Dissidia 012 Tier List

[SolidSok]

And yet you were still able to put up a fight against UW2K's Ultimecia in one of the matches you did @ LevelUP. Something I thought nigh-impossible! I even wonder if you had EXTENSIVE Ultimecia experience going into that match. If this is not the case who knows what would happen if you drilled that match up some more to find new kinks and tech to beating the bitch.

I did well in one match yes, but keep in mind that Ultima did not have much experience vs shantotto. The same could be said for a lot of people back then. Also, after the tournament, Ultima and I tested that match-up, though we didn't post the results (for reasons i'm not sure of, I wasn't in the back room back then).
The list currently has it as a 7-3 ulti favor, but we both felt it was closer to a 6-4 ulti favor. 6-4 to 4-6 is NOT bad. It's harder to win a 4-6, but not that much harder. 7-3s are when matchup strengths start to become noticeable. 8-2s are nearly impossible, and depend on the person in favor to basically slip up. 9-1s are basically impossible.
Despite that, It's easy to notice the effect Knight's Lance has on the battlefield. The only reason my Shantotto was able to put up a fight was because of stun, and more noticeably bind. Both of which are ranged attacks. Stun wasn't nearly as effective though, because of the large space that Lance covers.

Changing topics for a moment, I understand the thought process of switching to a character with a match-up advantage. If we all did that though, we would see even less representation of characters than we do now (whether that is bad or good is up to you). Keep in mind that changing characters wouldn't be necessary, if Lance wasn't as effective as it is now. That one move is what keeps most of the cast from putting up any kind of fight.

[LonelyGaruga]

OK, before I begin, I'd like to say that I "main half the cast", as many would tell you. I play Warrior of Light, Firion, Cecil, Kain, Golbez, Cloud, Squall, Prishe, and Lightning, used to play Onion Knight, Cloud of Darkness, Bartz, Gilgamesh (in fact, I'm still one of the best Gilgamesh players on the forum and happily pick him back up here and there occasionally), Tifa, and Kuja, dabbled with Yuna a little, and plan to pick up Terra, Sephiroth, Laguna, and Tidus when I get back into the game. I'm reasonably good with all of the characters I play(ed), with Firion being my de facto best and Gilgamesh probably being my second best, despite not playing him for months and having a very outdated grasp on him that hasn't been explored as much as most of the rest of the cast. I've actually done FT10s, challenges, and tournaments purely for the sake of getting better. I'm not a character loyalist. I'm someone concerned with the balance of the game.

So, when I look at your posts, I see someone that wants to play only Ultimecia, wants to have a perfectly acceptable chance of winning with her against every matchup, and wants to win with her. Yeah, I've got a bit of a loyalist streak with Firion, what with all the exploration of the meta, bias toward playing him, and him being my most comfortable to use character, but that does nothing to blind me to the possibility that he's a major contributor to making low tiers unviable. Tifa and Jecht are the only low tiers that can fight him effectively, and I think their numbers can be improved for Firion's favor.

Now, look at Firion's matchup charts. He has 4 bad matchups in the top tiers, with all of them being as bad, if not worse, than Ultimecia's were in DFF. The only high tier he has an advantage against that's more than .5 is against Squall, which is not accurate. Prishe's might not be either. So he only has a single advantage against Sephiroth that can be confirmed, among the high tiers.

So Firion is basically DDFF's equivalent to Ultimecia, you see. Except instead of having one bad matchup among the top tiers, he has three, and at least two of them are even worse.

Does that stop me from trying to improve or make them doable? No. Will you see me play them intentionally in a tournament? No. Will you see me do everything in my power to win if I do have to play one of those matchups? Yes. Even a casual player like me who has played 16 characters has zero compunctions with choosing one and dealing with their bad matchups. You know why? Because I have a real sense of character loyalty. I've figured out a way fight Kuja. I figured out a way to fight Exdeath. The matchups are hard, but that's because of a fundamental flaw of Firion's design when fighting those opponents, just as Ultimecia had a flaw in fighting Squall.

So why does Ultimecia, who is A+ tier and a very viable character, need Knight's Lance, when so many low tiers that don't stand a chance in the competitive field because so many high tiers have stupidly good matchups against them and quash their chances of winning get nothing? She had one really bad matchup. How does that not only create a generalization of her being vulnerable against rush down, but justify giving her equally bad matchups against a huge portion of the cast in the next game, while giving her two new matchups that are 7-3? She still has issues with the top tiers. Charged Knight's Lance does very little to add to her viability against Kuja (You're not getting away~). It does very little to help her fight Gabranth (Haaaaaaaatred) and Lightning (I can fix that!). What it does do is just strengthen her dominance against the low tiers while making a few bad matchups better. Oh, wait, Tidus and Squall are the only bad matchups that are still relevant for her now.

So, what of this? Are you seriously going to tell me that because OAD+ was nerfed, Ultimecia would have a hard time running away, and thus become an unviable character? This is false, and if you honestly believe it, I don't think I can trust your word as an Ultimecia player. She still has stupid matchups. She still would have an 8-2 against Firion, who would still be A tier. She would still have a 7-3 against Exdeath, who is SS tier. She would have more bad matchups in the form of Prishe and maybe Zidane, but she would still have positive odds against high tier characters while still having her own issues, instead of having BS values across the board save for her bad matchups. She wouldn't be the best. She would have problems, like she still does. But, and I don't know if you understand this or not, but, she single handedly makes only three other characters viable if looking for subs to deal with specific bad matchups, she wouldn't have a stupid number of 8-2s and 9-1s, and she wouldn't unbalance the game horribly like she does now. And that's the point. Ultimecia did not need Knight's Lance to be viable. A high tier character does not need a tool that makes all the other low tiers, and even mid tiers like Cloud and Kain, significantly less viable, just to cover a few bad matchups. It's disgusting.

Ultimecia with charged Knight's Lance is nearly banworthy. Ultimecia without it is merely a character with some strong matchups and some bad ones, no different from characters like Firion and the Emperor.

Oh, and two last things:
1) I was never making an argument for Ultimecia to be banned. I was suggesting that it be considered if her matchups improve. As it stands, she's just stupid, not banworthy.
2) Feral has bad matchups, and if you seriously believe otherwise, you need to actually play Feral Chaos-Ultimecia. Either side. And preferably not in Phantom Train/Prima Vista. Feral has a hard time actually approaching a number of characters if he can't just spam Via Dolorosa for an easy win. Brute Force and Splinter are major helps, but he's still going to have issues with Ultimecia, Exdeath, Sephiroth, etc.

[Vamper62]

Sometimes I wish I could stop these arguments. They really aren't getting anywhere... Face the fact that Garuga and Twig dont agree. Neither of you are going to suddenly change your opinions (this is clear), so instead of writing pointless walls of text, lets just end it here and let bygones be bygones.

[ChaosMuramasa]

Sometimes I wish I could stop these arguments. They really aren't getting anywhere... Face the fact that Garuga and Twig dont agree. Neither of you are going to suddenly change your opinions (this is clear), so instead of writing pointless walls of text, lets just end it here and let bygones be bygones.

This is good insight on what could possibly change in the near future. This thread is for discussion about the tier list, which is exactly what they're doing. They're also doing it in a civil and respectable manner. Garuga and Twig come from two very different ends of the spectrum, so seeing them debate this could open the eyes of other players and possibly spark new ideas or topics of discussion for later.

I see no reason to stop it.

[Starwave]

Sometimes I wish I could stop these arguments. They really aren't getting anywhere... Face the fact that Garuga and Twig dont agree. Neither of you are going to suddenly change your opinions (this is clear), so instead of writing pointless walls of text, lets just end it here and let bygones be bygones.

That's absurd. What your suggesting is basically the equivalent of "see no evil. hear no evil." The fact that Garuga and Twig disagree is irrelevant.

Fact: Ultimecia is the best character in the game after FC (who is banned)
Fact: Ultimecia has several lopsided matchups and few "counterpicks"
Fact: Knight's Lance is more or less the reason this is the case.
Fact: Ultimecia's matchup spread is supposedly slightly lower than FC who ended up being straight up banned.

So what are we going to do about it? You're suggesting we let things stay the way they are and let the metagame stagnant (it's already not as popular as it used to be.) My suggestion to have all of the best players convene on IRC or on the forums and discuss the ramifications of banning Ultimecia as a whole (or even just Knight's Lance) would make a difference in the metagame.

[Wicked1one11!!]

Well, I know it sounds like quite a bit of work, but maybe an Ulti player or two should re-test all the MU's, just with no Knight's Lance equipped at all? Then compare the lists accordingly?

EDIT : My personal opinion (Not that it means much :P) is that Knight's Lance should not be banned, because once you start banning one move/character, others can easily be put up for discussion on the cutting board. For instance, I know for a while ExDeath's omniblock was considered cheap as all hell (at least on gamefaqs), so what's to stop people from saying things such as "Well you nerfed Ulti by banning knight's lance, why is omniblock still allowed?"

[END]

Well, I know it sounds like quite a bit of work, but maybe an Ulti player or two should re-test all the MU's, just with no Knight's Lance equipped at all? Then compare the lists accordingly?

EDIT : My personal opinion (Not that it means much :P) is that Knight's Lance should not be banned, because once you start banning one move/character, others can easily be put up for discussion on the cutting board. For instance, I know for a while ExDeath's omniblock was considered cheap as all hell (at least on gamefaqs), so what's to stop people from saying things such as "Well you nerfed Ulti by banning knight's lance, why is omniblock still allowed?"

The difference between KL and Omni Block is that Omni Block has been in the game since DFF and has been Exdeaths main tool since then. If you take that away he becomes so not a threat that it's not even funny. Ulti was able to live without KL in DFF, but they gave her this move anyway.

That's my 2 cents, anyway. I'm ass at this game.

[LonelyGaruga]

Yeah, Omni Block is actually less dominating than charged Knight's Lance. Omni Block is useless against Ultimecia and Kuja, for example, and it's possible to outplay the Exdeath player, while Ultimecia literally just needs to set up charged Knight's Lance, and keep it set up, and she's good to go for a good majority of her matchups. Omni Block requires skill and timing and can be screwed with by delaying attacks and stuff. The tier list is a good indicator of this, Exdeath doesn't 9-1 anyone, and has his own 2-8 in the form of Kuja.

Don't listen to GameFAQs by the way, they think we're a bunch of idiotic elitists, generally speaking. There's a lot of scrubs that populate it, so a lot of opinions there aren't reliable.

[Starwave]

Well, I know it sounds like quite a bit of work, but maybe an Ulti player or two should re-test all the MU's, just with no Knight's Lance equipped at all? Then compare the lists accordingly?

EDIT : My personal opinion (Not that it means much :P) is that Knight's Lance should not be banned, because once you start banning one move/character, others can easily be put up for discussion on the cutting board. For instance, I know for a while ExDeath's omniblock was considered cheap as all hell (at least on gamefaqs), so what's to stop people from saying things such as "Well you nerfed Ulti by banning knight's lance, why is omniblock still allowed?"

As I've mentioned before, the slippery slope argument is incredible weak in this scenario because 1. (It's Dissidia) 2. KL is just so much better than every conceivable move in the game. I know banning moves should be frowned upon but the alternative is to literally ban an entire character,

[Cherub]

so people on the IRC were talking about Ultimecia. After a short time Khell asked me and some others who know Ultimecia pretty well, how our opinion is.
I'll just write down my opinion here.

[02:52] <Cherub> I think the reason for most lopsided matches is that there are really LESS good Ultimecias and most people just dunno how to handle her. ofc Lance is a big help for the witch but RDF can beat me with WoL easily.

Good players often beat me even if I had lance in my set. I won't deny that KL is almost broken. But I do think that there are really annoying ways to beat Ultimecia even with Lance.

[02:52] <Cherub> I think overall most people just lack the experience to play vs her and also don't want to learn how to fight her

Thats one of the main reasons. To learn how to handle a GOOD Ultimecia is so annoying. I, myself who plays Ultimecia since the first second DFF came out, still CAN NOT beat Ultimaweapons Ultimecia.
It really is annoying to find out what to do vs Ultimecia. And most people just don't want to learn because it is really hard and it is understandable. There are many ways around Lance. And I KNOW what I am talking about. I had many fights and saw many ways around the Shield. And I apologize how rude this may sounds now but there are REALLY LESS good Ultimecias out there.
As for banning Lance. Ofc some MU will be easier but some won't change...

[02:53] <Cherub> ofc some MU's won't change. best example is firion-Ulti. some MU will still be one-sided. but many other characters could do so much better vs her

Many Melee's like Zidane Squall Cloud COULD do better vs her. But then again a good Ultimecia knows how to defend herself. Ultimecia can do really good even without Lance. And I am sure that Ultimaweapon could prove this but he is inactive atm and I am sure he is rusty by now. Ultimecias damage output is unbelievable high and a Charged Axe can do up to 500 BRV dmg with a good DMG set. Not to mention criticals.....
And a good Ultimecia will make use of it. I don't say that any MU will NOT change for Ulti w/o Lance, I am pretty sure that some MU's will change but I don't think that Ultimecia is going to be a B tier.

Banning Knights Lance would destroy more or less the used way to play Ultimecia since one weakness is absolutely not covered. I'd be necessary and annoying for an Ultimecia to change the whole set and the way the player was used to play Ultimecia.

I don't want to get KL banned. Neither want I Ultimecia to get banned.
But if I would have to decide then I would want to get Ultimecia as a whole banned. It's not like Lance is ZOMG I NEED IT OR ELSE I AM DEAD. But to change my whole sets and such is pretty annoying and I don't want to bother my self with new tactics for the most characters of the cast.

Just to be honest.... I hope some good players like Dart and Cipher who knows how to handle Ultimecia well will change some MU and make her bad. So people won't complain about her. And IF this truly happens and someone still loses against her and says she is broken .....no you just lack in experience like almost everyone.

I didn't read the whole conversation in this thread but I read something about DFF.....and just thought ....what does DFF Ultimecia have to do with DDFF Ultimecia. This is a tier list about DDFF not DFF.

I am sorry if my text insulted somebody in anyway but Ultimecia takes skill to be played. I see myself as a decent Ultimecia, not even good. And I feel insulted if anybody says she doesn't require skill. It's like saying "You don't have skill, you ain't even good, you just play Ultimecia"

This is so far my opinion, though I miss many points.
If you don't get what I mean then meh I don't care