Just got a quick break so I'll try and keep these replies short and then go in detail when I'm done for the night.
Cloud of Darkness
I recently retested this one all over again. And honestly the ground is the best way to go against CoD, you just got to be a bit brave about it. Satalite Laser can interrupt all her HP attacks (Except Wrath) with the right timing. Grenade Bomb also links into Satalite Laser if you catch her in lag. It's really a game of patience since when aerial all of Lagunas attacks are easy to dash away from. I agree CoD is the one who's going to be pacing this fight, but Laguna is going to be the one punishing mistakes and dealing the most damage at the end. Laguna however is subject to heavy assist punishment, even with E.Shield. Ground Kuja ignores the shield which already makes Lagunas lag a bit less safer than usual, and aerial CoD can draw you out with her thunder. Laguna can build up his assist fast for sure, but he's not going to land his assists much compared to CoD due to his lack of reliable links.
I agree melee approach is the best option for Kefka, but you're really relying on assists this full match. If we count assist depletion here, moment an offscreen WWF catches you you're about to lose a big chunk of it. Kefka can also build assist well with TTB and is unpunishable during it. During that he'll also have WWF out which makes your assist camping limited compared to his and if he has good luck he's going to get a good WWF chain going and end this fight fast. A good Kefka wouldnt let Laguna get close to him, a great Kefka would make sure Laguna is locked down.
I'll have to disagree with you here. ExDeath is going to build assist REALLY fast in this matchup. Once he has 2 bars he can just use TG. TG shuts down Pummel which is Lagunas fastest and safest attack. A well timed assist will shutdown Shotgun (It needs to be exact, but this move is punishable). HP attacks also can be punished by purposely taking the hit but summoning the assist just before to break Laguna. If anything I'd say Homing Bazooka is one of Lagunas best tools at point blank, since you can aim it away from him to force some early blocks, but like almost everything in Laguna's toolbox, this is punishable. And like mentioned by Corde, RP is going to be an annoyance for Laguna. If Laguna managed to lockout his assist, then ExDeath can just RP around without any care in the world. Also if you get too agressive then you're prone to be hit by RP as well. Laguna is basicly shutdown when ExDeath has his gauges, and can't do anything when he doesnt.
---------- Post added at 11:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 PM ----------
I can see this one leaning to a 5-5 actually, but I thought I'd bring up some points here. Grounded indeed you can Machine Gun any Jumps, but Kain can just adapt to that and keep poking with Dragon's Fang. At which point it's a stalemate and if you want any progress it'll have to go Aerial. As for Lagunas lag, being directly inside an Aerial E.Shield will shutdown most assists, including Kuja. Only ones you'd have to worry about are Squall, WoL (Ignores your shield) and Sephiroth (Same as WoL). It comes down to a Laguna mistake is just much more costly than a Kain mistake.
Another one I can agree with, though I see Homing Bazooka being of more use than Sticky here. I can't really add much more to this except Laguna can also punish most of Gabranths HP attacks by OAD+ing under Gabranth and using Ragnarok Blade. It's better than just letting him get all his HP back through regen.
Laguna can dash up and Pummel away for sure, but again you're hoping your opponent isnt good with his Scintilla. He won't likely just be throwing it out randomly (If he is then it's a bad Sephiroth). Building assist is good and all, but Sephiroth is going to be landing a lot of HP attacks and depleting what you have. Laguna on the otherhand isnt going to be landing anything on Seph without an assist. Satalite Laser and Split Laser get ignored by Hell's Gate, Ragna Blade won't hit unless the Sephiroth is really dodge happy (And it's also assist punishable) and Sephiroth isnt going to be close enough to Ragna Buster. Add ontop of that Laguna's below average speed and how Sephiroth can keep his distance easier. It's no stretch to see why this one is a pain for Laguna.
You can dash through Heavenly Strike and Impulse aye, but it's much easier to just hide behind your shield and watch her offensive options crumble. Aerial E.Shield forces her to come to you, but that's also a problem. Lagunas lag is easily punishable by all of Yuna's HP attacks, Laguna is going to be resorting to spammable attacks and hoping Diamond Dust doesn't connect or she uses Mega Flare when he needs to dodge out of lag. We can also add the same theory of assists into this, it's much easier to assist punish Laguna than it is to assist punish Yuna. I don't see this one being even, but it's not hopeless by any stretch since Laguna does have the tools for this matchup.
Dashing in head first is the best way to do damage, but it's the best way to be killed as well. You can't get too used to Sticky and Shotgun due to Remote Flare, and Laguna won't get in Kujas face very fast. With RF mostly shutting down your ranged attempts, Kuja is going to be predicting your Pummels and chipping away at you. On the ground you're at least safe from most of his BRV attacks, but you won't be doing anything either. You really need to take risks to touch Kuja as Laguna, but even with the risks theres next to no chance you'll get in there against a smart Kuja.
On the surface yeah, this one is a Laguna advantage, but a good Cloud can shut down almost all of Lagunas attacks. Rising Fang will cover Cloud being Ricochet punished and he can get in your face fast with double cut. Mostly Cloud will be approaching from the air and dropping down when he's in your face. Doublecut is going to interrupt any shield attempts when he's on you, and sonic break will punish any lag you have. Cloud just needs to keep on Lagunas heels, using Rising Fang to cover his dodges, and using Double Cut to build EX + Assist while keeping Laguna under his thumb. Once he's in EX then Laguna can't do much, and chances are Cloud is going to be hoarding a lot of BRV at all times. He just needs to land one Ex attack to take a huge chunk of your HP. Laguna can't get too reckless either since his shield won't cover him from assists if Cloud is close.
This is not worthy of such a one sided match up. I sub Laguna, and the trick with Kefka is to trash his WWF's with constant ragnarok blades. The WWF lag is ridiculously and most kefkas will be tons more cautious. The trick is to get in close
Also, for the record, Ragnarok Blade is Assist Punishable.
[5:10:27 PM] X-Zone: WHY ARE THERE NO RESULTS FOR GOLBEZ DUBSTEP
Credit to Ian (Sean1616) for this lovely avatar and sig. <3
I guess you're right, but still, constant pressure with electro shield, split laser, and the bazooka move does seem to put the clown on edge. Sorry about my obvious inexperience :3
If Necessity is the mother of Invention, the father is Boredom.
Klaws of Persona
So I have only been using Laguna for a couple weeks now, but there is one match-up on the tier I disagree with for Laguna, and that is The Emperor. I feel like Laguna wins that at 6-4, not 5-5
I know it is minor, but I really love Laguna and I want to take him to B tier, so every point counts.
You have to provide reasons with online experience to back it up to change the tier list. Just saying a value with nothing behind it is just character bias and the tier list would be nowhere near accurate.
Last edited by Seraph Sephiroth; 02-26-2013 at 12:54 AM.
my love, moka.
Originally Posted by Dart
Well of course, I know that it is nothing but bias if I just state a score, and tomorrow I planned on typing up an explanation, I was just wondering if anyone else felt the same way.
Last edited by MGSPhantom; 02-26-2013 at 12:45 AM. Reason: Silly Engrish
I'm not sure if 6-4 is accurate. To me Laguna feels like he's at a slight disadvantage, mostly due to what feels like a lack of mobility and drop in Electroshield's usefulness to me (though that could just be a get better issue), but I'm rather curious to hear your reasoning as to why he's at an advantage.
Mains: Squall, Gabranth
Subs: Vaan, Laguna, Warrior of Light
Learning: Ultimecia, Lightning
I do agree that Laguna isn't as disadvantaged as some might think, because there is really no reason for him to even get close to Emp in the first place - Homing Bazooka, Ragnarok Blade and Split Laser all easily hit well out of Dreary Cell/Flare range, and puncture Starfall's magic block. Even Satellite Laser works because of its infinite vertical range, forcing Emp to focus more on dodging Laguna's attacks rather than the other way around - Emp doesn't have anything that really threatens Laguna outside of Thunder Crest/Starfall on stages like Orphan's Cradle. I don't think it's a cakewalk since Emp builds assist well and Laguna is generally assist-weak, but I do feel it should be in his favour, even slightly.
I wil grant this is by and large theory crafting, but this is just my point of view - should any more experienced players from either side of the matchup have anything to contribute, that should be just as helpful.