Grind = Fun?

[gamer_reloaded]

Here's an article I came across yesterday.

This is what I was thinking after I read this:

1. OMG Squenix is EVIL!
2. Wait.... Squenix doesn't get money from me every month.
3. OMG I'm a HAMSTER in the Skinner Box!
4. But I like this Skinner Box, and it doesn't (excessively) keep me from other activities... *acceptance*

Here's the deal: Since Squenix (or any other game developer that makes level-grinders) has no incentive to 'hook' you into a specific game (offline RPGs especially), then is the Skinner Box itself what makes the game fun for the player? Basically every RPG ever made fits the description in the article (minus the subscription part for non MMO's), to varying degrees of extremity--the Disgaea games I think are the most blatant example of this: LEVEL UP EVERYTHING! THEN REINCARNATE AND DO IT AGAIN! THEN LEVEL UP YOUR EQUIPMENT, PIECE BY PIECE! -.- On the other hand there's something like Super Mario RPG, which almost discourages it (Lv 30 cap, anyone?). Granted, the latter is VERY rare compared to the former.

Are we all just willing little rodents rotating our $20-$70 hamster wheels in our spare time? Discuss.

[Suppi]

Autonomy (that is, you have some say in what you do day to day);

Complexity (so it's not mind-numbing repetition);

Connection Between Effort and Reward (i.e. you actually see the awesome results of your hard work).

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I learned what makes most people tick. *oddly enough that article really was well written and in stand point of my 1 year of WoW it did make a lot of sense.*

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Also note the 3 things above is the answer to your question.

"Since Squenix has no incentive to 'hook' you into a specific game; is the Skinner Box itself what makes the game fun for the player?"

It's the fact that the "fun" is actually a sense of achievement from the 3 factors above that basically boils down to a "I am successful." 2nd life format.

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If you truly understood the article. What you stated were just examples of the basis of most MMO's. It had nothing to do with the "fun" of anything. The final longing for it to actually have you hooked and think "Grind = Fun" is when you manage to incorporate "Grind = (three factors above) - Common Sense/Life".

It was a shame I have such a short attention span that I managed to end game WoW and got bored; quitting the game and selling the account for more money then I had payed for it in subscriptions. Truly it was a decent game in the sense of how it pleased the human psyche but it wasn't "fun".

In fact... what is "fun"?

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F is for friends that d---

Yeah I won't do that to you ;3

[gamer_reloaded]

Autonomy (that is, you have some say in what you do day to day);

Complexity (so it's not mind-numbing repetition);

Connection Between Effort and Reward (i.e. you actually see the awesome results of your hard work).

-----

I learned what makes most people tick. *oddly enough that article really was well written and in stand point of my 1 year of WoW it did make a lot of sense.*

-----

Also note the 3 things above is the answer to your question.

"Since Squenix has no incentive to 'hook' you into a specific game; is the Skinner Box itself what makes the game fun for the player?"

It's the fact that the "fun" is actually a sense of achievement from the 3 factors above that basically boils down to a "I am successful." 2nd life format.

-----

If you truly understood the article. What you stated were just examples of the basis of most MMO's. It had nothing to do with the "fun" of anything. The final longing for it to actually have you hooked and think "Grind = Fun" is when you manage to incorporate "Grind = (three factors above) - Common Sense/Life".

It was a shame I have such a short attention span that I managed to end game WoW and got bored; quitting the game and selling the account for more money then I had payed for it in subscriptions. Truly it was a decent game in the sense of how it pleased the human psyche but it wasn't "fun".

In fact... what is "fun"?

-----

F is for friends that d---

Yeah I won't do that to you ;3

... do things together , U is for U and me Quoting Spongebob is OK in my book...

Of course I understood the article; reading about the actual mechanics of it kinda shook me somewhat, especially if you read an article that links from it too (the one where the guy's life is ruined by an Everquest addiction), and I was curious about others' reactions to it--although it makes sense what you say; the key factor here is each individual's tolerence for how long between rewards a player will stand (mine is fairly low for an RPG gamer); hence I WANTED to get into Disgaea, but I thought "there's no way I'm doing all that shit," but with DFF (which drops items for everything but sneezing) is much more fun for me. Highly subjective

[Suppi]

Truly; I like competitive and such. So basically Fighter games are more into my range of liking. Which in WoW all I did was PvP and pwn ass =/ (I was so good I had people asking me on different servers to move over... One of the best healers in PvP arena's with a mediocre partner still killing ass just fine... Now I look back at it... thank god I quit :3 The new nerfs to Holy Paladin would have royally fucked me over down to mid tier in PvP :3)

So yeah. I'm the type that likes competition. Though I'm almost never the best I like to consider mid tier amongst my piers. (though this is only after sufficient practice :3)

I still don't see the "fun" in this really. Life is dull if you think of it broadly. So just enjoy what you do every day and I guess it'll be fine... but that's the basic concept of most addicts so :3

[gamer_reloaded]

Truly; I like competitive and such. So basically Fighter games are more into my range of liking. Which in WoW all I did was PvP and pwn ass =/ (I was so good I had people asking me on different servers to move over... One of the best healers in PvP arena's with a mediocre partner still killing ass just fine... Now I look back at it... thank god I quit :3 The new nerfs to Holy Paladin would have royally fucked me over down to mid tier in PvP :3)

So yeah. I'm the type that likes competition. Though I'm almost never the best I like to consider mid tier amongst my piers. (though this is only after sufficient practice :3)

I still don't see the "fun" in this really. Life is dull if you think of it broadly. So just enjoy what you do every day and I guess it'll be fine... but that's the basic concept of most addicts so :3

Reading this reminded me another reason why I posted this.... you (and the article) mentioned winning (against other people). I take it this is from the Fighting Game aspect of DFF (and from the PvP stuff you were talking about), that the fun part of a competitive game isn't the part where you do stuff by yourself, but using that to improve your skills against other players; ie, the "fun" is put off until you go online. However, for me at least, the grinding itself is fun, in the sense that I feel a satisfied feeling of accomplishment from beating a tough opponent, sometimes by a single hit point, in a highly stylish manner. The fact that I am improving my skills and getting item drops is a bonus (of course I will sometimes grind for the sake of grinding). Therefore, for me the Skinner Box itself is what is fun, and according to you I'm the exception to the rule... until someone else puts in their two cents at least

[Suppi]

You must have a different sense of grinding...

Let me tell you a common day of "grind" for me in WoW.

1. Get on Mount
2. Turn on 20% mounted speed boost aura
3. Run around a small area to aggro 30 or so enemies
4. Run to corner
5. Get off Mount
6. Set up Retribution Aura
7. Set up Consecration
8. Set up any Buffs that have deminished
9. Cast Multiple Shocks
10. Heal whenever low on hp (which is every 2 seconds)
11. Repeat 7-10 (especially heal)
12. Repeat 1-11

Normally rack up 20-30 undead in scholohome or somewhere else. Blast them all with Consecration and heal like shit (I was a holy paladin).