How do you feel about competitive Dissidia?
I feel this game has 1000x more potential than the first game to be played to a competitive standard. Revision of EX-Counter to EX-Revenge, better net-code, predetermined ruleset and replay feature with a pseudo-spectator mode; the game has everything it needs to be played competitively. I personally think the game offers too many easy rewards and get-out-of-jail cards with inclusion of assists, revised chase, removal of most DC combos and altering of certain character's gameplay thus creating a, in my opinion, more shallow gameplay. But those factors don't inhibit it in anyway to played in a tournament setting.
Do you see yourself as a part of the future of competitive Dissidia, and if you don’t, is there anything that could change your mind?
Only thing I can do at this point is tournaments, but even then my Dissidia ship has sailed off. Don't think anything would change that, simply because I think I have little to offer.
-Weekend Tournaments Vs. Month Tournaments.
Just the very concept of having 4-5+ days to prepare for a single round in a tournament is ridiculous. Weekend tournaments have proven to be doable in many games besides Dissidia, and I know it can be effective here. I've seen the horror stories of simple 8 man brackets done on the weekend here to take all day, but those can be accredited to poor accountability of TOs. The evidence is all around you kids, I could just cite the recent Phoenix tournament and it would be enough to show that monthly tournaments are an awful idea and should be stopped. Hell if you want more evidence just read EVERY monthly tournament thread done here.
-Official Vs. Custom Rulesets.
I don't see why this is still happening in a game like this. I cringe every time I see a custom ruleset for any tournament. Reading LoveyDovey and DMD put me in permanent David-Sirlin-Salt-Mode especially when they are conceived by players who should know better by now. The meta will continue to stagnate if rulesets keep jumping around from event to event trying to "balance" the game. Nothing will truly develop.
-Ladders/Point Systems as they tie in to the bigger picture.
Something Mike and myself wanted to do before we quit. Don't really want to go into detail on this personally.
-Tournament Organizers: Community Based or Staff Based?
I think TOs should be whoever knows what they are doing. Staff or Community. I miss the community based ones because they were TO'd (most of the time) by competent people. But in this case I would say this place desperately needs to reach out to the community more.
Last edited by Wedge; 01-30-2012 at 04:22 AM.
Reading LoveyDovey and DMD put me in permanent David-Sirlin-Salt-Mode especially when they are conceived by players who should know better by now. The meta will continue to stagnate if rulesets keep jumping around from event to event trying to "balance" the game.
...custom rulesets aren't meant to balance the game.
It's nothing but a matter of "to each their own" at this point, moreover when it comes from people who don't even partake in customs. I don't really mind re-explaining the roundabouts of those tournaments and why I host them the way I do (re: why I let people choose a ruleset and so forth), but an effort of open-mindedness from the both of us has to be made in that regard: I have the impression to be reliving the same discussions with the same arguments all over again on this forum, at times.
Also, to a personal extent, it's regrettable people keep making assumptions about the (Dissidia) player I am upon the basis of customs. I mean, to put it shortly, it seems as though some believe I still don't understand that the metagame of Dissidia comes down to a single line: "Safe moves or be punished". Note that also applies to European players in general.
As for the whole "8-man brackets horror stories" (guess that was axeeeeL who reported it to Dave who then reported it to you?), it occurred back when I was hosting ladders for the very first time (~ October): you don't know what truly happened on that saturday, you've only been acknowledged of his version. Yes, 8-man brackets still aren't beat within a single day in customs--that's because there is no prize. Doesn't prevent me to still put deadlines for rounds and they all seem to be content with that rhythmic. What is there to hate?
Honestly, I (still) think your vision is partially out of the loop with the reality of the Dissidia scene -as a whole- nowadays (it's very small which is saddening, yeah, but guess what? Not all of this debacle was due to poor management from the staff; it's just always easier to point fingers and blame individuals: I dropped Dissidia because of the Ninja's, because of the casual mindset, because DissidiaForums sucks!) and that you assume a lot when it comes to me as a TO or even as a moderator, just because I am no top player. I'll sum up my vision in three neat points I can expand at request.
For your information, Phoenix's ruleset has also been decided upon a voting process. Go figure.
- Global scene =/= European scene
- Majors/Ladders/Seasonals =/= Customs
- Official (with a few bans here and there?) = balance =/= custom rulesets = enjoyment
And no, #DDFFCasual isn't a bunch of prepubescent teens who have no idea of what competition is. When that argument was brought up to defend Ehx/axeeeeL/TKG, I took offense for the -extreme- disingenuous character of the thing; and if that self-conceived idea still needs to be shot down, I'll shot it down again.
Lastly, while I can seem passionate in my posts for having a hard time to dress my words better, I never moderate upon an emotion or "paranoia" like some people think. You don't create multi-accounts on a forum on the Internet, plain and simple. Forgot your password? VBulletin can mail it. Forgot your nick and there is no recovery-function for that? You're most likely too daft to post on a forum, but you can still mail its staff. Worst which happened in this drama was me making Yunoa's IP public--ironically, nobody called me on that one, absolutely nobody: I hided it on my own. If we were on a serious forum, I would've had been demoted plain right. That brings me back to my original point: the modship here is very poor (or at least used to be); it genuinely chooses to remain lax on dumb drama rather than killing it at the root. Azazer was completely right.
Can't tell if most of your points were aimed at me in particular, but I still reckoned myself in some of them.
Last edited by Narolf; 01-30-2012 at 06:46 PM.
I'm just going to stop talking at this point.
Last edited by Wedge; 01-30-2012 at 09:21 PM.
Gonna throw my opinions in here now since there's been time for others to voice their opinions:
- Weekend Tournaments Vs. Month Tournaments - I find it much easier to set aside a day (or two) to devote to a tournament rather than an entire month provided I'm good enough to make it to the top. We'd find less problems with people joining a tournament to bail halfway because their schedule changed (whether they knew of it or not).
- Official Vs. Custom Rulesets - Custom rulesets are fun, but I feel the focus should be on Official. It's already decently balanced except for the issue of Assist Charges (which are a terrible game mechanic). If the community finds faults with Official as a tournament ruleset after serious time spent using it as the tournament standard, THEN we move on to custom rulesets that are being created. Not before. (No offense intended to anyone making a Custom ruleset for the Custom tournaments)
- Ladders/Point Systems - Pretty sure there's already something in mind for tying together weekend tournaments with a larger weekend tournament for the idea of "seasonals", which I wouldn't be opposed to having or trying out.
- Tournament Organizers - I personally don't care if the TOs are DF Staff or community members. As long as they keep the ship sailing in a timely fashion, keep the drama away/in its place, and deal with things quickly and decisively, they're qualified to organize tournaments.
Keep in mind I'm someone that's been slowly in and out of the "tournament" feel since March, but I can't particularly explain whether that was due to the tournament standards that were in place before Phoenix, or if it had to do with my own interest waning. I'm willing to bet it was a combination of both. Exciting new things and the promise of fun is more than enough to bring someone like me back in, however (somewhat like Abracadabra did).
Last edited by Khell; 01-30-2012 at 08:33 PM.
Though apart, forever connected.
Above sig courtesy of Kayarine, sigs in spoilers courtesy of Kurayami and Waffles.
Hey Wedge. Before you made these misinformed baseless assumptions yourself about the purpose of custom rulesets in tournaments, did you stop to consider there are those among us who might not play competitively at all if their interest wasn't maintained by said rulesets? No? Didn't think so. You also seem to have conveniently missed the fact that official itself began to 'stagnate' fast for a number of us here.
I'm not suggesting for an instant that we replace official as the main ruleset. Major tournaments should use the official ruleset. But you can't just put your foot down and brand these events worthless, saying 'No. Custom rulesets provide no solid tournament data. They are useless :|'. Might I remind you players voted for these rulesets. These players had the option to play Official and chose not to.
I, for one, am happy to play official when it comes to testing matchups and the like. But my interest would have waned long, long ago if I wasn't playing alternative rulesets like DMD (which I find much, much more fun than official) in friendlies as well as custom tournaments. I wouldn't encourage so thoughtlessly dismissing these so-called "mario party" tournaments which help to maintain interest in what is already a tiny competitive scene.
I think there's a misunderstanding. I don't have a problem with custom rule sets or what players want to play. They're fun to lots of players. I was trying to say that the time and resources spent on custom tournaments should be spent elsewhere. I'm not saying playing them is bad or anything like that. For players that want to do customs I have no problem or issue. I was simply tryinge to state that there is less emphasis on standard tournaments as there should be. I apologize if my words came off otherwise. I have tendency to come off a little too blunt at times when I don't realize it.
Now I'm really done haha.
Last edited by Wedge; 01-30-2012 at 09:40 PM.
I'll be expanding on that one once Mike said the word, as that involves the direct future of the scene.
Last edited by Narolf; 01-30-2012 at 11:24 PM.
Here we go. Personal opinions here - nothing to do with my status as a moderator.
Weekend Tournaments Vs. Month Tournaments
I personally do not like the month long format but I do understand it has it's place to offer more accessibility and draw in more players. It does a good job of doing these two things. There are a number of problems that come with it, though. Like Wedge mentioned; having a couple of days to prepare for a certain opponent is a ridiculous notion from a competitive standpoint. Taking hours just to match up with someone is also a ridiculous notion by competitive standards. Most people treat a month long tournament LESS formally than they would a day long one. This is a little saddening because the Month longs are supposed to be the MOST serious tournaments. They're supposed to be the ones holding the most weight in terms of skill display and gathering of the best players.
That being said, it DOES make it more accessible to (reasonably) any player who is serious about competing. It also draws a lot of people to the site and brings more competition to all of us. This makes them worth it in my opinion ESPECIALLY considering the state of the competitive community right now. I think it's acceptable to have them semi-annually given the benefits versus the pitfalls they offer. The more often they happen, the less likely they are to accomplish the goals they're meant to accomplish.
For weekend tournaments, I love them because you know in advance, clear your calendar, and devote a day to playing other players. You go in knowing what you know and apply that the best you can. It's an accurate test of skill and knowledge in the game. It also shows which players have the best ability to adapt and evolve on the fly. Generally it's a lot easier to put aside a day than it is to put aside 2-3 hours every other day (coming from someone with a family, work, social life, etc).
It also keeps the entire experience of the tournament contained and TOs have much more room to run the tournament properly. Whatever the TOs need to choose to do is done quickly and efficiently most of the time and almost everyone walks away with a good feeling about what they got to do. Everyone is also centralized so even if you are eliminated early, you'll likely stick around and have some casuals with the other players who've also been eliminated (a HUGE part of the tournament atmosphere - remember, in double elimination, 25% of your participants will be out by the end of their second game if I recall correctly).
On the down side, if you can't attend a certain day, you completely miss out. The other downside is in comparison to the month long majors, it looks less formal and might not draw in as many players as the major could. These problems can't easily be remedied, either. If someone can't make it, they can't reschedule - they just miss out. If it gets too big, it becomes hard to manage in a single day because of the player amount (limited sign-ups alienate people as well - it's just not easily fixed). As you start adding days (even something as simple as Saturday AND Sunday), more timing problems happen, alienating players again.
The final problem here is that we're a global forum and have to address the issues surrounding timezones. Saturdays aren't too bad, but it usually means some are playing early morning or late night, while others have the comfort of playing at their prime time. If you add days (like a Sunday), it may become impossible for some players to play.
All in all, though, I say Weekend Format is best for most of the year and it should be up to the players to free up whatever time they can for certain events. Have 2 Majors a year just to cater to those who absolutely can't address the issues surrounding a day long tournament and to draw in new members.
Official Vs. Custom Rulesets
As of right now, I see no reason NOT to use Official in tournament settings. There is nothing broken about it (despite numerous complaints about various issues). Charges are a gamble just like criticals (yes, critical rates screw with me just as much as charge rates do) - either or can result in a lost break or gaining said break for example. It's the nature of the game and just something we have to deal with. It's not like specific PLAYERS have an advantage here. Other issues like summons or chases need to be PROVEN to be broken before I see a flaw in those designs (I issued a challenge in Phoenix that people could pursue easily without sacrificing winning and no one was able to prove summons were broken). In the end, we're still getting high quality matches out of official and character variety is still fairly present (actually) THANKS to assists and how they're incorporated. As of right now, the meta is in no place to be denouncing the use of Official in most settings.
For Customs, I don't feel they have a place in the main meta right now. That being said, there is NOTHING wrong with people experimenting and having fun with the game. SE put a rules editor in and the game is amazingly flexible for a reason. People can hold their own custom tournaments if they want, too. Again - there is nothing wrong with that. I think it's wonderful that we can have these fresh, new ways to play to help draw new players in without "throwing them to the wolves". I think it's even better that some of our veterans are finding renewed life and love for the game through these events and tournaments.
If customs are taken too seriously by some people, though, it creates a few problems. First being that they may assert opinions based on a ruleset that isn't officially used. We all know that in something like EX-Centric, you no longer have to worry about being assist punished so some otherwise stupidly unsafe moves are now completely viable and completely mess with the tier structure and how some MUs are viewed. Untangling that mess from less experienced players can be more than frustrating because they don't understand the finer workings of the game in most cases. DMD kills the "assist momentum" the game naturally has which messes with quite a few of the higher tiers in Official. Again, the misinformation can hurt the scene if the players aren't mature enough to tell the difference.
Another problem is it actually kills the drive to improve and break down the game if the player falls into the "fun" trap (yeah, most experienced players know exactly what I mean). When you start wanting to spend most of your casual time playing a desired ruleset (let's say DMD for example), you're potentially losing out on meta evolution, new tips and tricks that don't apply in DMD, and otherwise advancing a meta that holds little to no weight. When it comes Major time or some other tournament that uses official, you may have given yourself a disadvantage by not focusing on where the meta game actually is - making the experience a little less enjoyable (you're not able to play at the level you do in the Custom ruleset). The other issue with this is that more and more players whine about the problems in something like Official and become less inclined to play it. It becomes a spiral moving away from the accepted ruleset and players slowly become less likely to accept something like Official in Majors etc. They CERTAINLY become less inclined to evolve that meta.
The final problem is one Wedge mentioned and sort of ties everything I said together: People get that nice "high" from playing something new and exciting but never actually settle down into something - making it TERRIBLE for the meta game since no one really has a chance to adapt. They also crave that high and will keep seeking out new and exciting ways to play with little regard to proper character development.
All in all Customs to me are like a nice night on the town - it's great fun, you make some amazing memories, and get to just "let loose" but if you do it too much, you become unreliable, undesirable, and eventually hit rock bottom. I, in no way, have a problem with Customs, though and to those who enjoy them - I'm happy for you! Just be careful it doesn't interfere with your serious Dissidia goals.
Find me in the IRC and challenge me! I'd love to play against you!
Currently Playing: Work
Ladders/Point Systems as they tie in to the bigger picture
I've been talking with the other competitive mods about this for a while. We're currently getting ready to do our first test season which pushes this idea. The concept is to spend the "season" competing for points so you can get seeded into a limited bracket at the end of the season (Season Finals). The finals will have prizes so there is a strong incentive to compete for those points AND to get the best seeding possible. These points (as far as I'm aware) will also assist in Major seeding, so you're working towards that as well.
I'm a little close to the subject matter, but I feel it's a great way to promote competition and get players really involved in the competitive scene/Official ruleset setting. Points that mean something are a big plus in ANY competitive community. I don't think we're any different here.
For those who don't know exactly what Seasonals entail, all the information will be released come the end of February after we finish the testing season and we work out any unforeseen issues.
Tournament Organizers: Community Based or Staff Based
It doesn't matter. As long as the Organizers do their job well and the tournament runs smoothly, that's ALL people care about. One thing people have to understand is that conduct on the forum itself is handled by the moderating team while conduct in the tournament is for the tournament organizers. You cannot specifically be punished on the forum for say being a dick to one of your opponents over PSN/IRC (outside of channels run by the staff) but you CAN be disqualified for unsportsmanlike behavior. Please remember that a TOs job is to handle the tournament and hold no judgement based on forum behavior and Mods must do the same except in reverse.
One thing I DO want to address here is the issue of going concern. That is when a TO is also participating in the tournament they're helping run. We've never really had any problems with this on the forum in terms of cheating or special treatment (a testament to how amazing this community can be). Sadly, it's also something we can't easily address without a larger active member base. That being said, when a TO has to go for matches - ESPECIALLY in a day format tournament - it slows things down... even if they have a second TO on the floor with them. Two TOs is generally what's acceptable but what happens if they end up fighting each other? Everything comes to a dead halt. I'd like to see this specific issue with TOs be addressed personally. I will say we're working on it, though and it will hopefully bring out the latent talent in our community as a whole.
There's the wall of opinion I promised. Nice bedtime story for you all.
Find me in the IRC and challenge me! I'd love to play against you!
Currently Playing: Work