5K brave... fundamentally broken... because half the battle won. Ultras, Supers, Distortions, X-Rays, etc all can win "about half the battle" with a successful hit. And before you say "but I know what Ultra/Super/etc they're coming into the battle with". Does that really matter when 95% of the time, an experienced player is only going to use them when they are guaranteed? A lot of these characters getting their ~50% damage from fishing with a light/quick attack ... sometimes as fast as 3 frames. Heck, some characters can get these things to activate and drain 50% of your life by hitting you with all but a few specific openers. Meaning you'd have to basically (save for a few moves) not get hit to keep that 50% life.
This 50%+ is not considered broken in other games - why is it broken in Dissidia? It doesn't make the game unplayable (maybe unenjoyable for some of you, but that, by definition, is not broken). It doesn't change match ups any more than well chosen accessories/equipment does. It doesn't dilute the game to "choose this summon or lose". There is nothing actually BROKEN about summons.
As for Alexander, if you're so worried, run Syldra. You knock out Demon Wall, Shiva, Alexander, Taimat, Titan, Atomos ... god, anything that delays it's effect (it can effectively counter 25 summons iirc and nullifies counter summons). Heck, Syldra even makes a laughing stock out of PuPu (their brave halves, then you cancel the effect - leaving them at half brave). This one summon takes care of a LOT of options. "But Veysey, I want quick easy kills, too" - no, no you don't. You've just got done complaining that this is what you're worried about which means - you should be playing more defensive summons and attempting to nullify the summon game - relying on your characters assets. If you're looking to be aggressive, accept the risks that come with it (being that one defensive summon can cover multiple aggressive summons).
You know when someone wants to break you - and if you want to cover a decisive point in battle where maybe you think Cactuar, DeathGaze, Behemoth, etc will be coming/as a break draws near - why not run Ramuh. Hecaton-whatsitsface can nullify the effects of an assist/EX/brave break if you're worried about that. Typhoon bypasses Alexander and can really screw with their gameplan - adding a little chaos to things (going from 5k to 500 25% of the time? That's pretty lol worthy). Oh, and DeathGaze works through Alexander, so they'd better hope their not getting 0/5. So does Odin for that matter.
From what I see in summons, the most powerful tactics have multiple counters. The less effective tactics have fewer counters - making the risk/reward balance quite reasonable. You want to run something multipurpose as offense and defense, you let luck dictate or dilute your offense. You want pure offensive, you can control it, but there are a lot of counters.
Lets do a little game theory, here. If Slydra is a strong counter to delayed effect summons, but doesn't work on instant effect summons (like Cactuar, Carbuncle, and other instant effect summons), then they are the counter to Slydra. Other defensive summons like Demon Wall, Shiva, Ramuh, counter summons, etc are effective against instant effect but are open to some delay effect summons. By realizing what you as a player might want to rely on ( a lot of competitive games dictate higher level play by playing the player, not the game), I can effectively counter it. If I want to take more risk, I need to choose less adaptable summons but if I want to be safe, I can knock out a HUGE number of possibilities (risk/reward - another common competitive mechanic). I'll be honest, this dynamic sounds EXACTLY like what most competitive games revolve around - a dynamic that is not broken in the least... unless, of course, you're new to the game and don't understand the meta (even then, it's not broken, you're just playing a stacked guessing game because you don't understand the meta yet).
This is exactly where I feel Dissidia Forums is: Trying to grasp the meta, but failing - and thus, calling the mechanic broken and unfair.
Also, assists counter some summons, too. Like Cactuar - they use it and you change out with 2 bars - and potentially get a charge? Sure, you're left with 0 brv most of the time, but you've just taught them to never use Cactuar while you have assist meter if they want that 100% break. Same with Iron Giant in some match ups (mainly multihit/linked HPs) - you knock out their possibility to easily halve your brave with a bunch of their moves. So once again, run, build assist, return to the match. Assists - once again - are a strong focal point with an effective counter to yet another set of tactics. Oh, and don't forget to abuse Dissidias MOST effective tactic versus some summons - running away.
Edit: Oh, and as for this discussion being solely for the ladders and whether to ban them once - there are certain people overlooking this conversation using the information to decide how to approach future events in terms of rulesets. So it's not as pointless as some of you may think.
Last edited by Veysey; 09-24-2011 at 05:21 PM.
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Which is precisely why an experienced player is then NOT going to use their summon, if they see you have a means of escape. This and running away both seem a means of merely delaying the inevitable. You're left with no summon, and they still have theirs.Originally Posted by Veysey
The very same Syldra that will be of no use whatsoever against the other major damage dealer Behemoth (in fact, it will help by removing the consequent bravery reduction). To name a bunch, also useless against Ifrit, Carbuncle, Magic Pot, Magus Sisters (the initial 50% reduction), Odin, Cactuar, and iirc does nothing against the counter elemental fiends with the exception of Cagnazzo (though I don't see what the use would be in popping Syldra without an enemy summon active anyway, so discussing its efficiency against counter summons seems... redundant). I do agree that it is a helpful tool to nullify a variety of summons, but it is far from foolproof and its use still requires a definite element of luck... or as you put it yourself, stacked guesswork. A counter summon like Syldra will for the most part revert the playing field to its state pre-summon, or fail completely. However, unless on the slim chance the opponent was running PuPu, it will not stack the odds in your favour, which is what a variety of other summons are out to do. Therefore, there was no risk on the opponent's part calling their summon, if their greatest danger was that their offence would return to normal. I don't call that risk/reward. I call that no risk/probable reward. Whereas if you wish to use a summon defensively, your foreseeable outcomes are likely to be either neutral or disastrous. Yes, I believe choosing a summon comes down to stacked guesswork, you choose your summon before the fight has begun... how on earth can your prediction be based on skill when you're predicting before you've even started fighting? If that means I don't understand the metagame, then call me ignorant.
I think there's a very big difference between high damage factors that must be earned (closest equivalent in this game being building up gauge and comboing to an EX burst?), or comeback factors (closest equivalents = assist charges, EX revenge perhaps?), to a potentially huge advantage available at the simple click of a button. Besides: supers, ultras, distortions, all take a degree of skill to execute; I can't possibly see pressing R+Circle as a comparable mechanic, whether it be during a combo or otherwise.
Say you're playing SSFIV; you could give yourself a further chance in a losing round by burning your meter to use EX in a combo, or you can save that meter to give yourself a better chance next round with a combo into super to drain half your opponent's health; that I call balancing risk and reward, thoughtful meter management, and the execution of either strategy will certainly take a degree of skill. I somehow don't think 'I done landed break, hurr hurr time to hit R+Circle' compares to that.
Take BlazBlue for another example. You're in a tight spot in the first round, do you burst to get out of that predicament? Perhaps it is best saved for a subsequent round to avoid being at a disadvantage, and there's the possibility the opponent is baiting the burst and will then continue the combo. However, a counter-offensive may be necessary. Either way there will be a penalty to using that get-out mechanic because you'll lose guard primers for it. So there's a guaranteed setback to a gamble that could make or break the fight. That is risk/reward, and there are skillful uses/counters to this mechanic. I really do not feel summons are balanced in this way, and they certainly do not take a similar level of skill. No, I feel summons are much more similar to items in Smash bros; which like Dissidia, was not designed to be a competitive fighting game. And we know how well items are received in the Smash meta now.
It's up to the community with a game that wasn't designed to be competitive to test these things in order to achieve a ruleset that can be considered competitive. We are shaping the metagame, not Square-Enix; who like Nintendo with Smash, included a variety of elements in the game that are not desirable at a competitive level.Whether this thread is seen as a debate on the use of summons altogether or not, I still believe the sensible route is to test gameplay without them. At the end of the day, much like matchup discussion, discussion can only go so far.
DDFF Status: Semi-retired :3
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Nitpicking, but being the only thing I would know about that you listed, I must point out that Distortion Drives usually do 3-4K, without factoring combo proration, and there are like 2 or 3 Distortions that exceed 5K (only ones I can think of are Tager's Emerald Geneisic Tager Buster, which does 5620, and Ragna's Devoured by Darkness, which does 6K. The former is possessed by a character with a command grab on par with many Distortion Drives, while the latter is easily the most impractical move in the game) Also, we aren't talking about JUST 5K from summons, it's more like 6-7K at the very least, when properly utilized.
In Dissidia, damage output is significantly lower than in the games you listed. The average BRV attack does about 200-500 damage, depending on criticals. That's about 2-5% of a health bar, assuming 10K (and it's usually somewhere between 9K and 11K). Exclusively landing HPs will take off about 900-1000 damage, which is about 10% of a health bar. Stage BRV, while more difficult to measure, is usually somewhere slightly below the 2K mark. In the games you listed, damage output per combo is significantly higher, so 50% or 100% is just not as big of a deal because everyone already does like 1/3 of a lifebar with most of their attacks/combos.
1) Syldra doesn't stop Behemoth, which is one of the problem summons that have been discussed.
2) Syldra, at best, doesn't do anything not playing with summons wouldn't accomplish, and if the opponent uses a summon Syldra can't counter, you've accomplished nothing, so Syldra is one of the least useful summons you could use.
Like the above statement, Ramuh, at best, does nothing playing without summons would accomplish, and that's if you can finish the match before the opponent's summon is unsealed, which is doubtful. More likely, you merely delay the opponent's summon, which hardly matters if they simply run away, which the top tier characters that are so problematic excel at.
Nobody's worried about assist/EX breaks because they rarely ever happen to competent players (not to mention that assist breaks are up to skill/not making mistakes. EX breaks can happen due to assist charges, but if that's the case the player in EX mode should have been more careful with their HPs), Typhon is luck based, Deathgaze is very unlikely to counter Alexander, and Odin is (again) luck based. This is, like I was referring to earlier with Shmeckie's list of counters, theoryfighting with summons. None of that is reliable or significant.
This is my opinion, but I think axeL knows more about the game here than anyone else, having played with yunoa and Ehx, the two best players DF was graced with, on a regular basis. So unless the most educated person about this game also fails to understand it, then this would be an inaccurate statement.
For the rest of the post, the point is that summons make the gaps between low tiers and high tiers more significant. Even if a low tier does counter the opponent's summon, it doesn't accomplish anything other than resetting the playing field to without summons. The more likely scenario is that the top tiers gain more of an advantage from their summon than the low tier. Either way, it would be more balanced if summons were removed from the scenario.
To summarize, the reasons against summons, in order of greatest to least importance in my opinion.
1) Summons create a larger gap in tiers, which makes the number of viable characters even smaller, makes it harder for lower tiers to win against top tiers, and makes the game more bland and imbalanced.
2) Summons require no skill to use, making the game even easier than it already is and diluting the competitive aspects of it.
3) Summons involve massive amounts of BRV which heavily imbalances the fights and makes comebacks, an already difficult prospect, even more difficult, if not impossible with OHKO combos, such as those made possible by Alexander. Worth noting to be the same primary reason Omega stages are banned, due to the imbalanced stage BRV.
Last edited by LonelyGaruga; 09-24-2011 at 09:25 PM. Reason: Trimming and stuff
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This is my opinion, but I think axeL knows more about the game here than anyone else, having played with yunoa and Ehx, the two best players DF was graced with, on a regular basis.
He does, which makes the whole situation really ironic considering the consensus about the main problem of this scene always was that the metagame is shaped by people who don't have what it takes for such task.
you shouldnt even compare DDs to summons... why are you even bothering comparing these mechanics? DDs are supers. that's it. the fact that you compared tager's super (who is a grappler who's SUPPOSED to deal a lot of damage on a 720/1080 super) shows that you really dont know what you're comparing. ragna's super that you also mentioned also requires for him to be in blood kain plus the fact that it scales heavily and requires comboing into... not that it really matters, because people only go into BK if they know that they can win off of a blood kain combo.
you really dont see very many ragnas besides the good ones go into blood kain, mainly because of its huge drawbacks if you fuck up, and even then i see some very renowned japanese ragnas fuck up blood kain combos before.
a large reason of why dissidia is so bland and why so many players have quit is mainly because of the meta, but the tournament scene here is definitely at fault here as well. i dont see why people wouldnt consider me one of the more knowledgeable players; i thought that was really obvious by now. i play almost every single character in the game and yet i do it a thousand times better than any other player who actually mains that character... that should already be enough to show that i know the mechanics of this game inside-out.
PSN - axeei
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I'll be the first to admit it, you really shocked me with how much you've stepped your game up since the end of DFF/the beginning of DDFF.i dont see why people wouldnt consider me one of the more knowledgeable players; i thought that was really obvious by now. i play almost every single character in the game and yet i do it a thousand times better than any other player who actually mains that character... that should already be enough to show that i know the mechanics of this game inside-out.
Sometimes towards the end of my Dissidia days I'd still catch myself thinking of you as that nub that first showed up in the IRC. But you weren't/aren't that anymore. I'll willingly admit you're better than the people I've noticed as of late, and you're definitely better than a lot of older members give you credit for.
I don't even know what this thread is about, was going to read it but axeL's post is the first one I read.
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