Custom rulesets' discussion

[Lord Shmeckie]

The thing is that you're trying to make EX more like it was in DFF. As I said, it's not meant to be something used multiple times. I get EX with my CoD nearly every match I play with my current build, and more frequently twice because of the length of my matches (FLEE IF YOU CAN trololol). What EX is for is a trump card, for assist breaks, EX Burst, emptying the assist gauge before a finishing blow, and massively damaging EXRs. It's meant to be used very rarely, probably once a match. It's not meant to be on equal grounds with assists, the two serve completely different purposes in terms of frequency of usage and how they are to be used.

Exactly. Assist are there to extend combos, but EX is there for a big explosion of fuckery. Either to fuck shit up with your EX Mode's bonus ability and rack up some hits, or an EX Revenge combo to devour a chunk of life.

[axeeeeL]

there was absolutely nothing i missed. the only thing you stated was that "this tournament wasn't to balance the game," and clearly this is a test tournament because it wasn't official and no prizes were given. test tournaments test new things and explore possibilities that could possibly balance the game more. there is absolutely no reason for a test tournament to make the game more broken.

nice try. you can continue to insult people to cover up for your failures all you want, but the fact of the matter is that you're a bad tournament host (olololol changing CP systems mid-tournament LMAO) and you come up with awful rulesets.

[TKG09]

K Genesis... if you arenot trying to balance the game nor to make a viable ruleset for bigger tournaments... THEN WHAT THE FUCK WAS THE POINT OF THIS WHOLE TOURNAMENT?


Anuway, on the ruleset itself:

I orriginally said that this ruleset was a "step in the right direction", but boy, I was wrong. Very wrong. I've been convinced that anything that is not Official is BS for reasons already stated by others, in particular this one, as it was trying to make this DFF and it increased the gap between "good" and "bad" characters. My points about the CP system still stand though.

[Aveot]

Not totally sure what the big deal is here. While some things could be dialed down In a feedback thread you are absolutely bound to have some disagreement.

Not seeing how Rei-N's wall of text was "retarded" as it was all pretty constructive criticism. If Rei-N asked members of the community their thoughts and this was what was compiled one would think there would be willingness to accept it as advice.
Whenever you do something like host tournaments there is going to be disagreement with some things and you simply cannot expect shit to be sugar-coated. TBH Rei-N's post was pretty mild and offered a lot of advice as to what people in the community would expect from future tournaments, while referencing similar issues from past tournaments as a result of unique or restrictive tournament rules.

TBH I do not think rule changes or restrictive setups will ever be able to truly balance this game. Instead of constantly changing them in order to shift the cast around I think we simply need to let it settle and let people figure shit out on their own. Exdeath and Sephiroth are powerful but far from unbeatable, and if we simply give the game time players will develop tactics to beat them. Yes, there will be shit matchups here and there but rarely is there a fighting game that *doesn't* have shit matchups. I feel as though instead of restricting constantly we should let the rules be as expansive as possible short of something truly gamebreaking. A proper gear setup is as powerful as great play, and I feel as though we should allow players to utilize both. Let's face it, the actual combat in Dissidia is pretty shallow, but I believe we could see a lot of interesting stuff if we simply let people build whatever the hell they wanted(within non-gamebreaker territory.)

Not only would the above add some interest to the game, but it would actually make quite a few characters more viable and overall balance the game more than hurt it. Remember how Shantotto was in DFF in KaoS/6999? Now remember how she was in geared fights.

While I'm not against experimentation with the rules I believe there needs to be a wider sweep in testing it before condensing it into tournament form, test tournament or not. Ask around for people to try it out and gather replays, results, data, opinions and all that good shit before trying it out. When you gather a bunch of people together to play a ruleset that no one ends up liking for hours on end, things are gonna get frustrating and the tournament will be less enjoyable to its participants. When that happens, shit like all this backlash happens.

TL;DR Tournies need to have more expansive rulesets as opposed to more restrictive. Dissidia combat is shallow and dull(overall does not require much skill), gear system could make for some interesting stuff and, dare I say it, depth. I want to see someone break out of the usual mold of gear setups and come up with some real crazy shit.

[Narolf]

I'll make a formal digression.

http://dissidiaforums.com/showthread...ed-06-15-2011)

Do not abuse the reputation system. Do not make topics asking for more (positive/negative) reputation, and do not use the reputation system as a way to anonymously insult other forum members. All comments must adhere to rule 1.

The flux of the reputation system are totally transparent to Mass and Spyder.

On another side note, even though it is none of my business, I can't tell how there could still be so much flaming after this line of Rei's.

Ninjas are by no means, terrible terrible scourges to the world and internet. You guys simply are showing a lack of understanding and appreciation in fostering a competitive scene from scratch, especially given that the game you're working with is trash too. I can see the ambition and dedication, which is great. It just needs to be focused and refined, or put under a better leadership. Whatever, this staff and it's its logic is beyond this soulless Japanese fighter.

[Spyder]

I think it's about time I step in to clarify a few things for the both sides that are currently arguing here, for I see too many false assumptions and even more confusion on this matter. I'll start with addressing the crowd that believes that the ruleset is a step in the right direction, first.

The first thing I noticed when testing this ruleset and trying to find better variants to it is that SE gave us a half-finished tool. There is simply not enough parameters to truly get the result one desires and not enough options to complete an entire working custom ruleset. Tweaking one aspect of the game further upsets another aspect, which requires a "fix" by tweaking that...which then creates a whole chain of problems one after another.

Those who think that further reducing assist charge on miss is a step in the right direction, I ask: what happens if one has a full bar ready of EX with killing brave? Not only that, some characters don't have a problem using the same attack twice over to build assist, while other characters do. Some matchups actually fully depend on the assist camping strategy and this alone already upsets the game.

I also remember reading a suggestion on increasing the Ex Absorption, but testing showed that the further we increased it the less balanced the ex was received between two opponents. In fact this imbalance was apparent in a few matchups that occurred in the tournament. Characters who have easy access to chase were able to gather ex much faster than characters who lacked chase options. Increasing Ex Absorption further increased that rift in balance to a point where a single chase attack would give almost half a bar.

When I tried playing around with this ruleset, tried to create variants, and fix its flaws, it only became worse and far more convoluted. Yes, some may like these variants in one way or another, but as was stated earlier in this thread, if the custom ruleset becomes a preference, then the best preference to use is one that was already given (Off.Skill & Official).

As of now, I see no reason in continuing experimenting with this current ruleset, but that is because I tested it to death and tried out my own variants on my free time. Nothing's stopping anyone else to try to pick up the project and see what they come up with.

But as my view stands now, I'm almost convinced that we won't be seeing custom rulesets outside of casual play, simply because the tool that was provided to us isn't good enough to even try at tackling in balancing anything. There's simply not enough of options or parameters.

---

Now to address the other side of the argument. The purpose of this ruleset: mainly to test if custom rulesets are viable. The objective of this specific ruleset was to maintain focus on the players and less on external factors (this includes ex cores, assists, ex absorption), and was meant to balance not the game itself, but balance the in-game mechanics, namely assists and ex, only. It was by no means supposed to balance anything else. The custom ruleset itself was designed to give a complete different take on the meta than the official ruleset and to see, most importantly, if it can do that. The energy that was put into making this ruleset was enforced with a positive thought that custom rulesets were viable.

During the creation of this custom ruleset, there have been many interested parties that wanted to see a custom ruleset in a tournament setting. Some even asked if custom rulesets would ever be used in tournaments. And lets face it, friendlies are just that: friendlies. The best testing environment is in a competitive environment where people play to win.

In essence this ruleset, albeit failed to do what it was set out to achieve, did provide results. Negative results are still just that: results. The ruleset cannot be tweaked in any way to provide what is needed because the tools that were provided are just not good enough. Sure, some of you have been saying that custom rulesets aren't a way to go--for complete different reasons. However, there is also another crowd that needed to be addressed, altogether. The crowd that wanted to see a custom ruleset in action. And this type of test is better done early on in the game's development--to quickly and efficiently get rid of what doesn't work and concentrate on what does.

In conclusion, this ruleset was created with a thought that custom rulesets could work. Alot of time has been put into it to make it as balanced (assist/ex wise) as much as possible. The ruleset used in the tournament was the best one of its variants, any other tweaks only worsened the gap. And as seen in the tournament the best result is just simply not good enough and a good enough reason to move on. Again, some of you didn't even want to even touch the custom rulesets, and believe me when I say this entire experience wasn't meant for you. It was meant for the people that wanted to see it in action and bring everyone to the same page.

Lastly, despite the ruleset's failure, the tournament itself has gone rather smoothly. It finished under the allotted time and wasn't meant to harvest more than twenty players. The one mistake I see is creating brackets early on. But other than that, I believe the tourney was a great way of breaking the ice for some of the players that joined and was a great learning experience for them. I even know a few players that have considered it fun. There is always more than one side to each story, and our job here is to listen to each one. At least that's what I was always led to believe. The tournament, I think has succeeded in bringing everyone onto the same page regarding the tournament scene: custom rulesets do not belong in major events--a message that not everyone agreed with but hopefully with this tournament people will.

[Veysey]

My wife and I have been tweaking a custom ruleset and standardized equip set for ease of battles and "quick" matches - as well as putting more focus on battles. It started when Mel didn't want to get into making specific builds for every character and their match ups and we ran with it until we found something that we both enjoyed. I'll give the ruleset and the explanations so if anyone else wants to use/tweak it for their own enjoyment, they can.

We've dubbed it KAoS 012 since it borrows heavily from DFFs KAoS ruleset.

Equipment:
Impartisan
Tortoise Shield
Saucer
Reed Cloak

- Ex Intake +15m Bonus

Accessories:
Zephyr Cloak (Brv boost on dodge +2%)
Heart's Ease (Brv boost on block +2%)
Green Drop (HP +100)
Green Gem (HP +300)
Glutton (Absorb EX on being attacked)

No Summons
No Calendar Bonus
Any Abilities with CP

Rules:
Initial Stage BRV: 100 (Untouched)
Stage Brave Recovery: 100 (Untouched)
Banish TRap Damage: 100 (Untouched)
Warp Damage: 100 (Untouched)
Critical Hit Rate: 100 (Untouched)
Critical Damage: 100 (Untouched)
EX Core Appearance: 0 (Do not appear)
EX Core Absorb: 0 (No cores)
EX Force Absorb: 300 (up from 100)
Ex Mode Duration: 20 (Untouched)
Wall Rush Damage: 25 (Untouched)
Bravery Bonus: 10 (Untouched)
Stage Bravery: 100 (Untouched)
Assist Break: 0 (No assist breaks)
EX Break: 0 (No EX breaks)
Assist Gauge Charge (Attack): 20 (Down from 100)
Assist Gauge Charge (Hit): 250 (Up from 100)
Assist Lock Duration: 100 (Untouched)
Assist Gauge Depletion Rate: 100 (Untouched)
EX Damage from Assist Attacks: 200 (Up from 100)
EX Revenge Duration: 2 (Down from 5)

So here is the explanation so far:

Imp Set - To bring EX back into the game without relying on cores and to have a set that all characters can equip. Characters natural defense and attack show through with this as well.

Zephyr Cloak - Coupled with the low rate given for attacks now, pressuring with attacks is a double edge sword. The brave given isn't much, but it adds up if the opponent is trying to space you out.

Heart's Ease - Characters like Firion and Jecht who run high risks for using their blocks (potential charges for the CA on those attacks while they themselves do not build assist) are now rewarded more for success (just a little amount). Also rewards characters like OK who need to be a little more patient and rely on openings.

Green drops/gems - Just to bring the HP amount over 9999 and prevent 1 hit KOs. This was added because I got max brv a few times against her. OHKOs aren't a real problem in DDFF, so leave these out if you want.

Glutton - Attacking gives you assist but getting hit gives you EX. This puts more focus on EX/Assist balance and gives people the ability to use EX to dispel huge assist gaps (which, as we know, can be disgustingly hard to come back from sometimes).

No Summons or summons... use whatever you like. We just prefer clean battles is all.
No Calendar bonus - no brainer as it allows for EXP to abilities.
No restrictions on abilities to allow for personality and match up handling.

EX Core Appearance/Absorb - turned off to keep the battle focused on battle

EX Force Absorb - increased so that EX is gained with assist at a reasonable rate without killing off assists too often. Get about 1.5 bars per match on average.

Assist/EX Break: No breaks from these since EX happens a lot more commonly and encourages the use of EX mode more. With them on, it was too easy to EX break opponents even with the reduced assist building.

Assist Gauge Charge (Attack) - reduced so that it still builds, but isn't worth doing. Stops gauge reduction and gives you a bit extra but not worth camping for.

Assist Gauge Charge (Hit) - large reward for landing hits - enough to keep up with EX gain on the opponent. Get about 3 assists in most matches without considering charges.

EX Damage from Assist Attacks - deals more EX damage since EX is easier to gain and assists are harder to gain. Reward for landing assists is increased.

EX Revenge Duration - 2 seconds to either attack brv or HP. You have to make a choice. By the time they can EXR, you should have had ~2 assists so getting out of an EXR should be possible.


We've tested with Exdeath, Sephiroth, Jecht, Terra, Garland, Squall, Zidane, Kuja, Kefka, and Shantotto BUT we're hardly experienced with these characters, so what we've got so far is only based on beginner experience with most of these characters.

What was found was that melee characters build a lot of assist but also give out a ton of EX while ranged characters give out barely any EX and build assist much slower. EX didn't even really come into play in most ranged vs ranged matches and chase became important for grabbing EX in those matches. Overall, though, it feels pretty nice and clever assist/ex uses become important to prevent a lot of stuff from happening.

It's fun and pretty decent if you're a player who doesn't really care to spend your time equipping builds for each situation. For those coming from DFF, you might find a lot of familiarity on how matches play out with a little less turtling thanks to assists. EX is back in the game since EXR isn't as reliable (mainly used for breaks or guaranteed HP hits) outside of linkers (even so, you can keep assist just in case). Assists are still important but not as game dominating since long combos after an assist call will build EX for the person getting hit. Also, a lot doesn't really change - if your character was crap at building assist, they still are. So in the instance of Jecht for example, he's still bad - doesn't build easy assist and actually gives the opponent lots of EX, actually. The point wasn't balance in characters so much as Assist/EX and a standard ruleset that people can just use to have some fun.

THIS WAS NOT INTENDED FOR COMPETITIVE DISSIDIA. That being said, if anyone wants to talk about how to tweak it for competitive play, fill your boots - but I didn't make this for competition purposes.

[RDFMASTER]

I can see chase spam will give me a full ex bar in 2 chase sequence, starting with Lightning. Also, one Thunder Barret > anything will give me a full assist bar. Lack of Assist/Ex Depletion makes me sad

[TKG09]

Everything RDF said basically.

Chase=Full EX=Massive Damage

No Depletion=Camping


I know this is just for casuals, but surely there will be scrubs suggesting it for competitive pretty soon, so I'll just say it now

[Dart]

Overall this is a nice idea Veysey. What worries me is 250 assist charge on attack though. After playing in teh Ninja's custom tournament they used a 150 assist charge on attack, and I thought that was a little overboard, especially with Squall. This is really the only thing I can comment on without properly testing the ruleset myself. RDF and TKG make good points as well.