Firion General Discussion

[UltimaMM]

Use this thread for general Firion gameplay questions and discussion or things that don't fit in other threads but don't warrant their own little thread.

Do not talk about assist selection, assist or EXR combos, equipment & accessories or matchups here. Please use the appropriate stickied threads in this section to keep discussion easier to find. ~Kayarine


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Firion was one of my favorite characters in the first game but the disadvantages on the ground really screwed him over.

He's really awesome now, Being able to change his combo followups is pretty co and ground dash is really useful. His lance followup is pretty amazing, can be used even if the first hit whiffs, has crazy absorb and guard staggers, it has small cooldown too. The punch followup wallrushes damn far and his bow followup has chase and is good for for gathering EX force. Straight Arrow is much faster now and crushes guard and his magic combo is good for mix up.

He's crazy with assists too, "Ground brave>Punch followup>assist>Reel Axe>Punch followup for wallrush, bow followup for chase or Double Trouble" is pretty good and can be linked from any of his ground brave attacks. Thunder/Swordblow>Ground assist>... is a pretty good combo too.

All that and I only played him at level 1. I can't wait to see Lord of Arms, Master of Arms and (the not so important any more) Shield Bash.

[Thiefcopy]

Yeah, it seems like he's gotten some much needed improvements. But has he achieved Bankai?

[Dakotaiscool]

I'd pay to see somebody hack their game to change anybody with an "Equipped Various Ultima Weapon" EX mode to "Bankai Achieved!"

[Slayer]

YES! Someone must do that and post the replay

[Kayarine]

After some quick random equipmentless battle against a lv 100 Yuna, here's a couple of things I noticed:

- It looks like it's possible to get a lot of Fires on the field. I'm not sure if it was because there was a couple of Fires reflected back at me, but at some point there was about 5 Fires onscreen.

- It seems the only possible followup after whiffing Reel Axe/Rope Knife/Lance Combo is the lance followup. Gotta press away from the opponent + O to activate it.

- Fire > Fire > Thunder + Straightarrow seems to be a nice pressure string. I don't know, though, it was just against the CPU and I still don't have many ideas of other things I can do.

- Rope Knife doesn't seem to track once it's out.

I want to play around with him more when I actually get some equipments. Getting broken by a single hit of a reflected Blizzard isn't very fun... XD

Edit: I realized that despite the fact I got a lv 100 Firion, I didn't mess around much with Weaponsmaster and Lord of Arms. :V Back to testing.

Edit 2: No, I didn't mess with assists yet. I was testing the Aerith assist.

[fal'Cie]

Rope Knife doesn't track anymore the worst thing is it can be blocked. Pity because that was one of my favourite attack to catch the block and dodge happy people off their guard and eat dem Double Trouble.

First thing to do right now would be to come up with something against the pesky mages and and the turtles.

[Grade-Zero]

Started trying him out, he feels pretty nice. Shield Bash seems to track better, the lightning part hasn't missed so far after fire or blizzard hit. Tidus's dodge moves feel like the perfect counter to Lord of Arms, but it's still a nice move, at the very least now he has a move with melee high priority on the ground. Also, it looks like aerial swordslash got a speed buff. It's spammable just like the ground version now.

[Crono]

Keep the posts coming guys, I can't do my testing till tomorrow. From what you guys posted it seems that there are no changes from Prologus... Rope Knife losing guard stagger kinda weakens his options but the sheer range, speed and having air tracking makeups for it if you know when and where to throw it (counter possibilities?) here's to to me hoping that it still breaks some attacks e.g. breaks Slashing Blow when both attacks clash.

[Grade-Zero]

I've been trying the Tifa assist with him considering she was very useful for Cloud, but it's a bit mixed. I try to use his lance followup to ground crash enemies, then use Tifa ground assist to combo into Weaponsmaster, sometimes it works, usually it doesn't. Another trick I tried was punch followup to wall crash enemies, then use Tifa air assist to combo into Straightarrow, which also only works sometimes. I'll probably try some other assists to see what works with him best.

[fal'Cie]

I have been trying Laguna as assist though and looks like it's working pretty well. All through the day I've been playing and I just Lance Followup -> Laguna assist (Ground) -> Straightarrow. Haven't missed yet but I reckon it won't work on all stages though.

[UltimaMM]

Isn't Reel Axe>Double Trouble more useful than SA since it deals brave damage as well?

[fal'Cie]

Yes that's a viable option too but there are times where the axe connects but did not reel in the opponent for some reason leading to a failed double trouble, so I opted for SA instead due to it's increase speed and it hasn't failed me.

[Grade-Zero]

It really depends on if you actually have Reel Axe. I'm probably going to take it out and replace it with Swordslash now that Straightarrow guard crushes.

[Crono]

After 2 hours of play testing here are some of my thoughts:
Ground swordslash was nerfed in that you cannot cancel it out w/ normal movement, you'll have to dodge or input another move to cancel it meaning it cannot be spammed anymore and create a walling effect. Rope Knife is still heaven sent (even w/ the nerfs on tracking and being blockable) if you know how to use it properly. Currently I'm not using Lance Combo much as it's easily blocked on reaction and the absorb it gives makes it an easy visual cue for an opponent to spam block... The good thing about Firion right now is that he somehow has an answer to every situation provided that the map has decent ground space.

I'm still perfecting my dual HP attack combos from one assist after landing double trouble. I'm calling this Dual Double Trouble, I'm still having issues w/ this combo only landing this 80% of the time. I'll be posting it once it attains 100% consistency.

[Kayarine]

Today was my first day of playing DDFF... I still haven't gotten fully used to Firion's changes yet and my abilities setup wasn't helping me much... However, here's a couple of observations:

- I've been trying a Cecil assist, it works pretty well with Firion for me. His BRV assists wall rush pretty often, which is useful in combos. I usually do (wall rush) > Cecil assist > Charge Straightarrow > (assist wall rush) > (release arrow) and it's been working well at any range. But it doesn't do that much damage... I wonder if a chase assist could be better or if I could use Reel Axe instead of Straightarrow for more damage? Although Reel Axe has more limited range than Straightarrow. (I didn't have Reel Axe equipped)
EDIT: Blargh, just realized this is old news, but this is pretty useful when you use an assist while in the air (inb4whyareyouintheairwithFirion?!). Still, is that all that can be done?

EDIT 2: So I actually devoted some time for testing some assists for my characters... I actually quite like Tidus as Firion assist now. His ground BRV assist is Sonic Buster, which wall rushes the opponent right back into the ground, making comboing into Reel Axe super easy. And if Firion happens to be in the air during that (be it because he wall rushed with Swordslash, Thunder or a chase attack), Straightarrow does HP damage.
His aerial BRV assist is Hop Step, which initiates chase. Firion can use the assist chase to combo into Weaponsmaster. It's better then a wall rush into Straightarrow because of the BRV damage before the HP part. The only downside is that sometimes it misses if the opponent got wall rushed into a vertical wall.

- Lord of Arms seems pretty good for punishing dodges. I would usually use Rope Knife or Lance Combo when close/at mid-range for attempting to punish and the opponent would dodge cancel their moves. So I decided to pull out Lord of Arms to see if I could punish their dodge and it worked. Althought that was in Edge of Madness, they could have accidentally dodged into a wall or something.
It's also useful for mixing up with ground Swordslash. If the opponent blocks pre-emptively, LoA will still hit during their block animation (it'll even get the crit boost from hitting a whiffed block)

- Using a complete chain of magic usually ended with me getting punished after the opponent FAD'd towards me. I probably should cut my chain short if that's happening, but an incomplete chain has more cooldown than a complete one, I believe. Tested it, seems both incomplete and complete chains can be dodge cancelled at the same point. Maybe even just shooting one spell can be DC'd sooner than shooting two or three. I'm not sure if I was just mistiming it or if it's true.

- Maybe I was just doing it wrong, but sometimes I'd try to use Rope Knife, the opponent would dodge it and hit me before I could cancel into the lance followup. I'm probably just screwing up though, I'm still using RK like its Dissidia version...
And also, sometimes I would catch an airborne opponent with it close to max range and it wouldn't pull them towards me. I whiffed a few Double Troubles because of that.

[fal'Cie]

O.K works well as assist too, his ground Blizzard -> Blizzaga allows a Reel Axe -> Double Trouble on ground or Straightarrow in the air. His Quick Hits -> Additional Thrust also allows for Straightarrow. (EDIT : Was on dem drugs.).

You can DC out of any time in your spell casting, I've tried it myself and have successfully evaded reflected spells and the like.

I've never liked ground Swordslash, so the "nerf" doesn't affect me much. :cool:

[Grade-Zero]

Is there any real reason to use Reel Axe now? I never really used it in the first Dissidia, but always had it equipped because Straightarrow was sucky and it was his only ranged attack that could guard crush, but now with the Straightarrow buffs I don't see many reasons to take it except for the fact that it comes out a bit faster than Straightarrow.

[Crono]

@Grade-Zero: with vanilla Dissidia I mainly switch between Reel Axe and Lance Combo depending on who my opponent is. With 012 Reel Axe is a staple for me as we've lost the unblockable Rope Knife and so I need a move that makes my opponent think twice and the tracking buff is really nice as they actually have to dodge now to avoid getting hit.

I'm still having a hard time adjusting to the non spammable swordslash and I'm thinking of permanently replacing it with Lance combo unless I'm fighting fast close range characters. The best assist for me right now is probably Laguna as it allows for Dual Double Trouble combos unless the opponent hits the wall on the first Double Trouble w/c is kinda rare even on edge of madness, his air BRV assist is pretty slow to hit wall rushed characters so it's kinda lame but you can still call him then hold straight arrow so if the opponent dodges the assist you can punish with SA the same goes if he decides to block but this is not guaranteed so that's the only thing I don't like about Laguna as an assist, not to mention how good Ragnarok Blade is when you're looking to finish your opponent.

[Kayarine]

Actually, about ground Swordslash... The fact it's still cancellable into another move is pretty useful, at least for me. You can purposefully whiff a Swordslash at mid to close range and cancel it into a Shield Bash if the opponent tries to punish it. That worked for me a few times. Of course, once the opponent is aware of that tactic, I have to mix it up with not using Shield Bash or dodging instead. And if they don't try to punish at all, free assist meter for me.

The addition of Ground Dash also makes Swordslash more viable as an offensive approach... I've been experimenting with mixing it up with Lord of Arms after a dash, but I think it's kinda risky. I may just not be very good at doing dash mixups yet, though.

And I'm liking Blizzard as a mid range aerial punisher. It's gotten me quite a lot of counterattack hits after dodging something. If it hits, I can even set up a few extra Fires.

As for the use of Reel Axe? My use for it is mainly as a combo piece. I break people pretty often with a ground wall rush > Sonic Buster assist > Reel Axe > BRV followup for break or Double Trouble if they already got broken or if DT would break them.

I also found out that Lord of Arms is occasionally a good GTFO for when people are FAD'ing towards me and try to feint with a dodge. ...Although any decent HP attack would probably accomplish the same for any character. :V

[Grade-Zero]

Not sure if I'll take Reel Axe in the end, even though having it for comboing sounds nice. Having Swordslash, Lance Combo and Rope Knife for ground brave attacks feels a bit awkward, but it seems to be better overall unless I feel like I really need Reel Axe, which so far isn't the case considering I can't ever land the stupid thing. I may actually take ground Straightarrow as well considering I'm not going to be using Reel Axe, but it may not be a good idea since it may not be worth the CP cost.

[Crono]

@Kayarine: Yeah, I've been also doing that swordslash cancel into <insert move here> but it's not working great for me the cancellable frames is too long for it to bait and punish those that have 11-13 frame attacks but I'm not giving up on the move I will just have to get used into not spamming it like before, I will also try using it on the offensive every now and then like what you are doing but I believe that Firion is designed for mid range and swordslash is mainly used as a GTFO move but it never hurts to try and surprise them sometimes. :) I'm definitely gonna try Blizzard this time but for the moment Thunder is getting the job done for me (insane pressure combined with fire) and I can't replace Fire or Air swordlash for it.

Btw, Sonic Buster is from?

I think Dual Rope Knife does more damage though. My combo goes like Rope Knife>Double Trouble>Laguna/Sephiroth Assist>Rope Knife> Double Trouble or BRV chain.

@Grade-Zero: If you're only concerned with Reel Axe as a combo piece then you could just use Dual Rope Knife combo as it does more damage I think.

@All: Can anyone enlighten me how to properly use lance combo or what's the best use for it? Personally I can't see it being good outside of it's 360 shield effect, the absorb is like a visual cue for the opponent to block and it's not as fast as Sonic Break(Cloud), the bait(absorb)>BRV chain on mid range could be decent but it's too telegraphed...

[Kayarine]

Well, yeah, I don't spam it (didn't have much time to play DFF to get that habit XD). I only do it a couple of times when the opponent is waiting for me to do something. I try to do it at the right distance to make them have to dash at me first or otherwise approach to attack so I have time to cancel it. The few times I whiffed at very close range got me punished, though.

Sonic Buster is from Tidus. But I've been thinking of trying a different assist, I find it hard to use his Hop Step for punishing...

Well, I also like Reel Axe in the combo because of its range. Sometimes the opponent will get knocked down in a ledge or something.

And I haven't tried using Lance Combo since after my first day. Too used to having Reel Axe. XD

[Grade-Zero]

I've been using Lance Combo as a more reliable way to get in Double Trouble, although I only really use it when an enemy whiffs an attack or to surprise them up close considering it's faster than Rope Knife. For some reason when I use Rope Knife, sometimes it doesn't drag them in and I'm left swinging at nothing in the air with Double Trouble like a fool, it's getting frustrating.

[Kayarine]

From what I experimented with, Rope Knife > Double Trouble will miss if you press square for DT too soon (before RK pulls them in). Today I tried delaying my DT input and I didn't miss at all. Yesterday I was mashing DT out and it missed a few times.

[Grade-Zero]

Yeah I noticed that too, I've been delaying and it works better, but it still whiffs sometimes. Shantotto is one character it happens to more often against for me, maybe because she's short. I haven't whiffed Double Trouble with Lance Combo yet though so I keep it, plus it's still decently fast. As for his brave follow ups, I've been mostly using the punch follow up. The suction lance is strong, but I can't get it to work considering after they dodge the main attack, it just leaves them dodging longer.

[Kayarine]

From the matches I had so far, I only use the lance followup on whiff if they try to attack me. Otherwise it's just not worth using it just to whiff as well, as it would get easily punishable a la Wind Shear.

For the followups when I actually land a hit, I like using the lance followup still. It allows me to combo with assist easily. The punch is good for that hit for a break, but I rarely use it unless using it would wall rush the opponent. The bow followup is nice for gathering EX force with chase, but I almost never use it.

[Grade-Zero]

Yeah, I've been forgetting about assists. Lance followup is pretty good for those, but I've only used Tifa assist so far so I can't get any good combos with it. The damage on it was nerfed to oblivion sadly, although delaying it to trick enemies about to attack you is pretty helpful. Also, I've been testing Lord of Arms, that attack before the first wave comes out is pretty nice against halo campers, I wonder how fast it is.

[Kotei]

Here is a nice video I just found, showing off all Firion's changes in Duodecim:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMnE9Q77m80

Very nice.

[Grade-Zero]

I wonder, could anyone find out the approximate range for the first hit of Lord of Arms? The part where he raises his weapons up. I know it's decently fast, but it only hits a certain range above him that I don't completely know.

[Disaster Jensen]

is it just me or did they tighten the hit bot of shield bash and give you less invincibility frames went he does the follow up? It just doesnt feel the same anymore. not much as a bripe because its no longer the get out of jail free card, takes more focus to do.

[Grade-Zero]

I did a bit of testing with Lord of Arms, the hitbox appears to start about a character above him I'd say, and ends a bit higher than that. Think of the starting hitbox to be a bit like Meteorain's, a way to catch guys directly above you and smash them down.

[Grade-Zero]

I honestly haven't noticed it. It's worked the same for me as it usually does. One thing that's really been helpful is Shield Bashing assists though. Bash that guy, then sent your magic flying at the enemy. Also, I did testing on Lord of Arms. Although I don't know the frame data, I know the actual hitbox of the rising weapon part. I made a video so people could see it. Because of this I'd say that it would be recommended to map Lord of Arms to neutral square so you can use the upward strike when it's necessary.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HMAa-XXdlA

[Khell]

Finally got the Prologus CPU Firion to actually agree with me for once and tested Blood Weapon's properties in comparison to the previous game. In DFF, Blood Weapon would drain 2x the damage dealt in HP if you scored an HP attack using Double Trouble (any branch) or the Melee Shield Bash (with the daggers). Unfortunately, this didn't transfer in DDFF.

[fal'Cie]

I honestly haven't noticed it. It's worked the same for me as it usually does. One thing that's really been helpful is Shield Bashing assists though. Bash that guy, then sent your magic flying at the enemy. Also, I did testing on Lord of Arms. Although I don't know the frame data, I know the actual hitbox of the rising weapon part. I made a video so people could see it. Because of this I'd say that it would be recommended to map Lord of Arms to neutral square so you can use the upward strike when it's necessary.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HMAa-XXdlA

I just put it on my down square anyways since I've gotten too used to SB on square and SA on up + square.

Speaking of which, what abilities do you guys give him this time? I personally have omni air/omni ground (I like playing with WR -> Assist -> LoA), the dash boosts, counterattack, evasion boosts. I will be looking into precisions when I get my NA game.

[Grade-Zero]

I liked Down Square on Lord of Arms too, but I changed it to neutral because it's so hard to hit enemies that are directly above with it by using anything that isn't neutral square, so I've had to adapt. So far I have Omni Ground Dash, Riposte, Counterattack, speed boost+, and probably others I forgot about. Precision Block sadly is worthless on Firion, I tested it because I thought that it would block ranged mid projectiles and if it worked with Shield Bash, it would be potentially broken. Not only does Precision Block still make you stagger when blocking a ranged mid attack, it doesn't work with blocking abilities. Precision Dodge seems worth looking into though. I'll probably change my abilities when I test them more.

[Crono]

@Grade-Zero: I never knew that LoA has that much anti air range so I find your video really useful. I have LoA mapped on forward + square and I'm not having troubles pulling it off even if they are above me, I'm using the new camera view on options though. I also want to map it to neutral square but shield bash is more useful for me when in tight situations so for me it has priority over LoA. Hopefully we could have more Firion discoveries in the weeks to come. :)

[Grade-Zero]

Is Omni Air Dash or Omni Air Dash + any good on him? I keep Free Air Dash on him in case I need to get to someone above me and smack them down with Swordslash, but I'm not sure if it's ideal. I don't want to get screwed over on stages where Air Dash won't work like that FFXI stage.

[Kotei]

You must equip Free Air Dash, its a staple. However, Omni Air Dash is rather useless for Firion, the only reason for going in the air with Firion is mostly punishing and going for Ex Cores. In that regard, there is no need for equipping Omni Air Dash. Save your CPs for Omni Ground Dash.

[Grade-Zero]

Well, I already have Omni Ground Dash+, I already know that's not replaceable. I was wondering considering I saw Omni Air+ being used decently, although it may only be situational.

[Crono]

For me it depends on who or what character my opponent is using. FAD both on the air and ground if I'm feeling confident of rushing my opponent down. But for me, overall OAD+ both air and ground is best for Firion. As you need accuracy when traversing the map especially on rough stages because you always need to have your feet planted otg you need OAD's to place you where you want to be and not FAD w/c will take you to your opponent.

[Kayarine]

Personally, I always use OAD+ because I think Firion doesn't have the air game to be restricted to only dashing towards the opponent... I use Swordslash mainly as a GTFO move or for covering my midair dodges, anyway. OAD is useful for what Crono said - keeping yourself where you want to be in certain stages. It also helps with avoiding some attacks without the need to dodge, which in some cases allows me to punish with a Straightarrow.

[Grade-Zero]

I think I understand. What would be some characters that would be better off fought with FAD? I don't want to end up ceiling camped by Exdeath because I can't reach him without Straightarrow or tons of dodge spam.

[Kayarine]

Hm, I can't tell since I haven't played any of those campy characters yet.


On another note, here's a basic assist combo video I made. It's probably missing stuff, but oh well. It's not like I'm good at finding out stuff anyway.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1LnJEGqM7o

[killatopak]

^
This is great especially the Emperor combo. I'll probably using him as an assist now since Thunder Crest is cool and great damage-wise

[Yorunightcast]

oohh Emperor assist is making me happy now!
Blue Flare/mines for kuja's pressure, Red flare for laguna's protection, preset crest for prishe's detonation(I spam it) or Mine for other attacks, Then firion's combos :D!

[Grade-Zero]

My my, I was wondering about using Tidus as an assist, I'm glad to know that he is. These videos make me think about using Reel Axe now for those nice combos. I like Lance Combo, but apparently it isn't much faster than Rope Knife and the range isn't that great, even though the damage is pretty good from my observations. I'm starting to wonder if Rope Knife, Swordslash and Reel Axe is the way to go.

[Kayarine]

Well, I tried messing around with Lance Combo a few times... I can't think of any good uses for it. It's slower than Rope Knife and has less range... I tried using it for dodge punishing upclose, but the opponent was able to cover their dodge with a quick attack and clash with Lance Combo. Not to mention it's fairly easy to block.

Edit: Oh yeah, Reel Axe isn't really a necessity for combos, I just like using it for the damage. You could replace it with Rope Knife for those combos.

[Grade-Zero]

Hm, I may try Reel Axe then...I didn't really care for it because there was always Straightarrow for a projectile, but the combo potential is nice. The only thing Lance Combo might have over either is damage potential since I think it does more damage than the other two attacks.

As a sidenote, Firion feels weird now. I can't get the exact right controls I want for him with Lance Combo being crap and Lord of Arms having anti-air capabilities.

[fal'Cie]

I might be missing out on something here but I feel that Firion is still not quite there yet against the campy characters, a few days ago, I went on ad hoc against my friend who uses a Kuja. Fire seems way harder to reflect off Ultima spams now and as a result, dragged the battle on for what seem like eon, resulting in me losing.

Again, like I said, I am relatively inexperienced against human players so if I am wrong, then feel free to criticize.

[MAXumYM]

He got some serious buffing! And Lord of Arms is pretty fun attack too.

[ujhbn]

Finally got the Prologus CPU Firion to actually agree with me for once and tested Blood Weapon's properties in comparison to the previous game. In DFF, Blood Weapon would drain 2x the damage dealt in HP if you scored an HP attack using Double Trouble (any branch) or the Melee Shield Bash (with the daggers). Unfortunately, this didn't transfer in DDFF.

I have just finished Firion's data collection. Double Trouble's double drain is gone, but not Melee Shield Bash. I could still get 2x damage healing from Melee Shield Bash.

[Kayarine]

'k, I found out that Sephiroth can work with Firion too. At least he isn't as stage dependant as the other assists I tried.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEwOBtdejZ4

[Crono]

Awesome video Kayarine. I posted some combo at your other thread, hope it helps.

[Kayarine]

I found out something nice to avoid getting assist punished during Shield Bash.

Some people told me that if I equip Auto Assist Lockon, that wouldn't happen. Today I wanted to try it out but I forgot to equip it. So I tried locking on manually and it worked all the same. I'll still get hit for some BRV damage, but the block of ice will stay in the field and home into the assist, locking it.

[Yorunightcast]

Well I was messing around with Firion just a moment ago, and I've noticed you can dodge mid-way out of the Bow followup, essentially making it a swordslash-a swordslash without the chase. Would this still be possible to combo out of successfully? I've done it on the CPU, but well, its the CPU. If this worked, wouldn't it be a more practical solution to areas with no walls like Orphan's Cradle? If the damage is less, than I think this would only be useful if you are at an angle you can't Floor rush on, so at least it is nice to know.
Either way, on the Sephiroth work, thanks Kaya!

Edit: I just noticed Sephiroth has been "holding" the opponent when I do attacks like soul eater with Cecil. I might check if this works with melee shield bash or double trouble. Will update in a little!
Edit2: Double Trouble works like a charm, but I'm having problems getting Gabranth to attack x.x
Edit3: You can also activate Sephiroth early, and he will do more damage, at the cost of the hp hit.
Edit4: Melee shield bash works.

[Kayarine]

I remember trying to combo off of the bow followup once... Some (if not all the ones I tried) assists can't do that, I think. The bow followup's swordslash knocks the opponent farther away.

By the way, move the assist discussion to the assist thread please. :3

[Yorunightcast]

Huh... odd, mabey the opponent is moving too fast. On the CPU Sephiroth was working, but I can't tell if it was that Gabranth just didn't recover. And I've got Sephiroth holding opponents from flying away on Shield Bash and Double Trouble... but now that I think about it, holding the opponent on DT is rather pointless as the wall rush damage will usually do more. Doing it on melee shield bash is mean though. You can pretty much get to hp attacks for one block with it.

Wait... were you using the assists on the bow followup like you would with a normal swordslash? When I did that he was to far back, but when I waited a little and used my assist, it hit. Could bow followup just be swordslash that knocks father, but has longer hitstun?
If you want to know the timing I'm using, I am waiting until I can dodge back and then using my assist right before I touch the ground again.

[Kayarine]

I redirected the assist discussion to here (http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?8395-Firion-Assist-amp-EX-Revenge-Combo-Thread-Assist-Discussion&p=252737&viewfull=1#post252737). Please continue it there, thanks.

[Grade-Zero]

Is it just me or does Firion completely destroy the Emperor now? It seems kind of unfair now.

[Kayarine]

Yeah, I played Kraid's Emperor the other day and he thinks so too. Straightarrow > Starfall, and Firion has the range so he doesn't need to worry about stuff like Thunder Crest too much.

[gray_kaiser]

I'm preparing a Firion CMV, can you give me some advice about good video editor besides WMM? I have XP, and that sucks :(

[Yorunightcast]

I use Vegas... WMM should be fine if you work around restrictions.

[ThatGuyWithAPSP]

SE should have kept guard break with Rope Knife... but I'm just being picky >.>

[Zero_Ruzai]

That's almost kind of broken if they did that. I would take the aerial advantage w/ no guard break over ground rope knife w/ guard break. It's almost too fast anyway to guard legitimately anyway, plus, if you're opponent dodges around it, you can still combo into the lance part to guard break PLUS absorb. So I like rope knife as is.
My only complaint is still the lack of aerial BRV game. I always resort to thunder, which is crap when the opponent is close to you in midair.

[Yorunightcast]

I agree on RK being DDFF style not DFF, but SS,Fire,Thunder are fine for air.
Thunder for wall'd areas and spammers/dodge spammers
Fire for pressure and SB
SS for close range.

I just wish that Lance Combo had a hitbox like the start of LoA, but still fast. That would make me happy. Like even remove the horizontal range and absorb for great Vertical range, and pull down.

[Kayarine]

That's almost kind of broken if they did that. I would take the aerial advantage w/ no guard break over ground rope knife w/ guard break. It's almost too fast anyway to guard legitimately anyway, plus, if you're opponent dodges around it, you can still combo into the lance part to guard break PLUS absorb. So I like rope knife as is.

What? Not even the horribly obvious "THERE!" sound cue makes it easy to block? Because I always get it blocked whenever I try to randomly pull it out even upclose or if the opponent is dashing at me. And I don't think it's just the lag I usually get with people, yesterday I played someone in Asia, they used Firion once and I had no problems blocking Rope Knife at mid range. And if I supposedly try to use it at close range, they could just dodge (assuming they don't block for whatever reason) and punish me anyway before the daggers go back to Firion (which is before he can cancel into the spear followup)

All in all, the loss of unblockable and tracking Rope Knife nerfed his offensive game. Rope Knife is mainly a punisher now. Combining that with his other offensively-crap moves, he can't do much outside of trying to pressure with magic and waiting for the opponent to do something he can try to punish. This is something I really dislike, since if I have to rely on magic to try to bait stuff, I'll have to spam Swordslash once the opponent has assist. I think Firion could use an unblockable Rope Knife, even if it didn't have DFF tracking.

Is his air game crap? For being offensive, yeah. For pressuring and punishing? Not really. Thunder is amazing at punishing many things that has the opponent stand around the same place. But of course, you don't use it when the opponent is dashing at you or when they're too close, that's just asking to get hit.

Fire, we all know the classic "get Fire reflected, Shield Bash it", so most people will just avoid it. But then again, Fire has worse tracking this time around, so it's not hard to just walk past them and have them crash into the ground (this irks me...) However, it can still get reflected off of attacks, so it's not all that bad and it can still score some random hits if the opponent is careless and uses a long startup/duration attack near a Fire.

Blizzard is a nice mid-range punisher, it's fairly fast and all. It can riccochet off walls, but so far I haven't found any good uses for this (the riccochet, not Blizzard as a whole). Again, don't use this when the opponent is too close or they'll just dash through it and punish.

And then there's Swordslash for getting people to GTFO if they get too close to Firion in the air and for covering his aerial dodges. It's just the range that is craptastic, but it suffices for a mostly defensive move.

[Zero_Ruzai]

You can't react in a fast game to that quickly. By the time he yells there, the rope is already out. I know, I've played online games as many times as Firion as against Firions. Even in lag it's hard to tell when to guard.
From what you're saying, I think you're using Firion wrong. Or maybe not wrong, just not effectively. I don't have a problem with any of the things you've mentioned. He's a perfectly fine offensive ground player and counterattacker.
His air game is crap. Period. You should never resort to it until you have full assist guage and opponent isn't attacking or is a long ways away. The fires here and there, and thunders to wall rush are nice.

I know you're a very experienced Firion player, but I'm not sure how much you've played as him in Duodecim, because his meta-game has changed a ton. He's still defensive, but he can act offensively if needed to.

[Kayarine]

Oh, I guess I don't play Firion nowhere near enough if I use him like, 70% of the time when I play online, which is almost everyday.
Please enlighten me on how you can be offensive with him, I'm really stumped on that despite my many efforts in trying to use his attacks offensively. Every time I try to use him offensively, I just get blocked or punished. Whenever I used Rope Knife on Nero (whom I play with a lot) outside of punishing, he'd block me. Everytime. I even went as far as getting it blocked on purpose when there was a Fire close to him, which only worked a couple of times. Usually the Fire would just go around him or, guess what, crash into the ground.

But I guess it has to do with lag.

His air game is not that bad if you use it correctly. In fact, sometimes I find myself spamming Thunder before I realize it. But of course, staying in the ground is still preferable, his air game is more like some support for his ground game.

[Neo Bahamut]

SE should have kept guard break with Rope Knife... but I'm just being picky >.>

I think it would have been fine if he kept the tracking OR the guard break.

I never got hit by Rope Knife unless I guarded it. It's easy.

[Grade-Zero]

Rope Knife is somewhat better in some ways, but worse in others. I didn't like Rope Knife in the first Dissidia at all because they could just jump to avoid it and the range was pretty mediocre, even though it did have great tracking. A couple characters can't punish Rope Knife when it's used at max distance and blocked, which is pretty nice. I'm not exactly sure of what to think of it though for now. It's not hard to block though.

[Yorunightcast]

Well, I'll just comment on all of the previous posts. Mainly Kayarine's and Zero's.
Rope knife has never been a great offensive move, and was rather situational. It was Firion's best, scratch that- ONLY anti-ground attack, that could be safely used. It destroyed ground fighters. Even though Firion was,is, and will likely be always a countering chartacter, Rope knife was his only form of anti-ground~it made others fear him. It may be easy to dodge/block, but what I see that happened is SE made us play a pure ground punishing(countering) character. The only buff it gained was to punish near aerial attacks.
Look:
DFF Rope knife: ------------------------------------ DDFF Rope knife
Only Ground ------------------------------------ Lower Air and ground
Unblockable ------------------------------------ Easy block
Easy Avoid ------------------------------------ Semi-easy avoid
Faster punishing attack ------------------------------------ Fast punishing attack
Good Tracking ------------------------------------ Poor Tracking

Essentially they made it a close ranged, blockable, less dangerous Reel Axe. Exactly what we DIDN'T NEED.
Haters now have free right to hate SE.
Also get over it, Firion's air game is fine - but I wouldn't mind seeing the implementation of the FF2 maces/canes for an odd aerial lance combo(similar to Vaan?). Mabey with Knife/Axe/Shield followups instead seeing as the only form of shield attack they gave up was shield bash which doesn't even look like a shield D :

[Zero_Ruzai]

I guess I should find some Rope Knife vids to show it still has game. There were a couple I've seen online that knew how to use. Of course you don't just randomly use it. It's still a counterattacking move, but it's also used offensively. Swap it out between Reel Axe, lord of arms, and itself, and your close range arsenal's pretty good.

Re reading your post, lag seems like it has a lot to do with it. Whenever I lag on AHP, I don't use him, which may explain why I've never had problems with rope knife. At full speed, it's fast enough to pretty much be unpredictable if used when the battle's intense (ish). May explain why i'm hardly ever guarded.

[Longfellow]

Hello.
You can say I am new to Firion, but from the story mode I can tell he is a lot easier to play with than in DFF. I do have one question (sorry if it was answered). The guide in this section doesn't really give much importance to the magic arts except for fire. Yet, it is the magic part that really got me through his story mode (going lvl1). I found the chaining magic thing pretty damn useful. Granted, this is the CPU and I really just started Firion.

So what I want to know is this: Does Firion really benefit from the magic and are there any builds of him that make it as useful as possible while not sacrificing the ground game way too much?

[Kayarine]

I didn't expand much on the Magic Arts section simply because there's nothing much to say about them... They will just get dashed through or blocked if you try to use it outside of punishment against other players. Although I guess they will bring the opponent closer, so you can reach them with mid range attacks (where I personally think Firion performs the best) or pressure them if they don't try to approach you (ie: they'll need to keep dodging/blocking/walking away instead of being able to attack unless they have fast attacks), but that only works if they're within range of at least Thunder.

Does he benefit from his spells? Yes. But they're mostly to support his ground game.

I haven't experimented much with builds, if you mean equipment and accessories.

[Yorunightcast]

Anybody have a particular attack build? I've found my self needing blizzard more, so I'm confused. Right now I've got Fire,Bolt,SS. I tried Blizzard,Bolt,SS but now that I can punish faster attacks(those that Bolt can't), I'm having more problems pulling out a quick fire. So what is everyone else doing, Fire or Blizzard for the starter?

[Kayarine]

I used to use SS + Fire + Blizzard (yes, call me crazy)... It wasn't that good at punishing people from afar. Then after some observation, I noticed that normally when I casted Fire, I'd do it at enough distance to cast 2-3. So I'm currently using SS + Blizzard + Thunder. It is true that getting a quick Fire is harder, but I'm not that worried about it anyway since my Fires love to troll me by crashing into the floor when I need them the most. XD

[Yorunightcast]

I know that feeling!xD I wish they didn't add a tracking nerf to almost all old magic attacks! I'll keep doing Blizzard,SS,Thunder since I've been staying on the ground unless the opponent is a mile away x.x, annoying campers/runners!

[BreakDamageLimit]

I have a general question, not sure if this has been asked before but what are the 8 weapons that Firion use?

[BRKNglassIncarnate]

I have a general question, not sure if this has been asked before but what are the 8 weapons that Firion use?

1. Sword
2. Lance
3. Dagger
4. Bow and Arrow
5. Axe
6. Staff
7. Fists
8. Shield (Minwu reference)

[Khell]

1. Sword Firion's initial weapon
2. Lance Ricard's initial weapon
3. Dagger Leila's initial weapon
4. Bow and Arrow Maria's initial weapon
5. Axe Guy's initial weapon
6. Staff Minwu's initial weapon (mace)
7. Fists Josef's weapon of choice
8. Shield (Minwu reference)

I find it odd that Minwu's reference would be through the Shield, since he came with a Mace and every character could be equipped with a shield at any time XD (I forget if he came with a shield initially)

[BreakDamageLimit]

That's what I'm missing, the Fists ><

I'm not familiar with the his story so I'm not sure about those names.

[Khell]

Ah, the names of the characters listed are all party members at one point or another. Firion, Maria and Guy are the 3 permanent party members, while the others take the carousel 4th slot throughout the story. Each one had a weapon specialty that Firion uses in DFF/DDFF(except for the final character, Leon, who isn't listed because he doesn't correspond to any of the weapon types specifically).

[Pokefan385]

Umm I hear he's supposed to be on the ground that's bad right :(

[LonelyGaruga]

I have a general question, not sure if this has been asked before but what are the 8 weapons that Firion use?

Just look at him. Like, seriously. They're all detailed on his model. >.>'

[BreakDamageLimit]

I know. If you have read my previous post, I said that what I'm missing was the Fists. Which means I already know the other 7 weapons. The model doesn't really show that he's wearing a gauntlet of some sort.

[LonelyGaruga]

Firion's dialogue occasionally implies he considers his fists weapons, like with his Jecht vs. Firion fight in DFF (A fist for a fist!). In addition, the neutral followup is a punch. Fists are, on occasion, considered weapons, and fighting barehanded is possible in FFII...I dunno, it just seems like common sense, no offense intended.

[Neo Bahamut]

It's because fists are considered a weapon category in FF2.

Shield is what I don't get. That wasn't considered a weapon. It was considered a shield.

[Kayarine]

But shields also had levels of mastery, so it makes sense to be a master of wielding shields I guess...

[Neo Bahamut]

I couldn't remember if they did or not. Yeah, I guess that makes sense. Especially with Shield Bash.

[Vason Silversword]

Well with the "8 weapons" ho does have two daggers, but I have to agree that SE decided to consider shields as a "weapon" type. It makes sense, but if you ask me it's... odd.

Also yes shields definitely had a mastery level, along with swords, axes, spears/lances, bows, daggers/knives, staves, and barehanded/fist/whatever you want to call it.

Citation: FF wiki + My memory of the game

[LonelyGaruga]

A "weapon" is, imo, anything that can be used in fighting. Shields are used to protect yourself in combat, and can be used as a bludgeoning tool. All of Firion's weapons are conventional weapons, although fists are relatively unconventional. That's how I see it. Now can we get off this topic and on to something useful now? Maybe about whether to use Earthbreaker or Wild Rose (or something else), whether Succubus' Soul is useful for Firion, if Side by Side is worth the loss of Blood Weapon, EX Revenge, and EX Burst, etc. The topic on Firion's weapons has lasted long enough, let's talk about gameplay some more already.

[Neo Bahamut]

if Side by Side is worth the loss of Blood Weapon, EX Revenge, and EX Burst, etc.

Well, is it?

Really, I never thought Firion had the greatest EX Burst ability to begin with, unless you're low on HP.

[LonelyGaruga]

I wouldn't have asked if I knew it already XD
I think the benefits are too different for a straight answer, and I'd leave it to personal preference as to whether or not to use Side by Side. I wouldn't give up the healing benefits of Firion's Blood Weapons, but that's just me. I want others with more experience on this topic to discuss it.

[Kayarine]

Someone called me? :3

Personally I always used an assist build with Side By Side. It worked pretty well, since anytime I landed a Double Trouble, it'd most likely mean a damaging assist combo ending with yet another Double Trouble (which also worked wonders with assist depletion). The same could happen if I landed a long range Shield Bash counter, but in that case I wouldn't call assist unless I was about to break the opponent.

But anyway, what about EX? From my experience, it's fairly difficult to even get EX in the first place with Firion. He dashes rather slowly, so he'll get outrunned to the EX Core more often than I'd like. I tried using an EX Core build with him, but I couldn't even get the Cores to make use of it (and yes, I was using Fake Mustache + Rabbit's Foot). And of course, focusing on EX Force brings an undesirable nerf to assist gain. Chase is too much of a gamble to collect EX Force safely.

So at the end of the day, going for an assist build seems much easier. However, since Firion can safely enter chase during an assist combo off ground Swordslash, I wanted to try an EX Core build (without nerfing EX Force) again to see if that could help him get EX. But guess what, PSN is down so I can't test it until it's back up.


As for whether the Succubus' Soul set is useful or not, I believe it can be useful for all characters that have good HP links. Firion is one of them, and some assist combos even allow him to land two HP hits in a combo, not to mention the fact Double Trouble can wallrush most of the time. So yes, I think it can be useful, especially if you use Side By Side and have no access to Blood Weapons.

[Greek]

I play Firion sometimes, hes not my main but i noticed something with his Fire magic. It leads to very good mind games and you can zone with them too.

locally and even the cpu likes to block them at times. I noticed when they block u can punish them with an HP attack or use Axe throw to guard crush them and lead into a combo.

You can even punish their dodge too if you time it right.

I also noticed fire magic gets deflected alot becuase of its weak priority, you take advantage by it and use sheild bash. pretty much baiting ur opp to deflect it so you can activate shield bash seams to work very very well. I think takeing advantage of these tatics can really open up some mind games for Firion.

(The fire magic is still active on chase, i think it happens on pure luck idk if you can get it to constintly work)

what do you guys think?

[Neo Bahamut]

Already known, actually.

[Vason Silversword]

Already known, actually.

Yah, but as I have learned it is always good to notice things, like how on the combo thread I mentioned that Followup A (first hit) has very similar properties to Swordslash (Ground), and I think it can be used to combo with many similar characters maybe even more than Swordslash.

But that was already noticed, the lesson here is that if you learn something on your own you like it better and want to know how to make it better or how to find a better method of doing the same thing.

[Neo Bahamut]

Right, but someone had to break the news. It is a useful strategy, but since it's so widely-known, you won't be getting the jump on many people. They'll probably reflect it into walls or floors. Although the ability to chain 3 Fires has made it easier to distract people.

[Pitbuller26]

Hmm, I ran into this question while playing someone on Ad-Hoc. How important is distance for Firion?
I believe Firion needs space due to how easy his attacks are to get past on reaction and has to make the opponent approach him. A player said that all I did was run. I believe I was spacing.

So is creating space a cowardly tactic or a necessity for Firion not to get blocked then...you know the rest?

[LonelyGaruga]

Hmm, I ran into this question while playing someone on Ad-Hoc. How important is distance for Firion?
I believe Firion needs space due to how easy his attacks are to get past on reaction and has to make the opponent approach him. A player said that all I did was run. I believe I was spacing.

So is creating space a cowardly tactic or a necessity for Firion not to get blocked then...you know the rest?

First of all, spacing is never a cowardly tactic, it's a strategy. :3
Second, spacing is very important for Firion in order to punish the enemy. Kayarine will give you more details, probably.

[Neo Bahamut]

Spacing is necessary, but I don't know why that person was complaining. Get up in Firion's face & he has Shield Bash, Sword Slash, & Lord of Arms. Quite nasty. I'd rather have Firion run from me than force me to run.

[Kayarine]

It's not really cowardly. Things like whiffing some Swordslashes or casting some spells require Firion to be at some distance or else he'll get punished. You shouldn't be getting blocked that much if you focus on a defensive playstyle though. Using Rope Knife as a poke or using Swordslash when they're in range of getting hit way too often, causing it to become predictable, are bad ideas, for example. But once they close in, you should probably try punishing what they do (which often times involve reading the other player in order to react correctly.) If they are the ones who are too afraid to attack, then they have no right to complain about cowardice. =p

[Disastertastrophe]

Spacing is in no way cowardly, and if they can't hit you then it's their fault. Firion isn't really a fast character at all, I'm sure it would be easy for most characters to close the gap. "Cowardly" is just complaining, in my opinion.

[Neurotic]

Too right. Plus, closing space would mean dashing toward the opponent, at which point you can only use Swordslash or a HP attack (all of which could easily be dodged). If Firion were meant to be in the opponent's face, they'd have given him a half-decent aerial game and wouldn't have given him Reel Axe/Rope Knife.

[Vason Silversword]

Hey, noticed something that SE changed that isn't in any of the changelists I saw here, Straight Arrow got a tracking buff.

If I recall correctly in DFF if you just tapped square to shoot Straight Arrow and the opponent was directly below you it would not fire directly below you, requiring it to be charged a bit to shoot straight down/up, however in 012 that can be done with just a tap (that can be seen on the video Kotei posted on page 3 at 1:13, and for reference I'll put the quote right here:


Here is a nice video I just found, showing off all Firion's changes in Duodecim:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMnE9Q77m80

Very nice.

That's just what I noticed, and felt I should mention that for change-list completeness feel free to correct me if I am wrong, as I have not played DFF in a while.

[shomai19]

Wow, I think i'll give firion a try. ^^

[Kayarine]

Added that Straightarrow has faster tracking on startup to the changelist on the guide. Thanks Vason, I totally had forgotten about it. XD

[Kyokusen]

The new combo changes on the ground were amazing. Now they made Firion have less trouble fighting aerial opponents so long as he's on the ground. The magic changes were good. Lord of Arms of amazing.

I don't know if anyone else feels this way but Sword Slash without the Chase option seems a bit of a let down. I only have it equipped for the air in case someone gets to close following Double Trouble or if I get knocked in the air.

[LonelyGaruga]

Swordslash on the ground does allow for chase. Both are really useful, though. Ground Swordslash helps build assist and gives Firion a good option to build EX with, and air Swordslash allows for assist combos off of wall rushes, provides a melee attack in the air, also helps build assist, and can cover Firion's air dodges somewhat.

[Kyokusen]

Ah. I haven't used Ground Swordslash because having all three of his Weapon -> Double Trouble helps out on the ground. I don't use Lance Combo much but the improved Absorb effect has paid off at times.

I keep the air variant to ground airborne targets.

[Vason Silversword]

Also Air Swordslash has a little perk of smacking the opponent TWARDS the ground, thus making the opponent be more likely to stay on the ground or close enough for Firion to strike.

Also since I am posting here, YW Kaya.

[Kyokusen]

The best is when you're extremely close to the ground and use Air Swordslash and right after the cool down you get them with a Rope Knife or Lance Combo. If you get a break from the Wall Rush of Swordslash it's even better.

[LonelyGaruga]

The best is when you're extremely close to the ground and use Air Swordslash and right after the cool down you get them with a Rope Knife or Lance Combo.

Doesn't work on humans.

[Kyokusen]

Unfortunate. I haven't been able to get Ad-Hoc Party on the PS3 yet to try against human yet.

[LonelyGaruga]

Ah. WR combos don't work because there's enough invincibility frames after a wall rush for your opponent to dodge away before you can land an attack. Air Swordslash is an excellent starter for assist combos though.

[Kyokusen]

Thanks for the latter advice.

[kewldude475]

Isn't Reel Axe>Double Trouble more useful than SA since it deals brave damage as well?

If I had to pick one...I'd go with Straightarrow. It has its flaws, but against most people it works well. Such as getting assist punished after firing, and being easy to dash around. You can even just run to the side if you have enough range, which works well with fast characters. Reel Axe can get assist punished too if the punish is done quickly, or else the Axe will hit Kuja, or Kuja will get hit by the lance followup.

---------- Post added at 07:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:12 PM ----------


A "weapon" is, imo, anything that can be used in fighting. Shields are used to protect yourself in combat, and can be used as a bludgeoning tool. All of Firion's weapons are conventional weapons, although fists are relatively unconventional. That's how I see it. Now can we get off this topic and on to something useful now? Maybe about whether to use Earthbreaker or Wild Rose (or something else), whether Succubus' Soul is useful for Firion, if Side by Side is worth the loss of Blood Weapon, EX Revenge, and EX Burst, etc. The topic on Firion's weapons has lasted long enough, let's talk about gameplay some more already.

I know this is kinda old, but I usually use SbS with a heavy assist build for Firion as he can get off HP attacks without too much of a problem, and with SbS, he gets another one off. Though the loss of Blood Weapon is pretty sad T.T

[Kayarine]

About the Swordslash discussion: It's pretty useless against the CPU, yeah. You can get by without even using it.

But when you play against other people... Swordslash is pretty much needed, in my opinion. Especially the ground one. If you don't equip Swordslash, you'll have a hard time stopping the assist gauge from decreasing over time without getting punished, among missing out on other uses I list in the guide I wrote (a lot of them were already mentioned by Garuga, though.)

[Kyokusen]

After looking at your guide I see what you are talking about. Especially due to it's unreal speed.

I am wondering what would be the move to replace Swordslash with. Lance Combo seems the one to switch.

[LonelyGaruga]

If I had to pick one...I'd go with Straightarrow. It has its flaws, but against most people it works well. Such as getting assist punished after firing, and being easy to dash around. You can even just run to the side if you have enough range, which works well with fast characters. Reel Axe can get assist punished too if the punish is done quickly, or else the Axe will hit Kuja, or Kuja will get hit by the lance followup.[COLOR="Silver"]

ITT: Kuja is the only assist in the game.


I know this is kinda old, but I usually use SbS with a heavy assist build for Firion as he can get off HP attacks without too much of a problem, and with SbS, he gets another one off. Though the loss of Blood Weapon is pretty sad T.T

EX builds have proven to be generally more useful than SbS builds for Firion. Blood Weapon healing for 3000+ is too good.

...the hell are you replying to something so old for anyway?

[Khell]

After looking at your guide I see what you are talking about. Especially due to it's unreal speed.

I am wondering what would be the move to replace Swordslash with. Lance Combo seems the one to switch.

I personally use Rope Knife and Reel Axe at all times, as I find them more useful as a whole compared to Lance Combo. Kaya on the other hand (if I recall) uses Rope Knife and switches Reel Axe and Lance Combo as needed for certain matchups.

[Kayarine]

Personally, I think that the choice between Reel Axe and Lance Combo depends on a few things:

The assist you use: If you use a wall rushing assist, Reel Axe helps a whole lot with comboing, so I consider it pretty important.

The matchup: You won't see many uses for Reel Axe in certain matchups like Squall or Prishe, because they don't really have anything that Reel Axe can go through and punish, and they can effortlessly punish it if it whiffs (Prishe, not so much if you use it when far away.)

I recommend that you keep Rope Knife whenever possible... Its mid range and speed are very useful for defensive purposes.

[Kyokusen]

In every match I've done the same as you. Lance Combo just kinda sits there...
I'll have to grind the Mastery of that move asap to add it into my builds.

[kewldude475]

I see, so EX is better than SbS builds for Firion. I would try out the EX build, but I've tried it with other characters an it dusnt seem to fill up the guage quick enough since my multipliers suck. Maybe I'll try it out on your recommendation, and I'll try to make a better EX build.

EDIT: Yeah I believe Kaya is correct. I usually see Firion's with Jecht assist, so if you have Jecht, or an asist that wallrushes, Reel Axe is a good option. However I use Kuja forFirion, and it has seemed to render Reel Axe nearly useless besides forcing dodges/block punishing.

[LonelyGaruga]

I see, so EX is better than SbS builds for Firion. I would try out the EX build, but I've tried it with other characters an it dusnt seem to fill up the guage quick enough since my multipliers suck. Maybe I'll try it out on your recommendation, and I'll try to make a better EX build.

...Multipliers? You're relying on Booster accessories for your EX build? Fail.

Read this thread (http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?10065-Knowing-Your-Weapons-Firion-Build-Guide-amp-Discussion) for good builds.

[SpryStrikerTidus]

Even though he's a bit slow, I tend to have fun with Firion whenever I play him. I was thinking about subbing him myself. He is easily adaptable to many situations. (Unfortunately I have not seen his MU's yet.) I think he can handle most of the cast on the ground, but in midair..... No. You should just go through the motions with him, and if it feels natural, then by all means, go for it.

[SpryStrikerTidus]

Rope Knife can't punish.

[Kayarine]

Rope Knife can't punish.
what .

[SpryStrikerTidus]

I blame Lolshack. He said it didn't and i tried just now against my friend and I couldnt punish him.

[ChaosMuramasa]

Rope Knife can't punish.

Gotta admit, this statement made me giggle.

Rope Knife can punish quite a few things, my friend.

[Kayarine]

...Rope Knife is THE punisher among Firion's ground moves. It's fairly fast and has good range, and it's even better at punishing in DDFF because of the vertical tracking. Of course, it has a 23F startup, so it can't punish everything, and it certainly can't punish opponents directly above you.

If you need a faster punisher, Swordslash and Lance Combo work if you're in range, or depending on what you're trying to punish, Lord of Arms if they're directly above you (or if their attack last long enough for LoA's priority to kick in and stagger them.)

[SpryStrikerTidus]

I did it for the lulz :P (also, I don't play Firion often, and whenever i do, I hardly use Rope Knife.

[LonelyGaruga]

Rope Knife can't punish.

Lolwut. That's one of the best punishing moves in the game.


I blame Lolshack. He said it didn't and i tried just now against my friend and I couldnt punish him.

I think Lolly was trolling you :3


I did it for the lulz :P (also, I don't play Firion often, and whenever i do, I hardly use Rope Knife.

Swordslash and Rope Knife are Firion's most important BRV attacks. Learning to use them properly is vital to being a good Firion player.

[SpryStrikerTidus]

To correct myself: I'M bad at punishing with Rope Knife. : o and i never knocked Swordslash! I love that move; especially in midair.

[SpryStrikerTidus]

Is Swordslash on the ground worth it? I've never really had much need for it, but I see where it can be useful.

[Durandal7]

One thing I want to know about using Firion: Is it best to use all of the Magic attacks for air combos or exchange one for the Sword/Lance/whatever combo?

[kewldude475]

If you need a faster punisher, Swordslash and Lance Combo work if you're in range, or depending on what you're trying to punish, Lord of Arms if they're directly above you (or if their attack last long enough for LoA's priority to kick in and stagger them.)

But what about characters who can punish from above? I have been punished by Bardiche, Garland's Thundaga, Oblivion, and Shield Strike while trying to hit Halo Campers with LoA. I guess just don't try to hit Halo Campers if they have "Useful from above" attacks. But maybe Kayarine can confirm that or correct me on that.

[Zero_Ruzai]

One thing I want to know about using Firion: Is it best to use all of the Magic attacks for air combos or exchange one for the Sword/Lance/whatever combo?

I swapped out Blizzard for Swordslash. Thunder is probably the most important magic attack, since it leads to wallrushes on the floor. Fire is second since it forces your opponent to be careful not to deflect them since it leads to an automatic shield bash hit. Although conveniently, if you have only one magic move, you can still use all three in midair, since they're combo. Example: if you have thunder, fire, and sword slash as your aerial BRV set, you can start off doing Thunder, but if you press up-O (or some command like that) it will lead to Blizzard, and if you do up-O again, it'll cast blizzard again. So you can do a thunder-blizzard-blizzard combo without even equipping blizzard. Or to save CP, you can equip thunder and swordslash only and do a thunder-fire-fire combo, or hell, a thunder-fire-blizzard combo.
Long story short, I suggest getting rid of Blizzard as it's the least used, and if you do want to use it, just do thunder>blizzard.

[LonelyGaruga]

One thing I want to know about using Firion: Is it best to use all of the Magic attacks for air combos or exchange one for the Sword/Lance/whatever combo?

Swordslash is a very important air move for Firion. It's not only his fastest and safest move in the air, it can provide a wall rush and even cover your dodges somewhat. Get rid of whichever spell you find least useful. Fire provides pressure and a potential Shield Bash target. Blizzard is the fastest of Firion's spells (same frames as Fire, but moves faster) and is the best choice he has for assist locking after an assist change, if possible. If your opponent uses chase without attacking, Blizzard can be combined with Recovery Attack to provide a free hit (Swordslash lacks the range for this). Thunder can punish dodges, lengthy moves, and provide wall rush for assist combos. Personally, I got rid of Blizzard, while I believe Kaya uses Swordslash, Blizzard, and Fire, and swaps Blizzard for Fire depending on the matchup, for the pressure it provides. Seems like Fire and Thunder are the most useful moves.


But what about characters who can punish from above? I have been punished by Bardiche, Garland's Thundaga, Oblivion, and Shield Strike while trying to hit Halo Campers with LoA. I guess just don't try to hit Halo Campers if they have "Useful from above" attacks. But maybe Kayarine can confirm that or correct me on that.

I thought it was common sense not to use something that will get you punished :3
Try a different tactic instead. It would be foolish to use the same strategy for every character. Try to think of other uses LoA has, such as dodge punishing, interrupting attacks, and stuff like that. Don't just use it randomly.

[Neo Bahamut]

I used to use Straight Arrow a lot, but with Lord of Arms added, & the other changes to the game, I find I almost never use it.

[Kayarine]

A small mod note:
Phew, finished moving posts around and organizing them. If you find that posts or parts of your posts are missing, it's because they either got left on the "I'm considering Firion. (http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?9285-I-m-considering-Firion./page2)" thread or they got deleted.



One thing I want to know about using Firion: Is it best to use all of the Magic attacks for air combos or exchange one for the Sword/Lance/whatever combo?
Swordslash is really a must, in my opinion, for reasons already stated by others and what I wrote in my Firion guide.

Thunder is also a must in most cases, at least against characters that have moves that are punishable by it.

As for whether you should use Fire or Blizzard... I do believe it's matchup dependant. My standard setup is Swordslash / Blizzard / Thunder, because Blizzard is a pretty nice mid-range aerial punisher and it helps with locking assists (and to use it for that, I need to throw it out as soon as I have the chance.)

I normally don't equip Fire directly because I can just throw out a Blizzard/Thunder and then cast Fire through their followups, because Fire isn't all that needed since it crashes into the stage pretty easily unless the opponent stays in midair a lot. And if I just stay away to cast it as a followup, it's not much of a problem.

However, I find that there are some matchups where I need Fire's pressure and the opponent has the tools from punishing me from long range or they can block and counter Blizzard/Thunder, so I have to get it on the field as soon as I have the chance (against Gilgamesh because of Eletrocute, for example.)



But what about characters who can punish from above? I have been punished by Bardiche, Garland's Thundaga, Oblivion, and Shield Strike while trying to hit Halo Campers with LoA. I guess just don't try to hit Halo Campers if they have "Useful from above" attacks. But maybe Kayarine can confirm that or correct me on that.

That's why I said "depending on what you're trying to punish." By no means LoA is the end-all, be-all of countering halo camping. It does help with a couple of things like whiffed attacks with long cooldowns or duration, such as CoD's tentacles for example. Not all characters have such attacks, so Firion can still suffer from halo camping, unfortunately.

Against characters that can punish a whiffed LoA easily, you should be more careful when using it. Unless you enjoy eating Bardiche/Shield Strike/Beat Fang/[insert other BRV attacks here], of course.

[Neo Bahamut]

What the Hell is Halo Camping?

I think the message to take away fom this conversation is that you want Sword Slash, because all you need is 1 spell & you technically have all of them equipped.

[ChaosMuramasa]

What the Hell is Halo Camping?

Literally just as it sounds. Your enemy camps, spams, or tries to bait you from right over your head. Sometimes just a bit above your head, sometimes from the top of the stage.

[Yorunightcast]

What the Hell is Halo Camping?

I think the message to take away fom this conversation is that you want Sword Slash, because all you need is 1 spell & you technically have all of them equipped.
Halo camping is basically when people stay above you and spam until you get hit. Mainly for characters without an anti-air attack.
edit: ninja'd XD
No its more or less that fire is getting praised for being pretty poor; people are trying to show that swordslash and thunder are pretty much a must and that blizzard will serve better. Adding on to the reasons, you'll just get punished using fire up close. If your at the range that you can use fire (likely after knockback) you might as well be able to Blizzard -> Fire -> Fire instead, and keep blizzard for a quick attack. Also 3 fires is completely pointless and unnecessary because one or two gets its job done almost as well (and its easier to get two out and land again than three and land)

[LonelyGaruga]

No its more or less that fire is getting praised for being pretty poor; people are trying to show that swordslash and thunder are pretty much a must and that blizzard will serve better. Adding on to the reasons, you'll just get punished using fire up close. If your at the range that you can use fire (likely after knockback) you might as well be able to Blizzard -> Fire -> Fire instead, and keep blizzard for a quick attack. Also 3 fires is completely pointless and unnecessary because one or two gets its job done almost as well (and its easier to get two out and land again than three and land)

Hey, Fire is not poor. It's very important to provide pressure, something Blizzard is pretty much useless for. The reason to run more than one spell is so that you can get them out faster, which is very important as this increases the number of options available to you. Having Fire equipped lets you get out 1-3 Fires that much faster, especially if you want to use them for spacing as well. Without Fire equipped, you would have to use an additional spell every time you want to get a Fire out, while with it equipped, it is significantly easier to use Fire.

[Neo Bahamut]

I was going to add a line that said something about 2 spells being better, but apparently, I did not.

Actually, if I had to define "the most useless," it would be Blizzard. It seems its prime use is Assist Lock. That said, I'll probably leave it equipped over fire, because the advantage Fire has is that it doesn't have to be released with split-second timing to still be useful.

[Yorunightcast]

Hey, Fire is not poor. It's very important to provide pressure, something Blizzard is pretty much useless for. The reason to run more than one spell is so that you can get them out faster, which is very important as this increases the number of options available to you. Having Fire equipped lets you get out 1-3 Fires that much faster, especially if you want to use them for spacing as well. Without Fire equipped, you would have to use an additional spell every time you want to get a Fire out, while with it equipped, it is significantly easier to use Fire.
I know fire isn't poor, hence the "pretty."
The reason I dislike it is because it is easily punished. Recovery attack makes this much more useful, but whenever just normally playing, I find it difficult to pull out (even with it on as an attack.)
Fire is purely equipped over blizzard against mages (Ranged in particular) for me. Otherwise a melee character will simply dash and punish. What I mean by "just as easy to get out as with blizzard as it is to with it equiped" is that, you can use recovery attack -> blizzard -> fire. That is, in place of RA -> fire -> fire.
Probably my own opinion that you only need one or two, but I view fire as a form of kuja's ring holy. It is more useful because firion can block it though...

[LonelyGaruga]

The reason I dislike it is because it is easily punished. Recovery attack makes this much more useful, but whenever just normally playing, I find it difficult to pull out (even with it on as an attack.)
Fire is purely equipped over blizzard against mages (Ranged in particular) for me. Otherwise a melee character will simply dash and punish.

I don't see how any of Firon's spells are different in those aspects. Only Blizzard should be used at close range, and even then just to punish with Recovery Attack (in which case, yeah, it's pretty safe). You shouldn't be using Fire when you can be punished. You should be using it at a distance that your opponent is incapable of punishing from, or when it's safe to use otherwise.


What I mean by "just as easy to get out as with blizzard as it is to with it equiped" is that, you can use recovery attack -> blizzard -> fire. That is, in place of RA -> fire -> fire.
Probably my own opinion that you only need one or two, but I view fire as a form of kuja's ring holy. It is more useful because firion can block it though...

Fire is waaaaaaay better for pressure than Holy Ring, since it lasts longer, has better tracking, and moves faster, in addition to being easy Shield Bash bait like you mentioned.

Still, Kaya summed it up quite nicely (no surprise there).


As for whether you should use Fire or Blizzard... I do believe it's matchup dependant. My standard setup is Swordslash / Blizzard / Thunder, because Blizzard is a pretty nice mid-range aerial punisher and it helps with locking assists (and to use it for that, I need to throw it out as soon as I have the chance.)

I normally don't equip Fire directly because I can just throw out a Blizzard/Thunder and then cast Fire through their followups, because Fire isn't all that needed since it crashes into the stage pretty easily unless the opponent stays in midair a lot. And if I just stay away to cast it as a followup, it's not much of a problem.

However, I find that there are some matchups where I need Fire's pressure and the opponent has the tools from punishing me from long range or they can block and counter Blizzard/Thunder, so I have to get it on the field as soon as I have the chance (against Gilgamesh because of Eletrocute, for example.)

I personally find the pressure Fire provides universally more important than Blizzard's uses. I don't use Fire often, but when I do, I usually find it quite useful...unless it hits my assist -.-

[Kayarine]

This shows that none of the two are an absolute must. =p But I like having more options, so I'm somewhere in-between.

Just to expand upon my previous post:

Using Blizzard correctly, when the opponent can't punish you for casting it because they're too far away or they're in a cooldown and can't or need to dodge cancel, can make it a decent mid-range punisher since Swordslash has such a short range and Thunder is really slow. If they dodge cancel, chaining it into Thunder can make it so that it punishes their dodge (although I haven't managed to pull this off everytime, so I think it's spacing and/or timing dependant.) And if you have assist, that forced dodge can be punished even more easily.


Fire most likely won't see many uses against opponents that like to stick close to you, and by extension close to the ground, because it crashes into the ground easily... Unless they like to dash around, in which case I was told that Fire wouldn't do that. Besides, melee characters can reflect Fire and still manage to interrupt Shield Bash by throwing out a melee attack while Firion is blocking.

But it's really good for interrupting, should the opponent choose to camp in midair. And if they're too busy throwing out melee or higher priority attacks, Fire might get reflected and you know the rest. (Just watch out for attempts to reflect the obvious incoming Shield Bash.)


There's also the fact that Blizzard needs to be cast as soon as possible in order to be effective, while Fire can take its time (except in the cases I mentioned in the previous post.) Though the issue with casting Fire through followups if the opponent is dashing at you is that Blizzard can and most likely will get reflected back at you, while Thunder is really slow and they might catch up by the time you finish casting it, making following up into Fire risky.


tl;dr: It's all about preference, how you prefer to play and how your opponents play.

[gray_kaiser]

Eeeh, now that we're talking about Firion's Air game, how much is the Blizzard's bounce ratio ? I mean, does it only bounce once ?

[LonelyGaruga]

Blizzard will bounce for the entire duration of the projectile. At least, I tried it in Pandaemonium and got it to bounce 4 times, so I doubt there's a limit (it barely lasts long enough to achieve that in the first place).

[Neo Bahamut]

Is there really a point to the bouncing, though?

[Yorunightcast]

Kaya pretty much summed up what I would say. As for Ring Holy, tracking is about the same; Ring Holy comes out faster than 3 fires, and Ring Holy actually lasts longer than fire... Not that you'll ever see that because both of their tracking sucks now.
The difference is that Firion can make much more use of Fire that Kuja, like we agree'd.

Blizzard isn't an attack IMO, its a punisher with some minor pressure options (really limited to low air blizzard->SB... and some unlikely things.) All preference. Oh and if I didn't say, I use fire a lot... it is hard to get one out without it equiped.

[Neo Bahamut]

I don't quite understand the "Tornado through Shield Bash" thing.

As a melee high priority attack, Tornado can reflect ranged high priority attacks. As such, if Terra has enough distance to start up a Tornado in response to Shield Bash, then she can deflect the SB projectiles, which will home in on Firion.

Tornado is melee? Weird.

Hrm...how does the game determine which "version" of Shield Bash you use--IE the knives or the magic?

[Balguna]

Tornado is melee? Weird.

Hrm...how does the game determine which "version" of Shield Bash you use--IE the knives or the magic?

The distance.

If the opponent is close (i.e. you block a melee attack), knives come out.

Anything furthur than that gets the magic.

[LonelyGaruga]

how does the game determine which "version" of Shield Bash you use--IE the knives or the magic?

Distance between yourself and your opponent. If they're in range for the melee counter, the game will usually use it instead, but if they aren't, and sometimes even when they are, depending on the angle of the attack (for example, WoL's Shield Strike will trigger the ranged SB counter) it'll be the ranged version. This isn't 100% foolproof indication, but it's very close to it. As a general rule: Melee = melee counter, ranged = ranged counter.

EDIT: And Balguna beats me to it XD

[Neo Bahamut]

One last question: Would it be hypothetically possible to Ground Dash close enough to trigger the Melee Shield Bash instead?

[Madoka Titus]

^If you are talking about blocking the ground dash with SB, then I would think so, yes.

[Neo Bahamut]

No, I'm asking about using Ground Dash to get close enough to use Melee Shield Bash. In other words:

Terra-----------------------Firion

T(Holy)--------------------<--(Ground Dash)F

T---Holy--F(Shield Bash)

Thus knifing her in the face.

[Kayarine]

To be honest, I haven't seen any player ever use a long range projectile at ground level and within dashing distance, especially against Firion. That's just asking to eat a Shield Bash and they most likely won't be far enough to be able to reflect it. Most people cast stuff from above or far enough for Firion to not just dash in.

But to answer the question, yes it's possible to do that. But if they don't get staggered by Shield Bash, chances are they'll be able to dodge cancel their cooldown and actually punish Firion while he whiffs his counter.

[Neo Bahamut]

The conversation this was originally in relation to was Terra deliberately baiting a Shield Bash to reflect the magic back at him with Tornado. I was wondering if you could use this tactic to counter.

[Kayarine]

Doesn't matter, what I said applies to her as well. I was only speaking generally because it isn't something Terra-specific. She falls into the "cast projectiles above Firion" category, thus it's very unlikely that it'll trigger the melee counter because she'll be in the air. Not to mention that what I said about melee SB counter being punishable also applies here, I'm confident that she could easily dodge a melee counter if she didn't trigger it with Blizzara Combo.

[LonelyGaruga]

I was wondering if you could use this tactic to counter.

No. It's too impractical, and relies on Firion Shield Bashing Holy (Combo) in the first place. Shield Bash is extremely biased toward the ranged counter as well. Using an attack from a distance won't give enough time to get in range for the close range counter to trigger.

[Neo Bahamut]

I suppose I'll have to stick with blocking.

It WAS a cool idea, you have to give me that.

[Durandal7]

Either way, Shield Bash is a good way to score at least a simple HP Attack in; though Fire and Blizzard can moderately miss, I always find the Lightning striking anyone. I don't think there's once where an opponent has dodged it or Shield Bash has failed. But I expect SB to fail when HP attacks happen though; it doesn't surprise me to see how Terra's Tornado can punish an SB user.

[Neo Bahamut]

I don't know about online, but in Inward Chaos, some of the AIs would effortlessly dodge every hit of Shield Bash while, I am forced to assume, insulting my parentage.

I'm not quite sure you're exactly getting the sequence of events, here. It's not using Shield Bash on Tornado, it's Terra baiting a Shield Bash, then using Tornado to deflect the magic projectiles Shield Bash fires off back at Firion.

[LonelyGaruga]

I don't know about online, but in Inward Chaos, some of the AIs would effortlessly dodge every hit of Shield Bash while, I am forced to assume, insulting my parentage.

This is possible with Precision Dodge. Since it's extremely expensive at 45 CP it's generally not worth it for competitive play, but it might see some use.

[Neo Bahamut]

Inward Chaos.

As in Ye Olde Dissidiae.

As in no Precision Dodge.

[Madoka Titus]

The HP-hitting part of SB seems to often miss Terra and Ultimecia from the first game. They drop low after the ice hit and thunder misses them completely so long as they're not high or directly above (or below) Firion.

[LonelyGaruga]

Inward Chaos.

As in Ye Olde Dissidiae.

As in no Precision Dodge.

Oh, right. Well, that can be justified by the AI having stupidly incredible reflexes or that it simply wouldn't have connected in the first place. It'll miss on stages like the Rift if there's too much distance, for example. Maybe SB had less tracking in that game, I don't remember.

[Neo Bahamut]

I don't know.

I don't recall having ever successfully pulled it off, but I believe it could be done.

[Durandal7]

I don't know about online, but in Inward Chaos, some of the AIs would effortlessly dodge every hit of Shield Bash while, I am forced to assume, insulting my parentage.

I'm not quite sure you're exactly getting the sequence of events, here. It's not using Shield Bash on Tornado, it's Terra baiting a Shield Bash, then using Tornado to deflect the magic projectiles Shield Bash fires off back at Firion.
I meant more generally than just Terra, but thanks for pointing out that specific outcome of using SB versus someone like Terra. And I get what you mean by the sequences. I was just focusing on the general idea of Terra using Tornado against Firion using Shield Bash.

[BROfelt]

Let's ADD something to this. Is Firion dead and gone already? Come on!

[Kayarine]

Add something like...? There's not much left to discuss, that's why there's not much activity.

[BROfelt]

Well I guess you're right, but I really need help dodging LoA. I get screwed every time another Firion uses it on ME. The saddest part is that I main him :(

[ChaosMuramasa]

Well I guess you're right, but I really need help dodging LoA. I get screwed every time another Firion uses it on ME. The saddest part is that I main him :(

Don't flinch. It's a dodge punisher, which means if you're having trouble dodging it, you're dodging by reaction, which usually gets you killed. You need to pace yourself.

[BROfelt]

So, dodge over? Left? Right? Backwards? Twice? Details...

[Kayarine]

If you stay above him, within range of the first wave but far away enough to get out of the range with a dodge, you should be fine. Depending on the character you're using, you can also dodge the first wave and punish him between the first and second waves (WoL can do this with Shield Strike, for example.)

You can also dodge both waves if LoA isn't timed correctly (ie: you see the dodge punishment coming.

[BROfelt]

Okay, i also want to know how to dodge both at any time when used on the ground, when I'm on the ground as well. I tend to rush opponents and that's what gets me... I just can't avoid it... Ever...

[Kayarine]

If your character has average walking speed or faster, just walk away from the first wave and hit him between them. If not or if you're stuck doing an attack, don't forward dodge or else you'll get nailed by the second wave most of the time.

[LonelyGaruga]

So, dodge over? Left? Right? Backwards? Twice? Details...

Details of your own would be appreciated. Are you above Firion? On the ground? Attacking? Doing nothing and still getting hit because the timing to dodge eludes you? Without details, precise answers are difficult to provide.

[BROfelt]

Umm I'd say I'm dodging to the side on either elevation, both ways I get screwed. I also try to dodge to the side when grounded, then try to dodge over, which is where either I die or the Firion calls out another, where I get screwed immediately after

[LonelyGaruga]

Hrmph...that does not provide the information necessary to completely discern the scenario. Oh well.

If you're grounded, dodge the first part early, then dodge the second part. Side dodges are easiest to work with. In the air, try just dodging over it. It's the easiest solution. If you aren`t high enough to avoid it that way, you could have interrupted it.

Alternatively, you can avoid the first wave by dashing or walking, then dodge the second just fine.

[BROfelt]

Eh, it suits me fine. If I still have problems, ill post a collective vid of my LoA fails. Critique me on that if I'm still sucking omni weapon attacks...

[BROfelt]

Hey, I got it! I learned how to punish it too! Thanks

[Natsu]

I finally realised that firion is one of my good character from the last dissidia. Now my best 5 is completed, the only reason i have been avoiding firion was because i found it a little boring, but now i will just play to my strengths. Man firion was the reason i managed to get nearly 100% in dissidia first game, i mean i farmed time attack like mad XD.