Kraid obviously seems to hate us blah blah blah." and stop assuming what my posts COULD be containing and start reading what my posts DO contain.


Also you can't really judge any tournament until it is finished. Ragnarok hasn't even started.

Ragnarok hasn't started yet due to this whole drafting Bullshit. If this was an ordinary tournament WE WOULD HAVE ALREADY STARTED. Hell we might even be on Winner's Semi by now. Everyone else has already made the argument that the Drafting process is taking up way to much time, in fact far more time than it should have. We wasted at least 5 days on this blasted thing.


Now I would like this thread to finally get to the meat of the argument. Talking about deadlines, how tournaments should be run, and whether you believe Ragnarok is a joke or not is not part of this argument. Drafting is. And it is very fine well to use Ragnarok as an example, however going on a tangent to vent your frustrations is not. Also keep in mind that the drafting that was supposed to be used in Ragnarok is different from the type of drafting proposed in this thread.

But the fact is that this thread stemmed from Ragnarok, which many people do not like. Infact there's a whole Facebook conversation I could show you showing you how everyone in the tournament really hates the drafting process in Ragnarok. If the drafting process does not work in Ragnarok, it just shows we should never draft again.

But because everyone is to busy trying to dismiss my argument due to the "Oh it's not about Ragnarok" when clearly Ragnarok spawned this mess is just idiotic.


Now, what I want to see is proper reasoning in this thread--which has been provided by quite amount of individuals. Insulting or accusing will get us nowhere and it is certainly not a proper way to argue.

I've not insulted anyone. I said Ragnarok is a joke and it is. Nothing will change the minds of myself and pretty much the rest of the leaders of the drafting process not named Veysey or are part of the Ninjas.

[Spyder]

Actually Spyder you stated "We have to many unknowns we don't know how to seed it so we're doing a different format." You might have deleted that post now but it was there as people like me, Wedge AND Dave all saw that post.

No, not quite the case. The post you are talking about is this one:



First and foremost, I would like to tell everyone that out of 59 players available for draft, 36 of these players have absolutely no record of ever being in a tournament before. That means that 36 of these players are of unknown strength and they would vary in strength. Because there is no way to tell the strength of these players, the random picking could easily place unknown, strong opponents together. However, one would say that we can easily distribute 36 of the unknown players evenly. This means that some groups will have 2 unknown players, others 3. There is still a high possibility of grouping very strong players together--some unknown and others known. However, because the system is unbiased we could just say it was bad luck that four/three extremely strong players are grouped together.

I already stated what seeding would do here. We have decided to go with different system. Two different things. No where did I state that we do not know how to do seeding. Nor did I imply it.

Actually again you did do something like this. Dave even stated "You should do a double elimination tournament to keep things simpler because there will be a lot of people who will enter Ragnarok." So everyone agreed on doing a Double Elimination. Again I don't know where exactly that is, but I know we all spoke about it. (Especially since I remember Dave interjecting on that part. I should also note that again people like Wedge also remember this.)

Yes, that is a fact. But there was also argument for the Round Robin if you do not remember and there were others who agreed with that. There is no way of telling of what was the majority at the time.

I wasn't bolding any words except a couple. Everyone else bolded my words in quotes. I've seen all sides and reasonings. You chose Drafting because you ignored what everyone else had said. Again, I quite clearly remember in the thread we discussed about this that everyone would prefer double elimination since Ragnarok would be such a big tournament that doing something else would be stupid.

We did not choose drafting because we ignored what everyone else said. In fact no one was aware that we will be using a drafting system to begin with. Once we did, people have said it wasn't unfair. We listened. That is why there is no drafting.


Ragnarok hasn't started yet due to this whole drafting Bullshit. If this was an ordinary tournament WE WOULD HAVE ALREADY STARTED. Hell we might even be on Winner's Semi by now. Everyone else has already made the argument that the Drafting process is taking up way to much time, in fact far more time than it should have. We wasted at least 5 days on this blasted thing.

Ragnarok hasn't started because it's not July 8th, yet. Sure it could've easily started earlier. But it officially starts on July 8th.


But the fact is that this thread stemmed from Ragnarok, which many people do not like. Infact there's a whole Facebook conversation I could show you showing you how everyone in the tournament really hates the drafting process in Ragnarok. If the drafting process does not work in Ragnarok, it just shows we should never draft again.

The only reason the drafting process did not work for Ragnarok, is because it has taken too long. I assure if the process would've went faster--which is one of the remedies that people are trying to provide in this thread--the drafting process would've stayed.

But because everyone is to busy trying to dismiss my argument due to the "Oh it's not about Ragnarok" when clearly Ragnarok spawned this mess is just idiotic.

And what argument is that? That people hate drafting? There needs to be reasoning behind it, no? I still don't see why drafting would be hated. Because it takes too long? Then why not think of a solution to make it faster. Because it allows some sort of bias? Is luck-draw any better? Because it's slightly complicated? If the system can be automated and be done extremely easy, would it still be as bad?

From what I see is that people just don't like to see anything different.

I've not insulted anyone. I said Ragnarok is a joke and it is. Nothing will change the minds of myself and pretty much the rest of the leaders of the drafting process not named Veysey or are part of the Ninjas.


Saying nothing will change your mind is what pretty much it means to be close-minded. I am always willing to change my mind. Always willing to listen and adapt. What would happen if I were just as adamant as you? We would still have exp to ___. We would still have lvl 100 exclusives. We would still have the sets. We would still have the draft and delay the tournament. You can't say that we don't listen or that we will never change our minds. But you apparently are not willing to even try.

[Slayer0]

Okay, since it's July 6 and the poll says most people want random pools, do that, let the tourney start and then you can all argue about it. Or argue about it anyway, but get this shit started.

[Veysey]

Okay, since it's July 6 and the poll says most people want random pools, do that, let the tourney start and then you can all argue about it. Or argue about it anyway, but get this shit started.

http://www.dissidiaforums.com/showpost.php?p=167397&postcount=8

It was already decided and we'll see things finalized soon according to that post.

[Slayer0]

All right, good to know.