Kain Matchup Discussion

[Ghurdrich]

AS A NOTE: All of these matchups are based on my knowledge from the previous game, as well as my experience with Prologus. They are all subject to extreme change at any time, and are meant to be points for discussion and general guidelines, rather than hard-and-fast battle strategies. I will also give my predictions for what the actual matchup for Kain vs this character will be. This is also subject to change. A ** beside my prediction means that I pretty much just guessed, and this will be solidified when I can fight a human being.

Without further ado, let's get this ball rolling.

[Ghurdrich]

WoL: This guy's become just a bit more of a bitch since DFF. Shield of Light and Shining Wave got a pretty big buff, and even with his new moves, his moveset is still pretty much incredibly balanced and powerful. In the air, he's gonna end up playing exactly like you do. He's got his moves to use depending on your vertical positioning, and you have the same. If you choose to fight him in the air, it's gonna be a long and arduous battle of trying to maneuver into a more advantageous position, while he's trying to do the same. You havre the advantage of T-Dash, but he has his new and improved Shield of Light, so you've got to be careful. If you want to try to fight him on the ground, you're going to have a hard time of it. His grounded moves are fast and hit hard, and his new HP attack is pretty decent. At this point I would have to say that it's probably best to take to the skies, unless you can make real good use of Jump.
My prediction: 5:5 Even

Garland: Remember how I said that WoL will play basically the same game as you? Welcome to the other side of that coin. Garland plays just like you. Slow but powerful BRV attacks, Mid-speed but fairly reliable (and powerful) HP attacks. Good range, excellent power, and a pretty badass EX ability. You're both going to have to be very careful with each other, since you're both easily blocked and punished, and it doesn't matter whether you're in the air or on the ground, either. However, when it comes down to it, I would say that you're better off in the air, just because of Kain's innate abilities. Use your speed to your advantage, and don't stay too close to him for too long, because Round Edge will hurt you. A lot. Despite the fact that I said to fight in the air, your most reliable HP in this matchup is going to be Jump, because of his longer recovery, and the fact that none of his attacks hit above his head.
My prediction: 5:5 Even

Firion: Welcome to the new Firion. There's only two very important things to remember in this match. The first is that you will completely trump him in the air, even with his improved magic and improved Weaponsmaster. The second thing to remember is that he will likewise completely trump you on the ground. Lord of Arms (I think) even trumps Jump, since it hits from above. So then the problem becomes, how do we get Firion in the air, and how do we keep him there? Well, it's pretty simple. Your best friend is going to be Spiral Blow, if you can use it. Use T-Dash as much as you can so that he doesn't have time to land back on the ground, because if he does, the process starts all over again. Once he's in the air, his only real threat will be Weaponsmaster, and all you need to do is fall/jump to get outside its vertical range, and resume your attack.
**My Prediction: 5:5 Even or 6:4 Kain

Emperor: Emperor is nothing special, even with his new traps. To be honest, I need to test it more, but I'm pretty sure Jump will totally nullify almost anything he can do. Since your attacks have magic deflection, his mines aren't anything even close to a threat. Flares are a joke (since Kain's HP game is so reliable) and getting close to him isn't a problem with T-dash. I have yet to really see any way that Emperor could put up much of a fight against Kain, but I suppose PvP will tell for sure. For now, I can only say based on the AI.
**My Prediction: 6.5:3.5 Kain

[Ghurdrich]

Onion Knight: The knight of Onions is back, with one hell of a vengeance. Remember how we used to laugh at his physical attacks for being blockable on reaction? Well, it's not so funny anymore, and the joke is on us. However, Kain has a fairly reliable solution to this newfound problem: He doesn't need to be in range of OK's physicals. Because it doesn't matter how far you can lunge into your attack, a big man with a spear can still poke you out of it. Essentially, stay at mid-range as much as possible. OK's magic can still hit you, but your attacks deflect magic. Well, I make it sound easy, but this is not actually going to be an easy strategy to employ against a human. After all, you're pretty easy to block and punish, which is what OK is good at. So just try to stay at max range and keep poking away at him when you can. As for HP, the only HP attack that you should be using is Jump. Everything else is too slow, and too easy to punish.
My Prediction: 5:5 Even or 5.5:4.5 Onion Knight

Cloud of Darkness: With buffed moves and a slew of new BRV possibilities, CoD should be a pretty big thread, right? Well, the Prologus AI displays no great capacity to play CoD well. I can't really even begin to comment on this matchup, to be honest. Maybe a CoD player could help me out, but I'm stuck on this one.
**My Prediction: ???

Cecil: Time to face our rival. There isn't too much to say about this matchup, really. You both have slow attacks, you both have roughly the same attack range, you both have HP attacks which are somewhat hard to land. And you both have a new fairly reliable HP (Shadowbringer and Jump.) If this matchup isn't 5:5, I don't know what is. Just stick to your preferred strategy and duke it out to the best of your ability.
My prediction: 5:5 Even

Golbez: I don't have much vs Golbez experience, so please someone else chip in here. As far as I can tell, Golbez is like Kain, but faster and with HP links. However, despite this, I haven't had a whole lot of trouble with him. If you stay at mid range, he can't hit you with too many of his scariest attacks reliably, and as long as you stay in the air, he has even less scary attacks. Basically just use the same strategy you always would.
**My prediction: 5.5:4.5 Kain

Bartz: Not too much new here either. He has some shiny new attacks, but really, they're still all pretty predictable. His new HP attacks are a little scarier than his old ones (Ragnarok Blade and Hellfire, most notably) but if you can keep your head, they're nothing special. You'll definitely want to be in the air as much as you can for this one, since his aerial attacks are all much slower than his ground ones, and most of them are highly punishable. Holy is dashable, and your BRV attacks have magic deflection properties. His new Slide Shooter is even less frightening than his old Slidehazzard, which was already very predictable/blockable/punishable. Just play it cool in the air, and use the tools you're given (T-dash is a godsend, since you want to be close to him.)
My Prediction: 5:5 Even or 5:4 Kain

Exdeath: This is one that is difficult to comment on. Prologus AI Exdeath is terrible. However, the one thing I can say is that you're REALLY going to have to watch out for this guy. After all, your attacks are pretty slow (definitely OB-able on reaction) so it's gonna come down to mind games. You can hit him our of RP quite easily, I'd recommend Celestial Shooter for that, just for speed's sake. Aside from that, try to make good use of your attack range, and try to avoid using your slower attacks (AKA Use Celestial Shooter. Try to avoid Thrust Rush.) Also try to use Jump effectively, since it's quick and you can DC out of it for mindgames.
**My predition: 6:4 Exdeath

Gilgamesh: CANNOT COMMENT

[Ghurdrich]

Terra: Ladies and gentlemen, meet the new and improved Terra. You're probably thinking "There's no way they buffed such an obviously top tier character, right?" But I say to you "Oh yes they did." They gave Fire an HP link Tornado has more absorb, and since everything is faster, she's just overall more difficult to deal with. however, for Kain, it's not impossible. His BRV attacks have magic deflection, so Blizzard isn't a problem. The biggest threats in this fight are Blizzard Combo and Tornado. It's difficult for Kain to get away from Tornado, because if you're in the middle of an attack, your recovery takes a while. Crash Dive and Celestial Shooter won't do the trick either, since Tornado's vertical range is quite good. The best approach is to stay at the furthest tip of your range, and try to punish her where you can, or sneak some of your faster attacks in where you can. Don't stay in one spot, don't leave yourself open, and don't let yourself get into a corner. You have the tools you need to deal with her if you're careful, but if you're careless, you're going to get iced. Or fired. Or winded.
**My Prediction 6:4 Terra or 6.5:3.5 Terra

Kefka: This one is hard to comment on as well, since the AI only spams Scatter-shot Blizzaga and Havoc Wing, but it's already quite apparent that this will be one hell of a fight. Kefka's new buffs are pretty impressive. Havoc Wing's vertical tracking is such that it followed me up into a jump and hit me at my peak. Not to mention it can hit you on wakeup from the floor/wall. Basically, Havoc wing covers your entire optimal range, unless you've got good reflexes and aren't recovering. Blizzaga serves the same purpose. It stops right where you want to be standing, and staggers anything you do. However, this has one notable exception: Jump. Since Kefka is terribly slow, almost all of his spells can be punished with Jump. That's all I can really say at this point, since Kefka plays totally different in a human's hands as compared to the AI.
**My Prediction: 6:4 Kefka

Cloud: Cloud is one of the few characters whose buffs shouldn't affect Kain. Increased absorption doesn't mean anything if you're hovering at mid range, increased speed doesn't make him much harder to block and punish. The only buff you need to worry about is Aerial Double Cut, which takes a good portion of his (pretty decent) ground game, and makes it viable in the air, too. Still, as long as you can hold Cloud in the air, this matchup shouldn't give you all that much trouble. Not a whole lot to say here. Use the same strategy you would against anyone else.
My Prediction: 6:4 Kain

Sephiroth: Difficult to say, since I've always had a difficult time with Sephiroth regardless of whose hands he's in (even the AI.) From what I can see, you should be able to use the same strategy as always, as long as you're careful. His attacks make excellent punishers against a careless Kain (Scintilla stuffs your BRV attacks, and most of his BRV attacks will stuff your HPs if you're not careful.) Take it slow and try to stay at mid range. While Sephiroth is also a mid-range character, your vertical range trumps his by quite a bit, so try to make good ue of Celestial Shooter and Sky Grinder.
My Prediction: 5:5 Even

Tifa: Obviously this is someone who I don't have all that much experience with, but I'm adding her in since I have fought her. Her attacks don't seem all that scary, and her feints (like Tidus' dodges) really only serve to make her attacks easier to block. But most of all, She's a little girl with boxing gloves, and you are a big guy in armor with a spear. Just smack her around a bit from mid range. Yeah she's quick, but it isn't impossible to block her on reaction, especially if she feints. The audio cue is all you need.
**My prediction: 5.5:4.5 Kain

[Ghurdrich]

Squall: This guy seems to be the same as ever, and that means that all the same tricks you used to use will still work on him. What's the best trick? Simple. Take a stroll. Whether in the air or on the ground, Squall's biggest issue is being able to land attacks. He likes to hit you on your recovery, but you like to hit him on his. Remember the old waiting game? Well, it's back with a vengeance. But you have something Squall doesn't. The ability to position yourself (and him) wherever you want. You can stay in Squall's blind spot (about two character lengths away, just out of range of Beat Fang) all you like, and that also happens to be your perfect attack range. So just stick to your guns, and don't be too aggressive. You have to think tactical, and control the battlefield, and it should be an easy victory.
My prediction: 6:4 Kain

Ultimecia: This is gonna give you some trouble. Knight Spear is fast as hell, and you're gonna have a hard time doing much about it. If you let up on your pressure to avoid Knight Spear, you're going to suffer the wrath of everything else she can throw at you. But if you keep up your pressure, you're victim to Knight Spear, which will knock you even further away, and give her even more time to punish you. Watch out for her new Knight Axe, which will follow you to hell and back. The best option is to reflect them back at her, since she'll have to stop what she's doing (and what she's doing is hurting you) in order to block them. Play it cool, and try to stay in Celestial Shooter or Crash Dive range, but watch out for... well, everything. You're going to need to get creative with a hit and run strategy unless you want an Apocalypse or Knight Spear to the face. There aren't really any good HP attacks for this matchup, unfortunately, so you're going to have an awfully hard time landing actual damage (and the longer you go without landing HP damage, the more your BRV is being whittled away by her pointy things.)
My Prediction: 6:4 Ultimecia or 6.5:3.5 Ultimecia

Laguna: CANNOT COMMENT

Zidane: It's hard to say without fighting a human, but Zidane might not actually give you all that much trouble, to be honest. It's not all that hard to stay out of his range, and you both want to be in the air. As long as you're quick on your feet and can be quick about poking him and getting out of there, you shouldn't have that much trouble.
Warning: This may change drastically once I can get online and several Zidanes completely stomp me, but we'll see.
**My Prediction: 5:5 Even or 6:4 Kain

Kuja: This guy is a real asshole now. Especially for Kain. He just won't go where we want him to go, which nullifies our greatest asset. Moreover, he can hit us from wherever we go, at least for the most part. So how do we make this guy fight on our terms? Well, vertical distance is going to be our ally here. Kuja can hit you from almost any range, so horizontal distance is out, but he does have a blind spot, which is, more or less, where you would want to be to land Celestial Shooter/Crash Dive. The trick is staying there, and not getting predictable. After all, it's pretty obvious what you're going to try to do if you're on a 45 degree angle below his feet, right? So it's going to rely on mindgames and some decent mixup. Remember, your HP attacks aren't terrible, so it's not out of the question to throw a Dragon's Fang or two in there, just to throw him off a little. Do this with extreme caution, though, as he can just float out of the way if he's expecting it, and punish you with very little effort. Attacks to watch out for are Flare Star and Seraphic Star, since they hit hard, hit fast, and hit right where you want to be. Basically, It's not going to be easy, but it's also not going to be impossible to fight Kuja.
**My prediction: 6:4 Kuja

[Ghurdrich]

Tidus: As with Squall, this match should play out the same as it did in DFF. 90% of Tidus' attacks have a dead giveaway in their dodge startup. That means that it's as simple as block and punish. Same as ever. However, this also presents the same problem you used to have: Tidus' mixup with Hop Step. And it's because all of his other attacks have that big startup that this move is so deadly. Because you're trying to wait and punish his moves on reaction, hop step will catch you off guard more times than you want it to. And if you go to block hop step, but he does another move, he'll hit you right in your guard recovery. There's no real counter for this mixup except to take preventative measures. Try to stay at mid range (He'll very likely chase you to be right in your face most of the time) and use the launch properties on your brave attacks liberally. Also be very careful how you use your T-dash. After all, one wrong dash, and you're right in his face where he wants you to be. It's best to take this fight carefully and from mid range. Tidus can punish your attacks better than you can punish his, so don't get careless. Finally, remember your secret weapon: Jump. If he's right in your face spamming Hop step, a simple jump should catch him pretty easily, but it gets predictable fairly quickly, so again, don't get careless. It's not an infalliable strategy.
My prediction: 5:5 Even or 5.5:4.5 Tidus

Jecht: Despite his shiny new Jecht Beam, This guy pretty much plays the same as always. Which means the strategy is the same as ever. It sounds simple and obvious, but there isn't much more to it: Hit him. Do not let him hit you. The best way to accomplish this feat is from your favorite spot - Mid range. Max range for any of your attacks will do, but Celestial Shooter range will serve you best (since it's not easy for Jecht to hit something under his feet.) Beware the almighty Jecht Block, since it will toss aside anything you can do, except for (I'm pretty sure) Dragon Fang and Gungnir, which it will clash with. Beware Jecht Beam, and beware if he's right in your face. When you launch him away, it's probably best to angle your T-Dash downwards to get in Celestial Shooter range. Other than that, this is a pretty straightforward fight.
My Prediction: 5:5 even or 5.5:4.5 Jecht

Yuna: CANNOT COMMENT

Shantotto: With her higher priority and her guard-crushing new BRV attacks, you'd think that this Tarutaru poses a very real threat now. And she does... but not to Kain. She's still very punishable, and Jump will have her scared of using her HP attacks. Watch out for Stun, and be careful of how you choose to get rid of Bio. Deflecting it with your BRV attacks is usually preferable, but that leaves an opening for her to punish you. And regardless of how punishable her HP attacks are still, they're still bigger and badder, with higher priority and decent range, so you still need to be careful (at least in the air.) I would try to keep this fight Air to Ground, if you can. Your best bet for an HP hit is Jump, though Gungnir is not out of the question.
My Prediction: 6:5 Kain or 5.5:4.5 Kain

Prishe: CANNOT COMMENT

Vaan: CANNOT COMMENT

Gabranth: This matchup was very hard for me to comment on, since AI Gabranth is a complete idiot (He kept trying to rush me down instead of EX charging, and when I let him get EX, he just ran away.) So I'm going to leave this open to someone more experienced with Gabranth. I'll append it as we get discussion going. One thing I will say is that the battlefield control that Kain is so proud of is... totally useless against this guy. Your attack range is the same as his attack range, but Gabranth has the advantage of having a much wider attack range than you do. Not to mention all of his attacks send you away, same as yours. That's all I've got for now.
**My Prediction: 5.5:4.5 Gabranth or 5.5:4.5 Kain (Hard to tell, but not even)


Lightning: Being a new character, it's hard for me to say exactly where she'll end up. Not to mention the fact that she can shift Paradigms to suit the flow of battle. Stick to the same strategy as ever and try to hit her as hard as possible when she shifts to Ravager, because that will be where you can put the most pressure on her. That's all I can really say until she's in the hands of a human.
**My Prediction: 6:4 Kain or 5:5 Even

[Ghurdrich]

**Reserved in case I make some serious expansions**

[Ghurdrich]

**Reserved in case I make some serious expansions**

And that's that, folks. Discuss away.

[absolclaw]

I love you Ghurditch <3 But you forgot the section for Cid Rai- *brick'd*

If I am to speculate seriously; from that one Vaan gameplay video I've seen, it seems his HP attacks don't have a great range, but okay tracking. So maybe Kain could have the upperhand against him? I'm a noob with these kinds of things though, so don't take my word for it :O

[Amphoric]

Nice AI matchup thread! waiting on the real game + real human match up discussions