Stage Tournament Discussion

[Wedge]

Ok well I thought now that a few tournaments have been done/being completed I want to start discussion on stages.

So far the match procedure has been been:
1.Random Stage unless decided by both players
2.Counter Pick
3.Counter Pick

Stages in fighting games are usually banned for these factors:
-Stage in question creates lag
-Stage in question prevents legitmate skill based play (One hit kills)

Some stages that fall into that criteria are:
-Omega Old Chaos Shrine (creates 9999 brv pool)
-Omega Planets Core (Random brv pool + Lag maker)
-Omega Ultimecia's Tower (Random brv pool + Lag maker)
-Omega Dream's End (creates 9999 brv pool)

I believe that these stages shouldn't be allowed. I still need to experiment but those are the most obvious ones that come to mind. All the non-Omega stages are fine because they don't meet that criteria and can be used in counterpicks.

Now here are a few questions:
1. Should we ban some stages in competitive play?

2. If we do, how can we enforce it considering we can't strike stages out of the random button?
(I have a few ideas for that question ^^^)

[Slayer0]

Omega World of Darkness' switching can be used for some moves to hit even after the switch, and the attacker can be in the neutral state. But since it's nigh impossible to pull off normally...well, there really isn't a reason besides the increasing BRV pool while in alternate stages.

[Weiss_Hikari]

Omega Planet's Core can reach 9999 with time as well.

Can't say, haven't played online in awhile/no one's asked me to play online so... I dunno about lag, however, I enjoy all the stages.

[ShineThatLight]

Wedge, the FF7 stage doesn't have a random brave pool, it increases by the millisecond as you spend time after the rocks break and the lifestream comes in. But i see your point.
Also i've never heard of a stage being banned for lag factors, but i guess it makes sense.
Honestly though the stages you listed all serve as amazing counterpicks, such as Omega Chaos Shrine vs OHKO characters, or the Omega lifestream for Ground bias characters. Sure the normal stages can be used well, but not as effective as the Omega ones.

[Wedge]

Wedge, the FF7 stage doesn't have a random brave pool, it increases by the millisecond as you spend time after the rocks break and the lifestream comes in. But i see your point.
Also i've never heard of a stage being banned for lag factors, but i guess it makes sense.
Honestly though the stages you listed all serve as amazing counterpicks, such as Omega Chaos Shrine vs OHKO characters, or the Omega lifestream for Ground bias characters. Sure the normal stages can be used well, but not as effective as the Omega ones.

Well this is why I started a discussion El Shiny. Yeah they serve as amazing Counterpicks, however stages like Omega-OCS promote camping and allow for easy breaks/wins. I'll agree with you that the terrain is great but the gimmick for the BRV pool is unblanced.

[Draec Khin]

I am not too sure about banning stages. The more things are banned the complex and unattractive a tournament becomes. Given that some stages are gimmicky like 9999 brave pool, it is still about skill. It's true that it is gimmicky, but it also creates tension and a new higher level play and forces the player to be more careful. Obviously it would suck to be defeated by one brave to hp link attack, and that does happen.

In terms of stages that do create lag, I think it really makes no difference compared to more serious issues like player's location and connection type.

I think what we need to consider if some stages are truly game breaking v. hating the stage.


Banning any map would, also, make the random function for map picking useless, but I have an interesting proposal:

how about allowing the random map picking for round 1-- even if there is a chance that one of the banned maps might be selected. But for counter picking we don't allow picking of banned maps. So in this case, a banned map can only occur on round 1.

So far there hasn't been enough evidence for me to conclude that the stages are so game breaking -- they require banning like with resins. Maybe we should see how many times these maps were used for counter-picking in tourneys, and if they contributed to unskillful lucky wins, and what characters were involved?

Furthermore another solution exists. Banning stage counter-picking. The issue will be irrelevant, as the players will have no control of deciding a stage. In this case one can get lucky/unlucky-- a gambling aspect in this game.

[Veysey]

In terms of stages that do create lag, I think it really makes no difference compared to more serious issues like player's location and connection type.

You, sir, do not have enough Jecht in your diet.

Planets Core Omega usually kills my HP Linking and Jecht Blocking success. This is with my wife, who sits beside me on the couch. We experience very little/if any lag on other stages like Ultimecias Castle Omega.

My take on it? If you are going to ban some stages for reasons other than lag (which will likely be Omegas), it would make sense to ban all Omega stages. I mean they all have some gimmick to them and it's up to the player to know what they are and work around them.

OCS Omega for example, you know that the brave pool is going to get really big really fast and everyone is going to slowly have their brave sapped. HP linkers have a huge advantage here for sure, but the opponent is likely going to be extra cautious of those linking attacks and HP attacks that deal a little bit of brave damage as well. Characters like Squall who generally rely on clean HP attacks (no extra brave damage, etc) are going to be at a disadvantage. EX Cores and EX Mode become extremely valuable in this stage as well.

My point is that these are all things the player knows and will attempt to capitalize on. It shortens the match and leaves less room for error which is really the only difference. The advantages to some characters and disadvantages to others? Well, you see that already on stages like Planets Core where ground based characters get the shaft. What about Lunar Terrain? The low ceiling is a big disadvantage to some of the cast. With that ideology, a lot of stages end up getting cut because they disadvantage this character or that character. The whole point of counter-picking is to choose a stage that you feel gives you an advantage over your opponent. OCS Omega and Dream's End Omega offer a high risk, high reward game (kinda like Cloud, eh?) and if the player is willing to bear the risk, I say let 'em go for it.

On lag? I'm unsure of my opinion since I'm not too experienced with actual online play. I'd rather have more first hand experience before commenting.


If I were to propose something - it'd be that match 1 is either random from non-omega stages or neutral agreed on stages while the other matches can continue to be counter-pick leaving out any stages that are decided to be unfair in tournament play.

There is also the possibility of a soft ban when it comes to counter-picking some stages. Just throwing it out there.

[Katsu]

I'm pulled towards Ulti's castle being banned. It's more so because of the pitfall at the top of the stage, it can literatly save someone from a KO

[Slayer0]

It can also let linkers continue their attack, as long as part of their attack hits. Dunno about banning it because of that, linkers can miss their attack if something happens due to the stage or a wall gets in the way for some reason.

[Katsu]

I just want to know; has Ulti's Castle done anyone any GOOD?