Tier List Speculation

[Kurayami]

I think Garland's probably mid-tier. Although he lost his DC combos, Thundaga and Flare are very good additions to his game, and make him more viable to play as in the air. He's more of a rushdown character on the ground, with his unblockable BRV attacks and quick pokes, and more of a punishing character in the air. I don't think he's good enough to be mid high though. Then again, i'm not exactly a good player, so my opinion doesn't count for much.

[Khell]

It's not a contradiction. I specifically pointed out that should the Tier List truly be made with Official Ruleset in mind, it might not utilize specific builds, just aspects of the ruleset, such as Gauge Depletion.

Also, saying "A character would move up in the tier list due to having an Assist Build" is a bit of an empty statement. When you put it like that, you could give EVERY character a hardcore Assist build using Side by Side, A Comrade's Vow, etc. and they could ALL potentially "move up in the tier list" considering how insanely game-changing Assists are in DDFF.

This is one of the reasons that I believe that this specific game's tier list should be restricted (at first) to judging based on no equipment. It would make things much easier if we make the discussion about tools vs tools (which is what the Tier list matchups show, how well one character's tools work against another character's tools in a fight) without factoring in equipment. Once the "base" matchups are available, factoring in equipment (on another list, perhaps) may make organizing this much easier than trying to run around and basing one list on two entirely different ways to play this game.

Short version: I suggest we make one tier list for Off. (Skill) and one tier list for Official. They may not change much in the end, but there may be some matchups that can be made easier just through the use of a specific build. As mentioned before, Assist builds for characters who suffer from an inability to build assist, a specific build to help with "punishing" a low cooldown, spammable attack (BRV+% on dodge against Shadow Flare), etc.

[ChaosMuramasa]

I do like the sound of that, but it'd probably take twice as long as the old DFF tier list did, seeing as how we would need separate Off. (Skill) tournaments for accurate matchup data.

[Khell]

It would most likely be better in the long run. I get the feeling some tournaments in the future may run Official AND Off (Skill) to see how much equipment affects the meta (which is a lot).

[Kurayami]

We hardly ever have Off.(Skill) tourneys (apart from RoM, but that was only for Europe). I think we should just do Official. No need to over-complicate things.

[Khell]

But if they DO come up every now and then, wouldn't it be nice to have it for later? Besides, it makes a nice starting point instead of throwing everything into the fire at once and hoping for the best.

[Lord Shmeckie]

I think Garland's probably mid-tier. Although he lost his DC combos, Thundaga and Flare are very good additions to his game, and make him more viable to play as in the air. He's more of a rushdown character on the ground, with his unblockable BRV attacks and quick pokes, and more of a punishing character in the air. I don't think he's good enough to be mid high though. Then again, i'm not exactly a good player, so my opinion doesn't count for much.

Actually, the more I learn about him, the more I think he has potential to place in the higher mids, or lower highs. His aerial punishing game is fantastic, especially since he can punish on reaction with some hard-hitting shit. His aerial lance attack can punish a dodge (cancel) on reaction, and plow through projectiles. Assist Change>Thundaga and Cyclone make him a dangerous character to even use an assist against (and being well-protected from assists is a BIG advantage in this game), and once he has a full EX Meter, he can do awful, awful things to people be it offensively with his excellent EX Mode ability, or defensively with the strongest EX Revenge combo in the game. Not to mention all his wall rushes allow for plentiful assist combos. He's got the ability to make great use of every aspect of Duodecim's fighting system.

Garland's got it goin' on!

Also, saying "A character would move up in the tier list due to having an Assist Build" is a bit of an empty statement. When you put it like that, you could give EVERY character a hardcore Assist build using Side by Side, A Comrade's Vow, etc. and they could ALL potentially "move up in the tier list" considering how insanely game-changing Assists are in DDFF.

You're exaggerating, here. In fact, talk like this really makes me think people are just getting so exasperated by getting hit with frequent Assist combos that it's making them think Assists are more powerful than they are. Yes, they'r epowerful, and they're necissary, but an Assist Build would just be detrimental to a lot of otherwise strong characters. Like the aforementioned Garland, who would lose his beastly EX Mode and EX Revenge.

[Kurayami]

@Khell: I dunno. I see where you're coming from, but... I don't really see the point in using Off.(Skill) as the base for an Official tier list. As you said, equipment and accessories can change matchups, so it's kind of redundant to start off with Off.(Skill) when the Official tier list will be different anyways. Plus we probably won't end up having many Off.(Skill) tournaments. I think it just over-complicates things.

Sure, it's good to think of the matchups without equipment and then factor the equipment in, but I don't think it warrants its own tier list. That's basically what i'm trying to say.

@Shmeckie: Well, when you put it like that, it makes him seem awesome xD My only worry is whether his buffs are enough for him to keep up with the likes of Kuja.

[Lord Shmeckie]

Plus, it's been established Off. (Skill) isn't as fair as once thought.

1000+ BP Bardiche, anyone?

[OranGemeo]

I totally agree with what you're saying, Lord Shmeckie. While assist builds are very annoying, I love punishing it with being able to snag EXmode (and it goes faster if they have no absorption at all) with some of the better Exmodes. I love using Kefka and Terra's EX's for sure.