EX Mode vs Assists ~The Discussion

[DevilTrigger]

Thought of making this while making my guide (hoping to have it posted tmrw, just about done), as most of you know, by default Desperado cannot use either without equipping his costly handicap disabling abilities. To you the Desperado mains, I ask this simple question, which do you think is better to be used. Do you stick to one exclusively? Do you mix them up? Do you use one or the other because of who you are facing? Where you are facing them? Express your opinions here, pros, cons, situational counter picking, general utility, w/e you want.

I'll voice a few opinions I have on each later, so someone feel free to kick this off.

[The3p1cN3cr0p4th]

The only time I'd ever use assist over EX is when you're on a massive stage like the Rift or OS. In smaller areas like EoM and Phantom Train, EX is far more valuable.

[holy0crux]

Really? I think Assist is more valuable, even on small stages. =P

ADVANTAGES:
Desperado has trouble landing HP attacks in general; this gives him a chance to land these attacks. Desperado can perform two HP attacks in a row, so he recovers his BRV faster after the second HP attack. It you're playing on a ruleset specified for Desperado's BRV loss, Assist gets him a lot of BRV. Assists are much more common than EX Mode. With Changes, you have a way to save yourself from that horrid final blow. Assist Chase brings him closer to the opponent; especially useful on large stages.

DISADVANTAGES:
EX MODE and EX BURST probably get him more BRV. When playing by standard rules, Assists can become locked. Assists...something. I know there's more, but I can't think of any.

[Khell]

You could add that natural Assist opposing EX nature, so it would keep the opponent out of EX longer/knock them from it. If it's a one or the other thing, you could also say that Assist would benefit from you not having to worry about EX Break or losing EX gauge from opponents' assist attacks.

[Kraid]

Assist V EX

Assist wins, here's why:

1a) Everyone has access to Assist and EX naturally except Desperado.

1b) EX is harder to build in Duodecim than Assist due to the lack of EX Force and that just spamming gives you assist. Desperado Has an incredibly easy time gaining EX but then he has an incredible amount of time losing EX as well since you won't be able to afford abilities such as Ground Evasion Boost, Midair Evasion Boost, Precision Dodge and Recovery Attack. (Unless you cut out some more braves.) This makes him much more susceptible to EX Depletion in any rule set than it does make him effected by Assist Depletion.

2) All of Desperado's attacks either Wallrush (Assist) and/or Chase (EX). However he has a much much MUCH easier time wall rushing someone which means more oppunitity to get more hits in with Assist.

3) Desperado seems more geared for getting Assist since most of his attacks have insanely high priority which can only be beaten by Jecht Block, Omni Guard and Precision Block. He can interrupt most attacks and gain even more meter for hitting with them.

4) Desperado's air game is really bad. If an opponent realizes that Desperado has no Assist, he can stay in the air all day and spam attacks, get assists then punish Desperado for any Dodging and such like. Desperado needs Assist to be able to counter this and land the much needed HP attack that is needed.

5) All the attacks that allow him to Wall Rush all have insane priority. All the attacks that allow him to Chase either don't have that priority (Eruption) or drop Chase three quarters of the time because they already got Wall Rushed ANYWAYS.

6) In Equip rulesets, you're going to have to choose between EX and Assist even more (Infact most likely everyone will but Desperado makes the choice a lot easier.) If an opponent tries EX Builds, Desperado will be able to cause EX Break and force EX-Depletion on them.


EX

1) Desperado can get A LOT of EX-Force. However most of the time his chases drop.

2) Desperado can easily get Ex-Core since again his stupidly high Priority on his attacks + Range allows him to intercept any opponent easily, knock them back, GAIN MORE EX-Force and absorb it all through core.

3) Let's face it, the only reason why anyone would pick EX over Assist REALLY is because of his awesome Ex-Mode and Burst. Ex-Burst looks more awesome than Yul Fracture -> Assist -> Via Dolorosa/Ventus Irae/Fulgor Maximus (Is it bad I've started memorizing these names and their spellings DESPITE Square's silliness on the Latin Grammar?)

[DevilTrigger]

At first, I thought his EX mode was just SO good, and it'd be his key to staying on top. How silly that thought was. I agree essentially with Kraid, however I do believe EX mode can still be useful given a few key circumstances

1) Any stage that is fairly small with a low ceiling, ranging in size between Phantom Train to The Prima Vista, where escaping him becomes A LOT more difficult

2) Certain characters that cant really camp him in the air and are thus easier to get to and attack due to his awesome priority. Note that on any huge stage like Order's Sanctuary or Empyreal Paradox, even the limited air games don't matter because they have so much room to run, you'll never be able to corner them due to the fact that unless you cut some versatility, you will almost never be faster than another character, where all they need is a multi air slide/omni dash to stay away and wait you out.

Basically, assist is 9.5/10 better to use than EX, the settings have to be so situational for that, and they can just CP you away. Even if you were against say Cloud on Phantom Train, you would STILL be better off with assists, which in my opinion will allow Desperado safer set ups and better damage. If Desperado had the EX revenge potential of Garland, I'd honestly go with EX mode, but nothing of his is fast enough to be remotely worth it.

This morning I actually had a lot more defense for EX mode..but..well ya, assist really is at this moment flat out better

[Arphesol]

Is it odd that I think you should just drop the bravery sap prevent ability and take both of the others? He gains enough bravery, so much that you barely notice the decrease; and with assist+EXmode it would be easy enough to gain bravery anyway.

[DevilTrigger]

You'd get camped hard though, everyone would just stall you out until they can insta break you, and then they have the advantage. Maybe on a stage like Phantom Train...

[holy0crux]

You'd get camped hard though, everyone would just stall you out until they can insta break you, and then they have the advantage. Maybe on a stage like Phantom Train...

That's what the Assists are for? If you are playing with EX and Assist but no BRV, then as you're attacking, whip out an Aerith Holy. =D Sure, she probably isn't the best assist for Desperado, but I haven't seen anyone with that unstoppable HP assist. Does Emperor get Starfall? If he does, then use him. This forces the opponent to approach. Aerith isn't the best for combo strings, but she has a lot of potential for pressuring the opponent.

Even though the enemy would camp you out, Desperado could have a good chance. The Assist might help him draw out a combo and the EX Mode is awesome. =P

Of course, this IS Super Theory Fighter IV, so it might not work. =P

[DevilTrigger]

That's what the Assists are for? If you are playing with EX and Assist but no BRV, then as you're attacking, whip out an Aerith Holy. =D Sure, she probably isn't the best assist for Desperado, but I haven't seen anyone with that unstoppable HP assist. Does Emperor get Starfall? If he does, then use him. This forces the opponent to approach. Aerith isn't the best for combo strings, but she has a lot of potential for pressuring the opponent.

Even though the enemy would camp you out, Desperado could have a good chance. The Assist might help him draw out a combo and the EX Mode is awesome. =P

Of course, this IS Super Theory Fighter IV, so it might not work. =P

Emperor sadly only gets flares, so that doesn't work at all for him.

As for Aerith, well my "demo" didnt come with her sadly, I'll need to wat for the english version to test if she can help Desperado a lot. I know she can stop enemies with Seal Evil, but can it be dodged or guarded? Holy could be good on a huge stage, but on the smaller ones where Desperado is more comfortable on, I imagine that one dodge past you, they can then use there likely better mobility (or a projectile) to hit her out of it. Of course, I really need to see Aerith in ation lol

[Arphesol]

Her seal evil cannot be dodged; oh and also if ure playing as desperado, hes so big that u can just sit in front of aerith and guard all the ranged hits.

[Statistic]

I found assist to be pretty bad. Once they notice your an assist build, they begin to get very aerial against you making it difficult for him to connect an HP attack as all of them are only about mid to close range, without any jump times boost it is very difficult to get a hold of them...

[DevilTrigger]

After watching Kraid vs IRC chat II, I can safely say EX Mode is kinda trash when they can just camp the top...of course, it didnt help you were on Empyreal the whole time.....I'm banning that stage every time

[Kraid]

I found assist to be pretty bad. Once they notice your an assist build, they begin to get very aerial against you making it difficult for him to connect an HP attack as all of them are only about mid to close range, without any jump times boost it is very difficult to get a hold of them...

You have... got to be kidding!

You can PUNISH PEOPLE if they camp in the air. ASSISTS CAN PUNISH DODGES. PEOPLE CANNOT RESET JUMPS IN DUODECIM SO TO STAY IN THE AIR THEY HAVE TO SPAM AN ATTACK (ASSIST PUNISHABLE) OR DODGE WHICH IS... ASSIST PUNISHABLE.

YOU CAN THEN USE THIS FOR KNOCKING THEM DOWN (Via Dolorosa) OR ASSIST CHASE (Your pick: Fulgor Maximus or Ventus Irae.)

If they notice you're an Ex-build, THEY'LL DO THIS ANYWAYS BECAUSE THEY KNOW YOU CANNOT PUNISH THEM.

[RionNagase]

Uhm, I'm new to this and Desperado Chaos is my Main on Dissidia Duodecim. So I'd like to state an opinion, even with the Bravery decrease handicap, you won't need to equip the Null Bravery Decrease ability. You can keep both Assist and EX Mode because of Desperado Chaos' attacks have priority correct? Why not, keep both Assist and EX Mode and give Desperado Chaos moves that have the most priority in battle. In my case, I use Onslaught because of its priority over breaking guards, Eruption for Range, Strong Arm again for the priority to break guards, and Fierce Break again Range. All HP Attacks have their uses, so they can't really be judged. Each HP Attack has a certain priority and type of way to be used, and depending on your decision/choice of Attack whether it be for Assist or for mind games, it all comes down to style and skill. Don't forget a factor can be changed by a single thing like Equipment and Accessories, even Summons play a role in that. So why bother exchanging one for the other or even equipping Null Bravery Decrease ability. I'll have to agree with Arphesol on their point of view.

[The3p1cN3cr0p4th]

Well there was a discussion on the main page where we're considering getting rid of dodges in favor of having both EX and Assists unlocked.

Whether it'll actually pan out is something to be seen but if it works then this discussion is mostly null unless the extra CP goes towards dash abilities.

[Kraid]

Uhm, I'm new to this and Desperado Chaos is my Main on Dissidia Duodecim. So I'd like to state an opinion, even with the Bravery decrease handicap, you won't need to equip the Null Bravery Decrease ability. You can keep both Assist and EX Mode because of Desperado Chaos' attacks have priority correct? Why not, keep both Assist and EX Mode and give Desperado Chaos moves that have the most priority in battle. In my case, I use Onslaught because of its priority over breaking guards, Eruption for Range, Strong Arm again for the priority to break guards, and Fierce Break again Range. All HP Attacks have their uses, so they can't really be judged. Each HP Attack has a certain priority and type of way to be used, and depending on your decision/choice of Attack whether it be for Assist or for mind games, it all comes down to style and skill. Don't forget a factor can be changed by a single thing like Equipment and Accessories, even Summons play a role in that. So why bother exchanging one for the other or even equipping Null Bravery Decrease ability. I'll have to agree with Arphesol on their point of view.

You agree because you've not actually read the thread.

Firstly: If you do not equip the Brave Drop Nullify ability, the enemy will camp you out until you basically have 0 brave. Which point then they will attack you without fear of too much damage.

Secondly: Desperado Chaos' HP attacks 'all have advantages', but there are some obviously better than others. But because Desperado's HPs are EXTREMELY weak in the air, there's no point equipping Lux Magnus due to the fact it only ever hits Vertically meaning you only need Ventus Irae or Fulgor Maximus.

Thirdly: Yes, you DO need to choose between Assist and EX, ESPECIALLY in Equipment battles of all things. I've already gone over it so I'll explain it again so hopefully this time everyone reads it:

In equipment and accessories, anything that boosts Assist/EX will have the inverse effect on the other. If you choose, for example, to boost EX, then you will gain less Assist in battle and vice versa. If you go for an Assist build, you will never gain the force needed to ever go EX.

With me so far? Ok good. So now let's take an equipment battle where say you decide not to equip Null Bravery Decrease and you equip both Assist and EX. You will never be as strong EVER since a smart player will just be like

"Oh, right, you're Desperado Chaos, you have extremely high priority on all your attacks and your vertical game sucks. I will stay RIGHT UP AT THE TOP OF THE ARENA and RUN AWAY until you have NO Brave left so I can then go in and fight you when you have like 100 brave and I have like 10,000 HP. Good luck landing 100 HP attacks as I chip you away with Assists and you can't ever gain the EX-Force needed for your abilities."

Or what about this

"Hi, I'm Desperado Chaos. I have both EX-Mode and Assist. Yea it's equipments and I chose to favour an Ex-Build. ... WHY CAN'T I EVER GAIN ASSIST? D="

I would advise that people like Arphesol and RionNagase read the entire thread and learn the mechanics of the game before interjecting an opinion that has ALREADY BEEN MENTIONED. This isn't so much for PvAI, this is for PvP.

[Arphesol]

(Not trying to start an argument) I play Dissidia with my friends all the time and none of them camp in the air when my bravery constantly decreases(Ex. Playing as Exdeath on the rift and constantly falling into Brv. traps) even when I'm playing as a char. who has absolutely no good air game whatsoever. Oh and I don't use ground dodge or ground block, so basically I could just equip all 3. Also I heard D. gains EX. really fast anyway, so why would you have to worry about not gaining enough assist and EX? And I'm sure if I try hard enough I can win with 100 Brv. attacks or I could always use omega.

[Kraid]

(Not trying to start an argument) I play Dissidia with my friends all the time and none of them camp in the air when my bravery constantly decreases(Ex. Playing as Exdeath on the rift and constantly falling into Brv. traps) even when I'm playing as a char. who has absolutely no good air game whatsoever. Oh and I don't use ground dodge or ground block, so basically I could just equip all 3. Also I heard D. gains EX. really fast anyway, so why would you have to worry about not gaining enough assist and EX? And I'm sure if I try hard enough I can win with 100 Brv. attacks or I could always use omega.

So essentially your friends don't play at a high PvP level. Fair enough, please don't comment again until you have a little more experience.

Just to note: D Chaos' Air game is decent, his AERIAL HP game is bad.

And Arphesol... again please read my posts and the posts in general on this forum. He can gain EX fast, yes, BUT he is also REALLY easy Assist hitting meaning he's going to lose a majority of that EX. I do not need to repeat this for a seventh time.

[DevilTrigger]

Kraid, I hope you don't mind, but perhaps a video you're in could explain it best to our dear lad here


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Gatssdfxk0

On a side note, so many Via Dolorosa's lol. Sucks you had to be on Empyreal the whole time, that stage is such garbage for Desperado I swear.

[Kraid]

I did a lot of Via Dolorosa because:

Against Prishe, there were so many lag spikes it was unfunny
Against Firion, I was just lagging (Europe to Japan!) It wasn't funny

[DevilTrigger]

Lol, I figured it had something to do with lag lol. Via is a good move, but the amount you were using it made me lol xD (it was those two battles you mentioned as well, so everything makes sense)

Anyway Arphesol, I hope that video showed better why assist is superior to EX and why you need the null bravery drain (I mean had Kraid not had it on, he would of been broken so easily with them camping the top of the stage like that)

[RionNagase]

I guess it just means it's entirely up to the player then. I did like seeing the battle video though. Kraid plays very well as a Desperado Chaos!

[Arphesol]

Little more experience? I've gotten every character to Lv. 100 with most abilities mastered except CoD. I can beat a CPU at Lv. 100 with a Lv. 1 and take no damage; I really don't care if you say my friends are bad at the game because they are. But I am most definitely not bad at the game.

[Kraid]

Little more experience? I've gotten every character to Lv. 100 with most abilities mastered except CoD. I can beat a CPU at Lv. 100 with a Lv. 1 and take no damage; I really don't care if you say my friends are bad at the game because they are. But I am most definitely not bad at the game.

Most people here can beat level 100 computer with a level one with no damage but it's obvious you don't understand the basic concept off PvP or Equipment -_-

[Arphesol]

Basic concept of equipment?!?! Honestly all you have to do is equip random Lv. 100 equipment and you are basically unbeatable -_-. The basic concept of PvP is to use your enemies disadvantages to help you win (And not acting like an idiot might help too) but unfortunately I fight against people who use characters who have NO disadvantages (Onion Knight, Cloud, Jecht).

[Thiefcopy]

Basic concept of equipment?!?! Honestly all you have to do is equip random Lv. 100 equipment and you are basically unbeatable -_-. The basic concept of PvP is to use your enemies disadvantages to help you win (And not acting like an idiot might help too) but unfortunately I fight against people who use characters who have NO disadvantages (Onion Knight, Cloud, Jecht).

.......No disadvantages? Especially Cloud, why the hell is he in that grouping? He's one of the most disadvantaged characters in the game, got a nice buff in DDFF at least.

[DevilTrigger]

I'm gonna say this the nicest way possible Arph. Please, quit talking, you're the kind of person who probably thought Kuja and Terra were terrbile characters and Clouds Omni slash v.5 was the greatest move in the game, just like you probably can't see any weaknesses in Desperado because no one could possibly camp him and his moves beat everything, and his Air HP game will 100% catch people so you can EX Burst them *sarcasm*.

Not trying to be a jerk, just saying.

[ShiHikari]

Eh, I think Trigger's right.

[Arphesol]

Sure I'll stop talking but I just want you to know that my favorite character is Squall and my best character is Terra and also I hate anyone that comes from FFVII but I'm not going to say they suck just because they are from that FF. Also I've never used omniwhatever is it like a chain like Holy combo? I also know that his air HP game is not terribly awesome but his air brv. attacks look very good; and like I said I'll just equip all 3 handicap remove abilities. Also NEVER say I like cloud again (He's my least favorite Char. other than Tifa) and the only character I think sucks is CoD and I have good reasons.

---------- Post added at 11:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 PM ----------

But anyway I'm done talking. (But if cloud does have a chain move I don't know about I would like to know which move it comes from (To complete my ability collection))

[DevilTrigger]

Sure I'll stop talking but I just want you to know that my favorite character is Squall and my best character is Terra and also I hate anyone that comes from FFVII but I'm not going to say they suck just because they are from that FF. Also I've never used omniwhatever is it like a chain like Holy combo? I also know that his air HP game is not terribly awesome but his air brv. attacks look very good; and like I said I'll just equip all 3 handicap remove abilities. Also NEVER say I like cloud again (He's my least favorite Char. other than Tifa) and the only character I think sucks is CoD and I have good reasons.

---------- Post added at 11:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 PM ----------

But anyway I'm done talking. (But if cloud does have a chain move I don't know about I would like to know which move it comes from (To complete my ability collection))

Wonder how Kraid will react to that last thing lol. I'm not gonna allow anymore spam now, this is for discussing the topic at hand and thats it. If you have an informed useful opinion, feel free to post it, if not, well....don't lol.

Every day that goes on I feel EX mode is just sorta useless. I know if for example I go ahead and remove guard abilities, yes I could equip EX mode, but it feels like it won't be worth it all, especially when you get rule sets that emphasize the choice between EX and assist. I feel the extra 50 CP is better suited on either defensive or movement options at this point

[Arphesol]

Btw. my friends think you (Kraid) are the type of person who say people suck at a game just because they are being experimental with moves. Oh they also think you are the type of person who thinks swordslash is a good move. (These my friend's thoughts not mine, please don't get mad at me I already said I'd stop talking, I just think everyone should have a say in things)

[The3p1cN3cr0p4th]

You aren't helping yourself here dude. It might be wise to quit while you're still ahead.

Being experimental is what we have to right now more than ever because of all the changes and additions made to Duodecim over Dissidia. Anyone who bashes on that is a moron, which Kraid certainly isn't.

In any case, given that we've essentially freed up another 50 CP (whether it's from Guards or Dodges is irrelevant at this point since we still need to find out what's less necessary in PvP), what are we going to spend it on?

We have Critical Abilities, Assist Abilities, Defensive Abilities, and Movement Abilities to choose from. Like Kain, it's seems as if these last 50 points will be dictated almost entirely by the stage that you're on.

On smaller stages Criticals, and Movement become less of an issue since Desperado's melee game is phenomenal and the stages are too small for them to matter. Conversely, on larger stages Movement at least becomes much more necessary, while Critical depends more on your opponent (if I was fighting a Squall or other Brave rapist I'd equip them but otherwise no). Assist abilities seem to remain universally useful so the only question remains, which ones do we equip.

[Kraid]

SwordSlash is a good move since it's an amazing poke (It was certainly the fastest move in the entire game in Dissidia. I hear they nerffed it now but it's still good.)

As for the 'Equip any random level 100 armour to be unbeatable' comment... thanks for showing your lack of experience. We're not here talking about Player V A.I., we're here to talk about PvP which shows that you and your friends don't know ANYTHING if you guys think that Sword Slash is a bad move (Because it's a staple Firion move.)

The fact you also think CoD sucks is another misnomer and shows again your huge lack of inexperience in the game. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind people talking and saying their opinions, but when you sprout out misinformation and then continue on talking without checking and reading anything then I suggest you take a seat back and read the information posted before you talk about your own 'experiences' and how they seem radically different.

No, I wouldn't think people suck if they experiment with moves. That's the nature of Dissidia and its games: All about Experiments. Desperado Chaos is the biggest experiment of a character which is why I love him so much: Because there's far more to him you can do with him BECAUSE he is so limited.

Anyways Necro:

I would universally put them on dodging abilities. If you know you're on a small stage, you could avoid them but universally people will pick random stages most the time or open ended stages so the dodge abilities will be better suited than blocking abilities.

I don't think keeping Block is a good idea: Desperado can easily hit through all attacks that already can be blocked with several of his braves and HPs. I just see no reason what so ever to keep blocks at all. Keep the Dodges and either spend it on Aerial + Ground Evasion Boost and maybe a critical OR Aerial Evasion Boost + Precision Dodge. That's my plan.

I don't really see anything else to equip to him other than that.

[Kurayami]

I fight against people who use characters who have NO disadvantages (Onion Knight, Cloud, Jecht).

Please tell me that you're joking.

Anyways, I think that assists are great. I love doing combos with them. I don't use Ex Mode so much, because it requires much more Ex Force to get into, and Ex Bursts don't deal nearly as much damage as they used to. Although, Ex Revenge can be a monster with characters like Garland, so sometimes I prefer to build my Ex Gauge with him. But for the most part, assists.

[The3p1cN3cr0p4th]

What about the ability that lets you build assist just by dashing at your opponent? In Prologus that's how I built around 50-65% of each memory, hardly any camping for it.

[DevilTrigger]

The nice thing about having the assist dash is that its one of those few abilities that when mastered is the same for him as everyone else, costing 20 CP at the end of the day. Considering how often you'll likely be on open ended stages and how his movement is more limited to that, I think it's actually a really good option for him. The way I have it right now (once I finish mastering this move), he'll have 415/450 CP on. I'd like to sacrifice assist dash (or w/e it's called) for Precision Dodge, which would also be a good tool, though the way I'm going to try and experiment with is the usual stuff, Assist Build Dash (I should look up the name lol), Controlled Recovery (I think the ability to recover like that COULD certainly be useful, so that instead of being completely stopped by an opponent you're advancing on in the air, you can recover closer to him narrowing the gap) and Aerial Evasion boost.

Of course, because we're all so limited in CP, everyone has to try there own ideas and things, get there own style (which will really play into Desperado since you are limited), and just experiment with all the options at hand. For smaller stages though I'll likely swap out Aerial Evasion boost for Counterattack or something, since on a small stage chances are you'll be landing counter attacks like crazy

[Arphesol]

Lol, I don't know a thing about dissidia I'm just posting what my friends are telling me to post. Apparently they got a kick out of it though, anyways I am actually very sorry Kraid; I know you are a good player and I should listen to what you say if I do get the game. Anyways the whole reason I joined this site was to learn more about the game because I heard there was a sequel coming out and the first game looked pretty good. You can ban me from the site if u want, I'm done here; I just want to know if this would be a good game to get even for people who don't even know the concept of final fantasy (Me). Anyway like I said before I'm very sorry and I'm ending this idiotic argument right now. (And getting mad at my friends for making me sound like an inexperienced fool)

[DevilTrigger]

Lol, I don't know a thing about dissidia I'm just posting what my friends are telling me to post. Apparently they got a kick out of it though, anyways I am actually very sorry Kraid; I know you are a good player and I should listen to what you say if I do get the game. Anyways the whole reason I joined this site was to learn more about the game because I heard there was a sequel coming out and the first game looked pretty good. You can ban me from the site if u want, I'm done here; I just want to know if this would be a good game to get even for people who don't even know the concept of final fantasy (Me). Anyway like I said before I'm very sorry and I'm ending this idiotic argument right now. (And getting mad at my friends for making me sound like an inexperienced fool)

You don't need to make excuses, just try to ad hoc people and stuff, get better, then post and contribute here. The Dissidia community is one of the nicest chill communities I've ever been to for fighting (and fighter like) games, we're here to help each other after all. What you shouldn't do is post uneducated posts from your friends (who you were insulting btw lol) and argue. Arguments can happen between people on a character sure, but in the end we are helping everyone who uses that character to become better and more effective with them, while competiting at the same time.

Btw Necro, did you ever re-upload Lux Magnus btw, I still haven't seen it up yet

[Yorunightcast]

Sorry if i don't know what I'm talking about(Don't have duodecim) but would choosing assist only (forgeting Null brave drain) be viable?
From what I can tell assist > EX because EX is asking for camping during it, and is made useless due to lack of Ex force and being countered by assist.
I also here when going for assist it lets you counter opponents while in air, and etc as assists normally do.
This lets me think that being camped would be less of a problem if you did assist only.
That and you are saving 50cp by not using 2 Null handicap abilities. Using this you could equip two more brv attacks for 10cp more than normal, or another hp attack.

Im thinking about mabey eruption+assist would be a nice counter to campers.
ex: a.)If opponent camps, use eruption
b.)When you have assist punish their dodge
c.)If they get hit, they get hit; If they choose to fall and avoid dmg from eruption that way, then they are no longer camping and
vunerable to attack again?
This would get the job done anyway? If any of you think it sounds possible, testing would be nice o3o?
btw, very much pure speculation

[Arphesol]

Uh I would like to say you are right and I am just making excuses, but I'm really not. You can ask me the most simple question about dissidia and I probably wouldn't know what the heck you are asking.

[DevilTrigger]

Sorry if i don't know what I'm talking about(Don't have duodecim) but would choosing assist only (forgeting Null brave drain) be viable?
From what I can tell assist > EX because EX is asking for camping during it, and is made useless due to lack of Ex force and being countered by assist.
I also here when going for assist it lets you counter opponents while in air, and etc as assists normally do.
This lets me think that being camped would be less of a problem if you did assist only.
That and you are saving 50cp by not using 2 Null handicap abilities. Using this you could equip two more brv attacks for 10cp more than normal, or another hp attack.

Im thinking about mabey eruption+assist would be a nice counter to campers.
ex: a.)If opponent camps, use eruption
b.)When you have assist punish their dodge
c.)If they get hit, they get hit; If they choose to fall and avoid dmg from eruption that way, then they are no longer camping and
vunerable to attack again?
This would get the job done anyway? If any of you think it sounds possible, testing would be nice o3o?
btw, very much pure speculation

Welcome to the forums there =).

I can understand from a new perspective why you would think that would be a good idea. You have the grasp that EX mode only will get you camped, but having no Null bravery is also asking for it. All an opponent would have to do is wait you out and avoid you until you are at the point of being broken, using there assist and access to superior movement options to keep you away, where as with the handicap removed, it's not nearly as easy, plus you have time to pick your spot and move in, cornering your opponent without being pressured by not only your opponent, but yourself as well

[The3p1cN3cr0p4th]

Uh I'll get to it soon, I promise.

Since we all seem to be stumped by the giant cost of his moves, why not equip Hero's Essence or whatever it's called? For 3 acc slots you get 60 CP which I'd say is pretty respectable.

As for using Eruption against aerial campers, I don't think the vertical range is quite large enough but I'll look into it.

[Kraid]

I wouldn't ban people Arphesol, I just wish people listened. That's all. And besides, OK, Cloud and Jecht have A LOT of disadvantages =P

[Yorunightcast]

ehh... well that removes the ability to save 50cp x.x well, so what about eruption(or mabey Fierce Break?) to say like ground jecht or a cecil assist? would that even be a way to knock an opponent out of the (lower part of) air?
As for abilities to equip elsewise, an assist build D. chaos sounds nasty with double hp and insane brv dmg option. Another dangerous build could be ex counter, but this would turn him into an odd garland(now if the brv dmg is still high enough? mabey it would still be fairly good)
Edit: Hero essence sound like a good idea, but if it changed to 3 slots for 60cp?(/off topic that would make my Ex kuja mad... well at least his new exmode is semi-useless anyway sooo. ex kuja=not viable.off topic/)
We should add a combo thread for possible and confirmed combos :P

[Arphesol]

Disregarding previous comments I would still like to know if I could pick up this game and not suck at it without knowing anything about FF?

[Yorunightcast]

Disregarding previous comments I would still like to know if I could pick up this game and not suck at it without knowing anything about FF?

From what I can tell duodecim is no different than dissidia on that matter, nothing like other FF's. You should be fine only getting FFDD.

[Agilaz]

You could, but knowing something about FF does help in understanding some of the things the characters do and say. If you're in it purely for the gameplay though, you should be fine.

Edit: On topic, D.'s assist game seems VERY fascinating. And challenging. I like challenge. Can't wait for my pre-order to arrive. Where's Ultimecia when you need her to tinker with time...

[Saint Vegas]

Where's Ultimecia when you need her to tinker with time...

Or release it, amirite?

Is there like, an assist list or guide anywhere? It seems like way too much to experiment without like some direction, and the only ones I ever hear about are Jecht and Aerith.

[The3p1cN3cr0p4th]

Just as an aside, what are Desperado's moves when he's used as an Assist? If Via is his ground move people are screwed to hell, combined with just about any move it's a guaranteed HP hit.

[DevilTrigger]

Just as an aside, what are Desperado's moves when he's used as an Assist? If Via is his ground move people are screwed to hell, combined with just about any move it's a guaranteed HP hit.

Can you actually use him as an assist? I've gone up and down the assist list numerous times, and not once have I SEEN him selectable. I was going to make a little section for using him as an assist in my guide....but I couldnt find him lol

[Arphesol]

So is Desperado a good starting character or should I choose someone else? (I might actually get the game)

[Kraid]

Desperado cannot be used as an assist.

[The3p1cN3cr0p4th]

Uh. You'll need to master other characters to even have a remote chance of unlocking him, but otherwise yeah.

[Arphesol]

Oh you have to unlock him T_T. Anyone have any suggestions for a good physical char. who is easy to use with big combos?

[Kraid]

Oh you have to unlock him T_T. Anyone have any suggestions for a good physical char. who is easy to use with big combos?

There isn't really anyone like that in Duodecim any more.. but Jecht is a good character for that. If you want to ask around, ask in your intro thread (like you already have) or in one of the Duodecim discussion threads.

[Arphesol]

Great news. I just called my friend and since he has no use for his Dissidia he is going to let me borrow it, yay!

[Zero_Ruzai]

I wouldn't call Jecht a good starting character. It looks like Desperado would be pretty easy to beat with Exdeath since he spams HP attacks. I would go for that. Firion seemed like a good matchup as well. If you're good with memorizing the time for combos and button pressing, then give Jecht a try. I hear he's much easier to use in Duodecim, which is why I won't be using him as my main any longer. Takes the fun out of him.
Watching 1 vid on YT, Desperado Chaos with the BRV drain (which was VERY slight from what I saw) in combination with both EX and Assist worked wonderfully. However, it seems, after watching more vids, sticking with Assist only is probably the best.
1 flaw I see is, if the opponent tries to escape, you have the assist to use, so there's no escaping just to watch the BRV drain. The opponent still has to attack or will get hit by the assist, and by the time they're done dodging and all that, Desperado will be on top of them.

This is only from what I've seen of course. Since I haven't played the game yet, no official calls from me.

[Kraid]

When I said take this whole 'Starting character' thing to another thread, I hoped people like you Zero Ruzai would listen...

Ok guys, I'm going to show some statistics now. I want to show how 'slight' this brave decrease REALLY is.

Brave Loss per Tick (We'll say this is per second which is pretty close. This is the same in both unequips and equips): -13

Strong Arm on a unequipped Lightning does 48, 56, 56, 80 + 20 Wall Rush (This is in unequips. Granted we also must HIT Lightning.)

Granted Average matches are around 4 minutes long at the moment: That's a total off 3172 bravery lost without even being attacked.

Now play someone who camps you over and over for when you got enough brave to kill. They WILL camp you making matches last easily up to more than 12 minutes.

[DevilTrigger]

When I said take this whole 'Starting character' thing to another thread, I hoped people like you Zero Ruzai would listen...

Ok guys, I'm going to show some statistics now. I want to show how 'slight' this brave decrease REALLY is.

Brave Loss per Tick (We'll say this is per second which is pretty close. This is the same in both unequips and equips): -13

Strong Arm on a unequipped Lightning does 48, 56, 56, 80 + 20 Wall Rush (This is in unequips. Granted we also must HIT Lightning.)

Granted Average matches are around 4 minutes long at the moment: That's a total off 3172 bravery lost without even being attacked.

Now play someone who camps you over and over for when you got enough brave to kill. They WILL camp you making matches last easily up to more than 12 minutes.

Ah numbers, what can't they solve. To further follow up that for you people going how big of a deal could it possibly, if you HIT, you make a net gain of 221 brave (260 raw damage, minus about 39 for the 3 ticks that using strong arm will produce). If missed that's a net "gain" of -39 bravery, a possible punish since you just missed, and even more ticks as you regain ground to hit again. Starting bravery unequipped is 667 (right? I forget atm lol), which means at the 13 second tick it will take 51 seconds for you to lose all bravery if no bravery is exchanged.

Given the slower motion of Desperado on a large stage like Empyreal where they could potentially avoid you for easily twice as long to get in, let alone factoring assists and pokes, you'll be broken in roughly 30 seconds at best at that rate. I can crunch the number of equips as well, but trust me, it won't be much better.

[Arphesol]

I did watch a few desperado vids and using his EX attack isn't even worth going into EX form with, especially since the opponent can apparently fight back. If I ever do play as him I'm not using EX force handicap remove.
(Oh also I stayed up all day from 1:00 AM- now playing dissidia, It's awesome; Squall and the Emperor RULE!)

[Zero_Ruzai]

When I said take this whole 'Starting character' thing to another thread, I hoped people like you Zero Ruzai would listen...


My bad, but since it does have something to do with a character as a matchup versus Desperado, it makes sense that it could fit here. I suppose just a PM would have worked. Good call though.

[Shari]

What about his options in Ex-Revenge ?

Surely he should be able to put out some ridicolous damage in it and it would allow him to get of a HP attack rather easily.

Or is the benefit of assists simply that much better ?

[Kraid]

What about his options in Ex-Revenge ?

Surely he should be able to put out some ridicolous damage in it and it would allow him to get of a HP attack rather easily.

Or is the benefit of assists simply that much better ?

Ex-Revenge gives him some nice stuff. His exclusives also give him +40% Ex-Mode Duration and Revenge Duration. But the Assists will allow him to hit more often than Ex-Revenge due to the fact Ex-Revenge is far more situational than Assist.

Simply put: To use an Assist the only requirement is for Desperado/Feral to be able to hit with ANY of his attacks.

For Ex-Revenge he needs a full EX Bar + The opponent to hit him + Not to get hit by Assists + Not to have Cores/Force sniped from him via Chase/Core AND happens far less often than he can assist.

[Shari]

So apparently the EX-burst dimension causes all his brave attacks to become unguardable.

Should be able to setup some form of endless loop of damage with his kick projectiles in the air or similar moves.

Getting the EX-burst itself is hard but hitting with one of his multi-hitting HPA will allow you to hit-confirm and activate EX on reaction.

Might make the EX vs Assist choice a bit more even but Assist is probably still the better choice.

On the subject of Assist choices i have been using Cecil but is there perhaps better choices ?

[Zero_Ruzai]

Went reviewing through some vids and info on Chaos.
Assists are the way to go apparently, but man, if Chaos goes into EX burst... it's over lol. BRV attacks are unguardable and he attacks like a boss. It also seems he abosrbs EX more than other characters, although this may not be guaranteed.

He gains Assist rather quickly though, making combos deadly, and easily chaining into ground HP attacks. So all in all I would say assist is better, but if you want an awesome way to crush your buddies, try the EX mode every now and then

[Shari]

On another note i really don't see why any opponent would use HP attacks while in his exburst unless it would net them a win as it's an instant break for him by activating after taking the hit.

[The God of Despair]

What if he didn't have assist or ex... what if he was given more attacks to decimate his enemies with, you could cancel his bravery drop, then put on at least 4 brave and 4 hp attacks then still have dodge, all you need to do is make good use of his guard crushing attacks,
or even taking away some hp attacks to have 6 brave attacks while having air dash and maybe using chase to kill. (Just a thought, i'm kinda new to the game and these forums)