Dream Realised - Firion's weaknesses covered?

[SeraphicFeather100]

I haven't been able to play 012 recently, thanks to the charger breaking, so I never got a chance to use Firion yet. I've been watching the new tournament videos & have to say that I'm quite impressed/worried. Firion was the ultimate ground fighter in the first game & that hadn't changed much, at least, it didn't look like it. However, his lack of decency in magick attacks seems to have been sorted. After watching his gameplay, I've come to realise just how dangerous some of his new Magicks have become.

...Am I correct? How much more/less dangerous is Firion in 012 compared to its predecessor?

[Kayarine]

His spells? They got buffed, but they're still not really good for offensive purposes. Fire's speed got increased, which in turn makes it worse at handling turns. That causes it to often crash into the ground or go around the opponent when I think it's going to hit.
Blizzard and Thunder are easily dashed through, or hell, even walked by. But Thunder is nice for interrupting certain moves. Blizzard can work as a mid-range punisher.
I don't remember much about his spells in DFF since I barely used them aside from Fire, so I can't tell you how much better they are.

As for his ground attacks, in my opinion they're more for being defensive due to the loss of unblockable Rope Knife. Swordslash is no longer cancelable by just walking, so it isn't as spammable anymore, but it still works great for getting people away from him. Rope Knife got nerfed quite a bit and is easily blockable on reaction because of the sound cue, but it's still good at punishing with its speed and the fact it has some vertical tracking makes it even better for that. The lance followup even on whiff does a great job at covering him instead of leaving him completely open.

Straightarrow's speed and priority buff makes it great for punishing things from afar and forcing dodges (which can be taken advantage of with assists). Lord of Arms can work nicely as an anti-air if people insist in staying a little above him, and it also works well as a mid-range pressure tool (especially with assists). It doesn't work very well as a close-range mixup with Swordslash however, as it's fairly easy to dodge and punish at such range.

TL;DR: Firion improved, yes, but he's more of a wall this time around so it can be pretty hard to approach him. Trying to be offensive with him is just hard now, so if the opponent's character is difficult to punish or has a very good offensive game (like Prishe at close-range), he's going to have a hard time. At least that's my opinion so far.

[SeraphicFeather100]

His spells? They got buffed, but they're still not really good for offensive purposes. Fire's speed got increased, which in turn makes it worse at handling turns. That causes it to often crash into the ground or go around the opponent when I think it's going to hit.
Blizzard and Thunder are easily dashed through, or hell, even walked by. But Thunder is nice for interrupting certain moves. Blizzard can work as a mid-range punisher.
I don't remember much about his spells in DFF since I barely used them aside from Fire, so I can't tell you how much better they are.

As for his ground attacks, in my opinion they're more for being defensive due to the loss of unblockable Rope Knife. Swordslash is no longer cancelable by just walking, so it isn't as spammable anymore, but it still works great for getting people away from him. Rope Knife got nerfed quite a bit and is easily blockable on reaction because of the sound cue, but it's still good at punishing with its speed and the fact it has some vertical tracking makes it even better for that. The lance followup even on whiff does a great job at covering him instead of leaving him completely open.

Straightarrow's speed and priority buff makes it great for punishing things from afar and forcing dodges (which can be taken advantage of with assists). Lord of Arms can work nicely as an anti-air if people insist in staying a little above him, and it also works well as a mid-range pressure tool (especially with assists). It doesn't work very well as a close-range mixup with Swordslash however, as it's fairly easy to dodge and punish at such range.

TL;DR: Firion improved, yes, but he's more of a wall this time around so it can be pretty hard to approach him. Trying to be offensive with him is just hard now, so if the opponent's character is difficult to punish or has a very good offensive game (like Prishe at close-range), he's going to have a hard time. At least that's my opinion so far.

Yeah, his spells were pretty atrocious in the first game. I put him away in favour of Cloud seeing as he had some better air game, but Firion seems like he'll be more fun to use again.

To be fair, Sword Slash doesn't need cancelling that much. Its a pretty darn fast move anyways, but I guess its the prospect. I was dissapointed when I heard he lost the guard staggering Rope Knife. That was by far his most effective BRV attack, but at least the others have been upped a little.

So, he's a wall now, meant for keeping the foes away from him so he can HP attack heavily from the ground where hes most effective. Is that the gist from your view?

[Ghurdrich]

Well, IMO, Rope knife is not as good, and it's not necessary to have three fires, but the new thunder is VERY nice for interruption purposes. I basically just spam it against someone who thinks they can camp out at long range, or behind a wall. I can easily punish most moves that require the opponent to pretty much stand still. Mix that up with his variable combos, and his shiny new HP attack, I'd say Firion is better, in the end. He's certainly harder to fight, as he covered most of his weaknesses.

[Kayarine]

So, he's a wall now, meant for keeping the foes away from him so he can HP attack heavily from the ground where hes most effective. Is that the gist from your view?

Pretty much, yeah. The "tl;dr" part is my thoughts summed up. Although I can't tell if he is harder to fight now (I only play as him, not against him), people might just not be used to his changes yet so they don't know how to approach. I guess it also depends if the character being used falls into any of the types I mentioned (those who can cover their openings like Tidus and Tifa with double dodges and those who strong offense like Prishe), but then again that's most likely just matchup specific junk.

[Grade-Zero]

Based on me playing, he seems tougher to fight against. Rope Knife, while losing guard stagger, actually doesn't seem that nerfed now that I've played with it some. Some characters can't punish it even if they block if it's used at max range due to the increased range such as Emperor. His air game doesn't seem completely worthless now that he can fast cast spells and the fact that Straightarrow is now a great mind game tool even though it lost that infinite range. Lord of Arms seems like an attack he really needed as well, not only for surprising enemies but the fact that he finally as a melee high priority attack on the ground. He still has his problems, but he feels better.

[SeraphicFeather100]

Pretty much, yeah. The "tl;dr" part is my thoughts summed up. Although I can't tell if he is harder to fight now (I only play as him, not against him), people might just not be used to his changes yet so they don't know how to approach. I guess it also depends if the character being used falls into any of the types I mentioned (those who can cover their openings like Tidus and Tifa with double dodges and those who strong offense like Prishe), but then again that's most likely just matchup specific junk.

I guess so, but as time goes on, Firion players will undoubtedly start learning to deal specifically with these characters, so I don't think thats TOO much of a worry.

I've seen some Firion players already keeping these characters at bay (namely with large use of Thunder & Rope Knife combos.

---------- Post added at 01:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:27 AM ----------

Based on me playing, he seems tougher to fight against. Rope Knife, while losing guard stagger, actually doesn't seem that nerfed now that I've played with it some. Some characters can't punish it even if they block if it's used at max range due to the increased range such as Emperor. His air game doesn't seem completely worthless now that he can fast cast spells and the fact that Straightarrow is now a great mind game tool even though it lost that infinite range. Lord of Arms seems like an attack he really needed as well, not only for surprising enemies but the fact that he finally as a melee high priority attack on the ground. He still has his problems, but he feels better.

His airgame doesn't seem as useless anymore, this is true, however, it's still not amount to much at all. Maybe some evasions & such, along with a round of magicks to put quick pressure on the foe, however, if you aren't trying to get an accurate HP attack in through Straightarrow, or throwing your opponent away from you with Weaponmaster, his airgame doesn't have much use at all. However, as ever, Swordslash proves forever useful, or would, if it didn't suffer the same fate as Cecil's Shadowbringer, with such a tiny range.

---------- Post added at 01:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:32 AM ----------

Well, IMO, Rope knife is not as good, and it's not necessary to have three fires, but the new thunder is VERY nice for interruption purposes. I basically just spam it against someone who thinks they can camp out at long range, or behind a wall. I can easily punish most moves that require the opponent to pretty much stand still. Mix that up with his variable combos, and his shiny new HP attack, I'd say Firion is better, in the end. He's certainly harder to fight, as he covered most of his weaknesses.

Well, I've seen very clearly that his new Thunder is incredibly potent at its job.

[Neo Bahamut]

One thing that's really annoying is that you can now miss with Double Trouble. If you're overzealous with hitting the square button, the brave attack will end before the character even gets to you, so you'll completely miss with the HP attack. I've only seen this happen with Rope Knife, though.

[LonelyGaruga]

Well, that's something that can be solved with timing. Yeah, it's stupid, but there's no reason to be "overzealous with hitting the square button". I used to be, but I adapted pretty quickly. Now, as for the topic...

I think Firion is improved. The buffs Rope Knife gained outweigh the loss of melee mid priority, Straightarrow being unblockable is a major "SE fixing obvious things", Lord of Arms is quite useful as an anti-air attack, as well as other uses, his spells are nothing but improved, even if they aren't particularly useful (Thunder seems like it is pretty good though), etc. Firion still has his issues though, like with Kuja matchups, but I think Firion is better in this game. He definitely jumped a tier I expect, at the very least.

[Astri]

As someone who doesn't play Firion much but used to steamroller him in DFF days, Firion now actually takes effort to play against. Granted, my friend who mains him has gotten better at the game, too, but the buff to Thunder and judicious use of Lord of Arms alone has made him a much greater threat (at least to me). I definitely think the character has gotten better, not just my friend.

EDIT: I forgot the other enormous important change-for-the-better: Ground Dash. Ground Dashing has made ALL ground-based characters so much more viable than they used to be.