Bartz discussion

[fal'Cie]

So it seems like out of all the old characters returning, Bartz is the one that got the most changes, good or bad? Only you can decide. I haven't extensively tested him out yet but discuss anyways.

[TheRebelMage]

I reserve judgement till the fame comes out in the us.

BUT! as my main i will have to test him out. And Vaan. and then unlock gilgamesh as soon as possible

Anybody think that cecils new paladin attack will work out greatly for combos. I could just see a

holy-Light Thruster- If they dodge the light thruster they get hit with holy-flare-wall rush-assist-wind shear

[UltimaMM]

I'm disappointed with Bartz. He has 4 ground brave attacks and 3 air brave attacks. Exactly as much as the first game. The really annoying part is that he only gets half a move from 6 characters and gets two moves from Cecil.

[Dakotaiscool]

Facepalm.

Bartz when will you learn you potentially have the coolest class in the game... and you just waste it...




WASTE IT!!!!!!!!

[PKNintendo]

I'm disappointed with Bartz. He has 4 ground brave attacks and 3 air brave attacks. Exactly as much as the first game. The really annoying part is that he only gets half a move from 6 characters and gets two moves from Cecil.

Wait wtf? Doesn't he still have the 4 ground BP moves (Reel axe, Solid Barrel, Climbarell, Ascension lance) + a new brave move from Vaan (making it 5)

Edit: No it turns out they removed Ascension lance. -_-

[Kite]

Bartz has an air game now. I feel this should be changed due to him having a fear of heights 8-)

[Kayarine]

Guys, here's what I gathered from Bartz's changes. Please help me fix / fill this up since I'm not that experient with Bartz, so I might have missed some things.

BARTZ'S DDFF MOVELIST
Ground BRV Moves

ソリッドライズ = Solid Ascension (Squall's Solid Barrel + WoL's Ascenscion)
ハザードラッシュ = Hazzard Rush (Cloud's Climhazzard + Tifa's Beat Rush)
リードインパルス = Reel Impulse (Firion's Reel Axe + Zidane's Storm Impulse)
スマッシュカタナ = Smash Katana (Lightning's Smash Upper + Vaan's Katana)


Midair BRV Moves

スライドシュッター = Slide Shooter (Tidus's Slide Shot + Kain's Celeste Shooter)
ホーリー = Holy (Terra's)
ラッシュインパクト = Rush Impact (Kain's Thrurst Rush + Lightning's Impact Break)


Ground HP Moves

ダークフレイム = Dark Flame (Cecil's)
地獄の火炎 = Hellfire (Yuna's)


Midair HP Moves

ライトスラスター = Light Thruster (Cecil's)
ラグナロクブレイド = Ragnarok Blade (Laguna's)
フレア = Flare (Onion Knight's) [Holy's HP branch]



BARTZ'S DFF -> DDFF CHANGES AND ADDITIONS
= Solid Ascension seem unchanged
= Climbarrel got changed into Hazzard Rush, but it's still virtually the same - It sends the opponent flying away in the same fashion and initiates chase
= Goblin Punch seems to have the same startup. Couldn't confirm if the range is still the same.
= The Holy glitch (Holy > DC > Holy > Flare) still works
+ Holy's cooldown can be cancelled into another Holy. Holy glitch works when doing this.
+ Holy's speed was increased.
+ Reel Impulse now tracks the opponent until Bartz throws the axe.
+ Rush Impact replaced Storm Shot. It's fairly fast and wall rushes downward.
+ Hellfire replaced Soul Eater as Bartz's ground HP melee attack. It seems to have about similar startup speed to Soul Eater but it covers more range in a wider radius, it also stays out for longer.
+ Dark Flame replaced Flood as Bartz's mid range HP attack. Seems to be very similar to Cecil's (not sure, I didn't play Cecil yet)
+ Ragnarok Blade replaced Wind Shear as Bartz's midair HP melee attack. Has a bit of starup, but it has good midrange and Bartz tracks the opponent until the blade comes out. Doesn't leave Bartz's very vulnerable if the opponent dodges, unlike Wind Shear.
+ Light Thruster has quite a bit of startup, but it has long range and duration. It homes into the opponent in an arc. It's not good if the opponent is close to Bartz, directly above or below him.
- Holy has less tracking.
- Slide Hazzard is now Slide Shooter, therefore it no longer knocks the opponent down into the floor. It now knocks the opponent up high, still wall rushes if opponent hits ceiling.
- It feels harder to hit the opponent with Slide Shooter if they're not in the exactly same height plane as Bartz.
- Ascension Lance got replaced by Smash Katana. Smash Katana has much less vertical range than Ascension Lance, but it has a bit longer horizontal reach. Seems to have similar startup speed, initiates chase.
- Bartz no longer has Paladin Force, Wind Shear, Soul Eater, Flood, Storm Impulse and Ascension Lance

[!Certified!]

Yep, noticed it. "Slide Shooter" isn't as versatile as it was in the last game. The hit box for the move used to be so odd that he could pick you up if you were just under. Now you gotta go for that extra mile, but it's fine since it still has pretty high priority. I don't think they should have gotten rid of paladin force. I'd rather have that over the ragnarok gun - just sayin'.

I do love how Bartz perfectly mimics the character's voice this time around, rather than just 'sort-of-but-not-really' sounding like them. It's the most obvious when he does Tifa, Yuna and Onion Knight.

[PKNintendo]

- Bartz no longer has Paladin Force, Wind Shear, Soul Eater, Flood, Storm Impulse and Ascension Lance

WHAT?!?!

But it was in the prologus demo, according to other users he's used Paladin force in the prologus demo... Damn why did he lose moves? Sure half of them are trash and i'd never use them, but i'd like to have the option of using them ;_; Also lack of Soul Eater sucks.

http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?7200-Kraid-s-Hex-Findings-number-2-Movesets

Its even in Kraid's hex thread -_-

It was even "buffed" according to this changelist: http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread.php?7198-DFF-gt-DDFF-Prologus-Changelist

[Feonax]

Bartz no longer has Paladin Force, Wind Shear, Soul Eater, Flood, Storm Impulse and Ascension Lance.
no longer has Soul Eater
no Soul Eater

Why.

I felt so fuzzy inside when using it: "Darkness! Drink of anguish!"

[PKNintendo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuTXnY46tXo

Yeah its official they purposely removed some of Bartz moves (for no apparant reason...)
He's the mimick master yet he has a shallow movepool, whats wrong with giving him the most moves in the game argh.
If they were going to remove BP moves, why not take out Reel axe (which was crap, buts its even WORSE without dodge cancelling) I'd rather have Ascension lance over that.
To add insult to injury, they buff a move and then go ahead and remove it. -_-

[Kayarine]

I think that they removed those moves so that he represents all characters evenly (although that's contradicted by two Cecil, Lightning and Kain moves)... I was kinda like "WTF?" when I didn't see his old HPs too. I believe his biggest losses are Ascension Lance and Paladin Force... :| At least Hellfire does a good job at replacing Soul Eater other than the more obvious visual cue.

[Stupid Aquarius]

Did that video show all his new BRV moves though?

EDIT: Also, would like to see more videos with this tights wearing boy in play, and also how assists can help bump up his game. I'm not so much pressed and bitter over the changes because you can still choke your foe with Holy White Ballz- I errrr mean the news moves just seem to have replaced the old ones. Squall got some of the most flagrant changes to his overall Dissidia game, but he's already being adapted to still play like a beast in Duodecim.

We're playing in the context of Duodecim, not Dissidia.

[Kite]

since I never liked paladin force and only used ascension to punish backward dodges I feel no real losses other than the general holy change (more speed less tracking), but to make up for that, assists are there to fuck shit up.

[Kayarine]

Speaking of assists, I was playing around with assists for Bartz just now... I'm guessing assists with BRV attacks that initiate chase are the best for Bartz to aid with landing HP attacks since he doesn't have any HP links outside of Holy -> Flare. I tried Kuja and he works pretty well. I can even do a Reel Impulse (1) > Kuja BRV assist > assist chase > Ragnarok Blade in the remote chance I land it. And it seems his air HP assist (Force Symphony) works incredibly well with Light Thruster.

Any other assist options that work well with him? Maybe there's some benefit from wall rush assists that I overlooked?

On a side note, I think Hazzard Rush still sucks. :V Couldn't find a good use for it.

[Kite]

assists with a strong knockdown are pretty cool also, since his new one is fairly weak

[Aurelia F]

Bartz, I am disappoint. NO SHANTOTTO MOVES?!?! :( :( :(

I'm sad. Really sad. As a [Mimic], he theoretically has the ability to tap into the moves of all Cosmos warriors...Meaning, he SHOULD have a wide variety of BRV attacks at the very least. 5 ground and 5 air would be awesome. :3 I was expecting him to have a better movepool than DFF, but I was wrong. D: Squeenix got lazy on him, I bet. :/ I was really looking forward to a Shantotto move too...It feels wrong to not have an attack based off of her...she IS an official Cosmos warrior now. :rolleyes:

I guess you'll be my least active character in my roster....Exdeath just got more interesting than you. :/

[Kite]

The reason he doesnt have any shantotto moves is because square actually wanted to give him moves that werent absolute crap this time =B

They were successful in the air at least

[Sigue]

Did that video show all his new BRV moves though?

It did not.
I'm not sure if I was able to use Smash Katana in that video, and I didn't have Solid Ascension equipped. Smash Axe has decent range and speed. It's got a little more range than Solid Ascension, but I wouldn't say it's an incredibly good ability.

Solid Ascension and Hazzard Rush seem to be the only moves that haven't been changed significantly. They do the same thing they did in the previous game, even though Hazzard Rush has a slightly different animation (3 Tifa punches vs. 3 Squall gunblade shots).

There's no more DC, so I haven't been able to chain anything off Reel Impulse. The ending combo seems to hit a few more times than previously, but that may be my eyes playing tricks on me.

I mained Bartz in Dissidia, but I think I'll be dropping him in Duodecim. I am not particularly a fan of his changes.

Obviously, you know the story with his HP attacks...it's a bit discouraging, honestly.
It's far too soon to say anything like Bartz is a bad character; he's not, especially considering how good both Hellfire and Ragnarok Cannon are. Dark Flame also has its uses, but I'm not too much a fan of Light Slasher.

My friend uploaded a better video regarding his changes, but she forgot about Smash Katana as well, heh.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30iF4iBNpPQ&fmt=18

[!Certified!]

I rather like the new Bartz. While I liked the old moves a lot, you can definitely manage around that with his new moves which in fact may actually be better version of his previous moves. I do wish he would have kept wind shear though.. That was pretty much the reason he could take on Firion without worrying about shield bash..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRXvuBKD5xw

I love kicking the crap out of Vaan.. so much fun..

[Kite]

Now he can do it by using an assist or knocking Firion up into the motherfucking air. I see no losses there

[Kayarine]

I can attest for using assists to interrupt Shield Bash... That was done to me a few times today. XD

[PKNintendo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98kBSjTJ2_w&feature=feedu

Robo VS Lycoris (mostly joke match)

[Jus4000kicks]

Speaking of assists, I was playing around with assists for Bartz just now... I'm guessing assists with BRV attacks that initiate chase are the best for Bartz to aid with landing HP attacks since he doesn't have any HP links outside of Holy -> Flare. I tried Kuja and he works pretty well. I can even do a Reel Impulse (1) > Kuja BRV assist > assist chase > Ragnarok Blade in the remote chance I land it. And it seems his air HP assist (Force Symphony) works incredibly well with Light Thruster.

Any other assist options that work well with him? Maybe there's some benefit from wall rush assists that I overlooked?

On a side note, I think Hazzard Rush still sucks. :V Couldn't find a good use for it.

personally, i think hazard rush is his best move but thats partially because i have a thing for hand to hand (plus symbolically it means cloud and tifa together - hehe)

---------- Post added at 10:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:38 AM ----------


Bartz, I am disappoint. NO SHANTOTTO MOVES?!?! :( :( :(

I'm sad. Really sad. As a [Mimic], he theoretically has the ability to tap into the moves of all Cosmos warriors...Meaning, he SHOULD have a wide variety of BRV attacks at the very least. 5 ground and 5 air would be awesome. :3 I was expecting him to have a better movepool than DFF, but I was wrong. D: Squeenix got lazy on him, I bet. :/ I was really looking forward to a Shantotto move too...It feels wrong to not have an attack based off of her...she IS an official Cosmos warrior now. :rolleyes:

I guess you'll be my least active character in my roster....Exdeath just got more interesting than you. :/

I already put this in the other thread but I agree with you. I know I was excited for Bartz as I thought they would have him keep his old moves and then have him with the new ones too giving him alot more customization. My opinion is Bartz should have the most brave attacks out of everyone allowing people to truly make their own bartz instead of every Bartz playing the same. He should have at least one brave attack per warrior of cosmos. At the very least they should have kept his old ones with the new ones - I could've put up with that at least. He has the best and easiest potential for new attacks. The only thing I can think of for why they did it like that is running out of space and if that was true they should've focused more on the characters and less on the story (there is more issues I have with this game than just that but this was a major dissapointment). On the other hand they did the new characters very well but didn't do enough with the older characters.

ok so i c better what they were trying to do with him and hes not worthless yet but has great potential if they gave him around 4-5 move parts per cosmos character. personally i only wanted his physical attacks since i don't care an awful lot for magic. Giving him tis much brave moves would allow different people to have completely different styles with bartz. like making him a ground character mostly or air character mostly or a squall/cloud mix or a WoL/Firion mix, etc.

[MT1012]

Has eveyrone gotten used to Bartz, cause after 30 hours it still feels weird to me

[No78]

I love new Bartz, and I'm very used to him.

Anyone know of any new Bartz combo videos?

[Kite]

An easy way to get used to Bartz is to play Squall =P

[Starwave]

Howdy! So I recently managed to get some online matches in with several people from this website (wonderful people I swear) and I've got a few things to say about Bartz myself. Personally I think he was significantly buffed from the previous game and that fact that he lost several moves isn't even a big deal. Here are my observations for each of Bartz moves (keep in mind i'm somewhat of a newbie so may want to take this opinion with a grain of salt) I didn't play the previously Dissidia game competitively, so my knowledge of Bartz old moves are somewhat limited.


Ground:

Solid Ascension: I don't really like this move too much. Its pretty fast, but it has very low range. Its really strong though. I don't think its all bad though as i've seen good players make excellent use of this move in the past. I'll make this move work though!

Blade Crash: I love this move! Its got awesome range, its pretty fast and it does good damage. Unfortunately it replaces Ascension lance and that move was pretty good from what I saw.

Reel Axe: This move is surprisingly good! Its a solid punisher because of its incredible range and its pretty fast too. It deals good damage, it can wallrush (assist combos galore) and its a solid move overall. It received a tracking boost, and i'm pretty sure it got range boost too! Its very assist bait, so using this move when your opponent has an assist bar charged is a no go.

Hazzard Rush: Terrible, terrible, terrible. A friend of mine put it the best "Its a guard crushing move... without the guard crushing" Seriously, its got terrible startup, its easy to block and even if you do land it its not that special. Bartz should never replace any of his moves with this one. It got a minor tracking boost but its still not worth equipping. I think everyone can agree with me on that.


Air:

Rush Impact: Rush Impact is easily one of the best aerials in the game (Bartz really lucked out here ^_^) Its got good range, its fast and it wall rushes! Its a really good poke, and you can spam it from afar to build up meter. It replaces Storm Shot and to be honest, I wasn't a that big of fan of that move.

Slide Shooter: I'm sure many of us freaked out when they changed one of Bartz' best moves. I sure did! But never fear, the move is still solid, and arguably even better now! To start, this move has incredible range, and its one of the best aerial dodge punishers in the game. Its harder to hit someone with the move (as others have pointed out, the hitbox is smaller) but its really not that big of a deal. It no longer slams the foe into the ground, instead it shoots them upwards (it can still wall rush) It sounds bad, but it really isn't because you can know pull off some amazing ceiling combo's and Bartz I find is a lot more comfortable in the air, than he is on the ground. A must have, especially useful for dealing with dodge happy opponents.

Holy: Bartz' (in)famous aerial move, Holy is still a must have for Bartz. Using Holy is a lot harder now because Bartz can be punished by an assist. The aerial dash speed boost ability has made it harder for Bartz to snipe his opponents but its still possible. Holy received a slight speed boost and a tracking nerf. Several people have told me to use this move only when the opponent is directly above or below you because its easier to land / harder for them to block. Using it when your opponent is on the same vertical plane as you is a no go because they can easily dash towards you and punish you (especially if you get hit by one of the reflected holy) Its not all bad news for Bartz because the infamous link glitch remains: Holy (hitconfirm)> Holy > Flare, and its still impossible to dodge if pulled off successfully.
Bartz can chain holy into Kuja assist, (a very damaging) so make sure you abuse

Ground HP moves:

Hellfire: Another lucky gem. Hellfire replaces Soul Eater and imo its definitely a winning trade. Hellfire has incredible vertical range, so its good at deterring aerial assaults and its got deceptive horizontal range as well. It can even be semi spammed at close ranges, and its somewhat hard to dodge the move due to its long lasting duration. As with most HP attacks however, it is punishable by assist(and punishable in general) so be careful when using it.

Dark Flame:Another move I don't really like, but its partly because I don't know how to use it. Its really good at punishing dodges due to its strong tracking ability, but the startup for this move is really annoying.Dark Flame has some nice utility for Bartz. Its a solid anti air (similar to Hellfire) and its excellent at punishing whiffed aerials. Whiffed Fullslides from Tidus/Bartz can be punished by Dark Flame. Its a high priority move, meaning it can reflect magic attacks (holy, snatch shot etc) and is especially useful against aerial mages. You can also spam it from afar if you're directly above or below the enemy (kefka's tower, ultimecia's castle) Keep in mind that its assist bait, and opponents can easily punish Bartz once they dodge the flame at close ranges. It replaces Flood, which was one of the worst moves in the original Dissidia game.


Aerial HP moves:

Ragnarok Blade: This move is a really good HP, but it shouldn't be spammed. Its god solid range, and Bartz tracks the opponent before hitting them with the blade making it a solid dodge punisher. It even wallrushes, making it assist friendly. Unfortunately its really easy to punish Bartz after a dodge, so make sure you use this move properly. It replaces Wind Shear, which was pretty bad in the original game. It had some utility by reflecting magic attacks (noticeably flares) but Ragnorok blade can do that too.

Luminous Shard: A slow starting, long range HP move that can track. Its uses are rather limited, but I still like this move. This move is absolutely useless at close range, because its easily dodged and VERY punishable. It replaces Paladin Force, but its not that big of a deal since Ragnorok Blade can perform its old duties (punishing dodges mainly) Very useful against the emperor, especially when he sets up his traps. In the past, Bartz had to use Wind Shear (and risk eating a Thunder Crest) but now he can spam LS to bypass all of that. LS actually has some potent endgame utility. For one, it can easily force dodges due to its solid tracking, making the opponent vulnerable to getting hit by assists. Also, its a single hit HP move, meaning it cannot be assist changed or EXR'd. Its assist bait, so watch out.

BP to HP link moves:

Flare: Bartz' only BP to HP link move, Flare is an absolute must have. The link glitch is still intact, making this BP > HP link very damaging. Flare can be combo'd into an assist for even more damage.

So yeah... that pretty much sums up my opinion of Bartz in this game.
PLEASE Correct me i'm wrong.

I used Kite's guide & Dave's video thread for insight on how Bartz played in the original game, and Kayarine's post on page 1 for insight in Duodecim. Credit goes to Axeeeel and A-ther for some Bartz tips and were awesome practice partners.Thanks guys! Also, credit goes to Hollowed for his Luminous Shard / Dark Flame tips. Thanks a lot :)

[axeeeeL]

note that almost all of bartz' moves can force a dodge/block in most situations, making him an ideal character for assist punishing. moves like luminous shard seem useless as a standalone move, but its amazing tracking will force people to dodge, allowing for an assist punish (assuming it's not a character that can cover their dodges like jecht, sephiroth, etc.).

think outside the box. bartz isn't an easy character to pick up, especially since he has a bunch of bad matchups.

[sleight_asteeg]

is the range of barts' holy is longer than terra's

[Namida_no_Nami]

no, notice how it says: Holy in the name? is the same as Terra's Holy, but this time around Holy orbs act different than Holy Combo orbs ^.^

[Kotei]

Well, Luminous Shard is so slow it's not even funny. The Emperor can set up traps and dodge the attack properly or even Bombard it. It's also completely unsafe if the Emperor has assist (and he's one of the best to build assist gauge). Ragnarok Blade is a lot more challenging.
Holy has become useless against Emperor as well. This matchup seems pretty limited on Bartz's side.

[Djungelkorv]

Bartz got his new DLC Costume today, downloadable from PSN!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK7cMyOjTzU

[Stupid Aquarius]

God he looks like such a fruit. I love it, haha. <3

[Natsu]

Bart feels cool. Although i struggling with his hp game but once i masted holy that should change :) hopefully. I like bart because it feels like i am using lightining , onion knight and squall at the same time. How did i not use him in dissida i have no idea, but i love him. Now i finally found my 5 for scenery and actually comfortable with all 5. Well 4 out of 5 but thats fine. :). Thanks for this bart board opened my eyes. I hope bartz can be secondary one day :). Oh yeah i was trying to a holy , then assit, then holy while assit xD then lum shard finisher xD, didn t work but i will keep trying.

[Dadragon]

Question. Do Bart's offensive abilities' extra effects stack with basic abilities and accessories?

[Vance]

Question. Do Bart's offensive abilities' extra effects stack with basic abilities and accessories?

Yes. They also stack with themselves (if you equip the same move multiple times).

[Dadragon]

So that would make eqipping 3 solid ascensions and the physical shield extra ability give him a very high defense againt physicals when near death then. Wow. Plus having far dodges because of dark flame and ground evasion boost. And it'd be interesting to see how many times he can jump with rush impact and jump times boost ++. Thanks.

[BROfelt]

I'm not exactly sure it works that way with the midair dodge or physical shield... Confirmation please?

[LonelyGaruga]

Those abilities do stack.

[BROfelt]

As in jump boost ++, topped off with the moves that increase it, and you basically jump like Kain?

[LonelyGaruga]

I don't understand how that is related to your previous question.

Everything stacks, unless it doesn't make a difference (Bone Mail + Side by Side, for example, won't make you gain less EX, obviously). Even Extra HP > BRV, as it isn't a direct 1-1 conversation like one may assume it is, but a percentage that stacks.

[BROfelt]

Oh, ok. I got it now. One last thing. With midair evasion boost, the Adamant set, AND the Bartz move that increases it, it does significantly increase your dodge distance right?

[LonelyGaruga]

That depends entirely on your definition of significant and your own expectations, but yes, Bartz is capable of dodging a further distance than any other character, and can dodge further by equipping the move multiple times.

[BROfelt]

Ok, good enough for me. Thanks Garuga!

Edit: I just tried out Bartz with the adamant set, Midair Evasion Boost on, AND 2 Luminous Shards equipped. The dodge effects stack.It's SO much fun. The distance you cross is ridiculous. It also basically makes Bartz impossible to dodge punish!

[MGSPhantom]

Is Luminous Shard even worth it? It is so damn slow and punishable (even by some BRV attacks) is it worth using?