Another Loop/Infinite

[Draec Khin]

I think this is an infinite by definition of an infinite I provided before here: http://dissidiaforums.com/showpost.p...70&postcount=4 and Vyesey here: http://dissidiaforums.com/showpost.p...&postcount=197

Any repeated(1 or more times) sequence of moves in which the opponent cannot escape.

Below is Veysey's version but generalized:

....An infinite ... can be described as a circle or a curved line.... Once the combo hits the second [repeated move], it becomes a clean circle and no one can tell where the combo begins or ends anymore ... making it impossible to determine a starting and ending point on the combo - thus meaning it can be infinity continued (like a circle).

So in this case: Kuja's EX MODE chase is one unit of measurement. One Event. We cannot count individual hits inside the Chase because there is no way of getting out of it unless Kuja gets hit himself. And the tricky part here is hitting Kuja because there are only two choices (HP or Brave Attack) which can be easily avoided.

Anyway here is how it looks like graphically:

Brave Move -> Brave Initiating Chase Sequence -> Chase -> (auto-magic) -> Brave Move -> Initiating Chase Sequence -> Chase

As you can see the sequence repeats or a loop is formed back to Brave Move -> Brave Initiating Chase Sequence -> Chase.

I don't see how we cannot look at the chase mode for ex mode Kuja as escapade unless the Kuja player messes up. The ending of a sequence is dependent on Kuja messing up the dodge. That is what makes this an infinite. If this was the case where the player could do something to escape -- without dependency on Kuja's input after a Brave or HP attack -- that would be different. But as we know the ending of the sequence is dependent on Kuja messing up-- thus making it an infinite.

[Nexus_Nocturnal]

However, in a heavy lag situation, it become easy to dodge the attack coming out of chase. Especially the Energy Bursts Poke was using at the beginning of the match.

In fact, I believe I tried using this loop on Eva in a tournament and they managed to escape out of it as Cloud.

EDIT

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te3nCrj4RJs&feature=related"]YouTube- 'Ninja's Playground' tournament Finale - Nexus vs Advent_EVA - Match Three[/ame]

Eva manages to escape both the Energy Burst and Auto Magic on a few occasions. Perhaps RDF just wasn't dodging fast enough?

[Advent-EVA]

However, in a heavy lag situation, it become easy to dodge the attack coming out of chase. Especially the Energy Bursts Poke was using at the beginning of the match.

In fact, I believe I tried using this loop on Eva in a tournament and they managed to escape out of it as Cloud.

EDIT

YouTube- 'Ninja's Playground' tournament Finale - Nexus vs Advent_EVA - Match Three

Eva manages to escape both the Energy Burst and Auto Magic on a few occasions. Perhaps RDF just wasn't dodging fast enough?

The actual thing happens at 2:22, I had actually forgotten how I dodged out of Flare Star ; every time I look at it, I can't help but think I'll most inevitably get hit. Although this clips shows that you could have kept me in a loop ; had you used a Brave attack instead, even if I did dodge the Auto Magics and Flare Star, I was completely at your mercy for yet another Brave attack.

[Jirachi]

From my observations it is highly possible to escape Kuja's Auto-Magic by using your last dodge to end up on a different vertical heigh as Kuja (preferably on top). If Kuja uses his last dodge, he usually ends up just a bit too far to catch an opponent before he dodges. At first I thought I was just making mistakes, but this seems to be pretty constant, so I now believe it's escapable. However the same tactic against Kuja's Auto-Magic chase tricks aren't applicable when both players are pinned to the ceiling in which case there's no way to place yourself on a different vertical plane. That and his wall rush combos are why I consider Pandaemonium and Kefka's Tower his best stages. I do agree that Auto-Magic to Chase looping should be considered an infinite when done more than once, but should doing so under a circumstance in which a knowledgeable opponent should be able to escape be considered an infinite as well?

[Nexus_Nocturnal]

If you can dodge behind Kuja, depending on what abilities and character you are using, it is in the realm of possibility to get far enough behind him that the Auto Magic doesn't hit, and by letting yourself drop, you can lower yourself away before Kuja has time to turn around.

[Kraid]

I'm sorry but I want to talk about the heavy lag issue for a moment here.

Playing Kujas in the past (Paru for example) and playing against him I've never been able to escape the auto-magic chase sequence. It just seems blind luck for everyone else who's gotten out of it because I cannot.

[Nexus_Nocturnal]

The actual thing happens at 2:22, I had actually forgotten how I dodged out of Flare Star ; every time I look at it, I can't help but think I'll most inevitably get hit. Although this clips shows that you could have kept me in a loop ; had you used a Brave attack instead, even if I did dodge the Auto Magics and Flare Star, I was completely at your mercy for yet another Brave attack.

Yes, but at that time you had already managed to escape, proving it possible to do so. I believed you could have blocked an incoming BRV attack, which is why I used Flare Star, as I too thought you would have got hit also xD. However, there was some slight hesitation on my part when I was picking between brave or HP attack and it was that small amount of time that let you dodge. At least that is how I saw it.

[Jirachi]

Shouldn't dodging out of Auto-Magic be tested a little bit more, because I'm almost certain that it's really possible if you have good reactions.

[Nexus_Nocturnal]

It is possible, Eva just did it in the Video >.>

That's why I say Kuja's best stages are Kefka's Tower and Pandemonium. All the corners make it so you start a Chase literally on top of the person, so when the chase ends, the Auto Magic spawns right on the enemy.

[Spyder]

Once again, I suggest going through the same sort of testing as was done with the WoL's wallrush combo. Get an extreme smooth lag environment where all frames can be exploited to the best possible ability and see what we get.

Jirachi was one of the testers to demonstrate that it is indeed a loop, yet now by observation he believes otherwise. This, I think, calls for another set of testing. Is it possible to dodge out of Kuja's auto-magic given all the circumstances Jirachi has mentioned.

Also, Nexus. Judging by the vid, Advent got nicked by your auto-magic right after dodge. I, too, think that if you did a brave attack, it would've linked. Observe carefully. After chase, Advent dodges out of your auto-magic and immediately get nicked after his invincible frames were gone. It just so happened not to link into Flare Star. A brave attack would most likely have done the job.

EDIT: Actually just saw the instance around 2:00. Seemed like two dodges was enough to escape it. It's like Jirachi said, by moving during your last dodge has put you too far away to hit with auto-magic.