Do we have a beta tier list for this game yet.

**zeekybookydoog** · 07-28-2012 06:24 PM

Hey, been a while since I posted here or played this game. I'm subscribed to your YT channel because I enjoy watching competitive play. Following the link to the Summer Wars ruleset, the Low Tier challenge caught my eye, and I was wondering if the tier list was made public yet. I searched the forums and Google but was unsuccessful. Thank you.

**Sys-XN** · 07-28-2012 06:26 PM

lol gigyas avatar

There is supposedly one being made already last time I checked, but it's not out yet.

**Khell** · 07-28-2012 06:33 PM

It's currently still being fleshed out. The low tiers challenge is a challenge for those who play those characters, but also a way for us to get more information about characters that few people play.

**zeekybookydoog** · 07-28-2012 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by Khell

It's currently still being fleshed out. The low tiers challenge is a challenge for those who play those characters, but also a way for us to get more information about characters that few people play.

Ah, I see. So it's not as much of a "Low Tier" challenge as it is an "Underused character" challenge. SolidSok playing this tourney? I'd bet on him, his Shanty's a total beast. Interesting that Terra's not a part of that list, though. Hmmm...

As for the Assist Challenge, I expect to see a lot of Cecil, Onion Knight, Gilgamesh, Emperor and Terra. Maybe some Laguna and Cloud, too.

Anyway, keep up the good work. I look forward to seeing more of the tournament in the coming days. I'll see you guys later!

**Khell** · 07-28-2012 07:26 PM

The characters on that list are still considered low tier by many, so it is still a low-tier challenge. Shantotto is the only questionable one on that list of 4. Bartz and Cecil are considered to be very weak among the rest of the cast (Cecil having been tested thoroughly by Hollowed), and Laguna is considered the worst character in the game at the moment. Bartz (along with Laguna) is very underrepresented, but many don't believe he would advance very far up the list, if at all.

**zeekybookydoog** · 07-28-2012 08:19 PM

Just what is it that holds Cecil back? Laguna, Bartz and Shantotto I can understand their positioning, but nothing about Cecil ever really jumped out at me as a liability.

And since Terra isn't in that group, what exactly are her saving graces? Because I always found her difficult to use, even back in the days of DFF when she was top tier.

**Hollowed** · 07-28-2012 11:32 PM

Why the tier list isn't available to the public is mindboggling. I believe the reasoning from Narolf, a DF mod who updates the values on a googledoc, amounted to, "People who don't know how matchups work will complain about values being incorrect, and it will slow down input by having to explain it." Someone please correct me ifI'm wrong. I don't see the problem with people questioning it nor believe it would pose so enormous a problem as to monumentally slow progress. If there's another reason, I haven't heard it. Not that I believe there's a good one for the tier list being witheld.

On the matter of tier list inaccuracies, I'll repeat what Veysey has explained time and time again. Values are always changing until the game is completely dead. There is always a margin of error and intentional wiggle room left. This is especially apparent in Dissidia, a stage choice and counterpick heavy game. Additionally, discoveries and new tech happen and change the way the game is played. Examples in other games are wavedashes and wall jumps. Dissidia Duodecim also has its share. Discoveries are still being made as the meta continues to grow and evolve.

Concerning DF's Duodecim tier list inaccuracies, not every matchup has been explored extremely in depth, but the tiers themselves are distinct enough for minor changes to not cause much fluctuation unless it's major or there are several. To elaborate, the separate tiers consist of a group of characters with nearly the same point value, with less than a 10 point difference between the top and bottom characters. The characters in the tiers above and below have a noticeable point difference dividing the tiers. Because of the obvious divides, the tiers are pretty well established at this time. For a character(s) to shift up or down a tier takes a lot of points, signifying sizeable shift in their metagame. Presently, this could possibly happen for a number of characters, but the tier list would remain largely the same. People could view the list right now and very well not lose their shit.

**Dart** · 07-29-2012 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by Hollowed

Values are always changing until the game is completely dead. There is always a margin of error and intentional wiggle room left.

Thought I would highlight this. Who knows, maybe releasing it will encourage further testing, because progress these last few months has been non existent. Releasing the tier list after Summer Wars is finished sounds like a good move to me.

**LonelyGaruga** · 07-29-2012 12:51 AM

Gonna have to agree with considering the reasoning for not releasing the tier list being...questionable, at best. I haven't really bothered prior, due to having better things to deal with, like actually working on the tier list, but the tier list's progress has become slow, I've been busy with other things and not contributing as much as I'd like, and it's been fleshed out a lot. There's no harm in releasing it soon, I should think.

I think that if the tier list is released, and there are complaints, then they should be taken care of in the form of playing with one of the player's that determined and argued for that matchup value in the first place (I.E. if someone feels a matchup is wrong for a value with Firion, and that the character has a better time against him, I'll handle responding to, and if necessary, playing the person to show my reasoning in practice). This can assist in getting more variety in perspectives in the matchup, despite the distinct possibility of those players not being suitable due to a lack of experience and thus unhelpful, but with that negative possibility comes the positive possibility of finding new things about the matchup, cementing the value even further, and so on. Regardless of the outcome, I think releasing the tier list should be an acceptable course of action.

**Narolf** · 08-03-2012 08:00 PM

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Fd1UnNGeVc0Z2c

Sorry, guys. I owe an explanation to backroom's members, but I can't make it until a few more weeks.

Also, Djqubi, thanks for the PM.