[Match up Discussion] Firion

[Neo Bahamut]

I don't quite understand the "Tornado through Shield Bash" thing.

[LonelyGaruga]

Though what if Terra is out of ange for SA to be of use then what?

Obviously, SA is faster and has significantly greater range than Meltdown.

Better yet, getting assist punished for using SA.

The only issue would be assist punishment, and if Terra has a bar of assist you should be aiming to assist punish Meltdown instead

The "points" you've brought up have already been covered.

I don't quite understand the "Tornado through Shield Bash" thing.

As a melee high priority attack, Tornado can reflect ranged high priority attacks. As such, if Terra has enough distance to start up a Tornado in response to Shield Bash, then she can deflect the SB projectiles, which will home in on Firion.

[Madoka Titus]

Damn, Terra's pathetic ass is getting kicked around by Firion. It's like he's got a counter for everything she can throw at him except deflected SB. Is there some kind of assist combo that can come from that? If the deflected SB can link to Kuja or Sephiroth AST (wall rush assists are kinda useless considering the distance you use Tornado) then that could probably turn things around.

[ChaosMuramasa]

Damn, Terra's pathetic ass is getting kicked around by Firion. It's like he's got a counter for everything she can throw at him except deflected SB. Is there some kind of assist combo that can come from that? If the deflected SB can link to Kuja or Sephiroth AST (wall rush assists are kinda useless considering the distance you use Tornado) then that could probably turn things around.

Yes, you can call an Assist when the Fire or Ice hits (usually Ice because he'll try to dodge Fire only to be dodge punished by the Ice bullet) but the window of time is pretty short.

[Kayarine]

Mod note:
I moved the posts that were talking about how Shield Bash works to the general discussion thread. Please don't post if you're not talking about something related to a matchup. If you'd like to know how something in general works, look around the stickies relevant to the character in question or ask in the general thread.

Sorry for being so strict, but I'd like to keep the thread clean so discussion is easier to find. It's only one thread to talk about 30 characters, after all. ...Yes, I know the thread isn't even very active in the first place, leave me alone. D:

[ChaosMuramasa]

Uploaded a quick notation of something I noticed.



No idea if this is old news or has any type of effect on the Tidus matchup in general, but Energy Rain is unaffected by the absorb of Lance follow-up.

Sorry if this is old news. this thread needed to be revived anyway lol

[Loreweaver]

It makes me sad. Firion seemed to get such a huge buff, and all we keep discovering is that everybody has new advantages over him xD

[LonelyGaruga]

Well. It has been six months since the last update. There's been a lot of discussion in the backroom regarding Firion, mostly due to me so I feel partially responsible for this dearth of activity. In order to make up for it, here's what I've got so far.

Firion vs Cloud: Estimating to be 5.5-4.5 in Firion's favor. I'll cover all of the specifics at a later date, along with the Squall matchup (which I estimate to be 6-4), as those are the two matchups against Firion that have been most extensively discussed and thus have the most to write about.

Firion vs Tifa: Estimating to be 5-5. The matchup essentially comes down to Tifa's ability to land Rolling Blaze, and Firion's ability to bait and punish it. Every other move Tifa has is punishable or easy to avoid. Every move Firion has save for Swordslash is punishable or leaves him extremely vulnerable to Rolling Blaze. I really would write more about this matchup, but there isn't much to add about it.

Firion vs Kuja: Estimating to be 2.5-7.5 in Kuja's favor, currently being discussed. Strategies have been considered that may make the matchup more even. Essentially, the tactic to be tested is hardcore camping, using a combination of EX core camping, BRV boost on dodge, and assist punishment in order to land hits. EX is for BRV regen and to clear Kuja's assist gauge in order to assist punish an attack. The assist in question will need to be something that can punish most of Kuja's repertoire.

Firion vs Tidus: Estimated to be between 5-5 and 5.5-4.5. I recently wrote a summary of the matchup, so I'll just quote that.

To begin with, Tidus' high dash speed makes EX Core camping a very viable tactic. It is difficult for a Firion player to hit a Tidus player that simply Core camps (mostly if they quickmove constantly to avoid all of Firion's pressure options), and he can only really just wait in one of the spawn locations and hope that it spawns there, or at least spawns close enough to that location that he can beat the Tidus player to it. Once Tidus has EX, it isn't particularly difficult to punish any of Firion's moves with Hop Step, save for Swordslash in most scenarios, assist combo, and Burst. Considering the amount of damage a Tidus at full health can do with his EX Burst, this is rather dangerous.

Hop Step can be used in the air safely away from punishment to maintain assist, and has a low enough cooldown that from most distances Tidus can dash to punish any of Firion's Magic Arts moves, which means that Firion has to stay put on the ground if he wants to avoid being punished. This is unlike Beat Fang due to the longer cooldown on it and Squall's slower dash speed. Hop Step also generates a high amount of EX that exacerbates the EX Core issue.

Tidus cannot be dodge punished by Firion if he uses Stick & Move. Lord of Arms is a major factor in many other matchups due to its excellent dodge punishment and anti-air capabilities, but Tidus not only has the ability to dodge it effortlessly, but also counter it with either Stick & Move, Energy Rain, or Jecht Shot. Energy Rain also has the ability to easily bait and punish a lance followup after Lance Combo/Rope Knife/Reel Axe. During Energy Rain, Tidus is unhindered by the absorb effect of the lance followup, which means that Firion cannot rely on it, or he risks eating an HP that, like Hop Step, generates a large amount of EX.

Tidus is also good at dodge punishing against Firion with Slice & Dice, which, again, generates massive amounts of EX. Slice & Dice has a much better range and is more difficult to punish compared to moves like Aerial Circle and Braver, and has that odd glitch with Rope Knife where Rope Knife refuses to track Tidus and stays on the ground. The only reliable option Firion has for punishing Slice & Dice is Swordslash and Lance Combo. Due to the movement involved in the startup, Slice & Dice is also capable of punishing Rope Knife and acting as a pseudo-dodge move. Of course, this specific scenario just shows that Tidus is more capable of punishing mistakes than many characters, since a Firion player should avoid situations like these described.

Lastly, Sphere Shot, while not particularly dangerous, provides Tidus with a safe ground game that is difficult for Firion to punish. There is very little Firion can do to punish Sphere Shot if it is used outside of Rope Knife range, and Sphere Shot's range exceeds Rope Knife's somewhat. Firion is lacking in any other tools to deal with it, so Tidus has what amounts to a nigh unpunishable move against a character whose primary playstyle is to punish.

While Tidus does have some issues, like Hop Step and nearly all of his HP moves being punishable on a whiff (pretty sure the only move Firion can punish a max range Jecht Shot with is air Swordslash, which isn't very hard to do), his ability to cover his dodges so exceptionally well provides him all of the tools that he needs to avoid being punished, and provide him with the tools to punish Firion's attempts to punish him quite well. I'll reiterate that I think it is 5-5, possibly 5.5-4.5 in Firion's favor due to Swordslash making Firion one of the safest characters in the game, but overall I consider this matchup to be extremely even.

Firion vs Vaan: Estimating to be 5.5-4.5 in Firion's favor. Vaan's large array of mid and high priority attacks and ability to cover his dodges makes him rather difficult to punish, but they aren't particularly hard to dodge. Switch Katana in particular is probably Vaan's most dangerous offensive tool, as it cannot be punished by Rope Knife and serves as an excellent dodge punisher. Normally, a move like that would place the user in a position to risk dodge punishment, but Vaan has Rifle for that. Switch Rifle is capable of covering Vaan's dodges and punishing Lord of Arms. Lord of Arms' hitbox will occasionally clash with Rifle's projectiles, however, depending on when Vaan uses Rifle, but there's no doubt that it makes Lord of Arms pretty useless in this matchup. Switch Axe & Shield, like Katana, pretty much can't be punished by Rope Knife if Firion is forced to dodge and punishes whiffed lance followups very easily. However, if Vaan whiffs switch Axe & Shield he will get punished for it. Cataclysm is in a similar situation, Firion can punish it on startup, but if it forces a dodge than Firion will not be able to punish it. This is untested, but Lance Combo should be able to punish Katana if it whiffs. Uncertain on Axe & Shield, however. In the air, Firion can dodge punish Vaan with Weaponsmaster and Straightarrow, as Rifle cannot escape Weaponsmaster's enlarged hitbox toward the end of the funnel, and Straightarrow obviously just requires a delay. Like with Jecht, the Firion player should absolutely try everything he can to avoid getting forced airborne, as Vaan's numerous dodge punishing moves like Katana, Greatsword, Inferno, and so on give him quite an edge against Firion in the air. Speaking of Greatsword, while it makes for a great move in most matchups, it's probably Vaan's most punishable guard staggering move against Firion, as even if it forces a dodge Firion can punish it with Rope Knife.

Essentially, Firion's goal against Vaan is to avoid having to dodge Vaan's attacks if he wants to punish them. Vaan has a variety of safe moves as long as he can force Firion to dodge them, but there are still situations where he can be punished even then.

I'll finish updating later, as I do want to present an opportunity for others ask questions and the like.

[LonelyGaruga]

Continuing with my update...this post will cover the Yuna, and Squall matchups, while my next post will cover Cloud.

Like with the Tidus matchup in the prior post, I will simply quote myself on Yuna. The matchup is estimated to be 5.5-4.5 in Firion's favor at the moment.

Aerospark can be blocked near the maximum range, which is a little longer than Rope Knife's max distance. Anywhere closer, and it staggers. Aerospark's cooldown is such that if it whiffs, it can't be punished outside of Swordslash range. So Yuna has a safe move on the ground.

Similarly, Heavenly Strike, being a ranged priority low move, is safe if blocked. Firion can only punish if Yuna is within Swordslash range. Heavenly Strike also gives Yuna a very easy to build assist move, so she can safely build assist in the air very quickly.

Energy Ray serves as mostly a long range move that can dodge punish relatively effectively. Energy Ray's range is ridiculous, and can serve to reflect Fire, but should be capable of punishing Shield Bash quite nicely, should Yuna have 2 bars.

Diamond Dust serves as a dodge punisher and a rather dangerous HP move, though it's very punishable on a whiff.

Mega Flare is probably the biggest factor in the matchup, overall. It punishes dodges and acts very similar to Rolling Blaze in that if Firion is doing anything at all while in Mega Flare range, he's going to get hit unless he does an overhead dodge, if possible, and even then that's assist punishable. Yuna builds assist significantly faster than Firion due to Heavenly Strike's cooldown, so she can force these scenarios, making assist building tricky. Mega Flare is only dangerous on the ground, however, as in the air it's an easy to dodge attack that can be punished by any of Firion's moves, including Weaponsmaster. Straightarrow, of course, would be the move of choice, to either hit Yuna or bait an assist and shoot it.

Meteor Strike, Sonic Wings, Energy Blast, and Impulse are all basically useless and should not be considered. Hellfire gets similar treatment, serving very little practical purpose, as does Thor's Hammer, as Firion is rarely vulnerable to punishment by the move.

On Firion's side of things, Yuna can be dodge punished easily. He has to be careful with Shield Bash to avoid getting the melee counter baited by Heavenly Strike. Yuna's EX generation capabilities are superior to his own, so the Firion player should make getting Cores, playing safe, and maybe put an emphasis on EX depletion on his build. To avoid the hassle of dealing with Heavenly Strike, it is probably best to use a mixture of air and ground oriented combat, as dashing around seems to be a very effective counter to the move. Sonic Wings gets blocked pretty easily, Impulse isn't worth mentioning, and Yuna's HP moves are easily countered, aside from maybe Diamond Dust due to the cooldown. Of course, Firion leaves himself very vulnerable whenever he attacks in the air. It's only a place to be for moving. Firion's gameplan on the ground is typically just to punish and all that. Heavenly Strike, while difficult to punish, is still punishable on a whiff, and Yuna can't really accomplish much to a grounded Firion. Baiting Shield Bash won't be happening often, and Swordslash beats out Heavenly Strike in the first place in most, if not all, scenarios.

That's my current stand on the matchup. Again, 5.5-4.5 in Firion's is my current estimate.

Now for Squall...currently estimating to be 6-4.

Squall is well known for being a ground oriented character. His air game, while solid, is obviously geared towrad the ground. However, despite his excellent ground game, it is inferior to Firion's. Firion excels at punishing, and Squall has a difficult time dealing with a cautious Firion player.

Solid Barrel doesn't have enough range to be an offensive tool and can be punished on a whiff. Fusillade and Blizzard Barret are quite unhelpful for the matchup as well. Upper Blues is almost in the same position as Solid Barrel, but can be useful if Firion is ever within its range due to its speed. Thunder Barret is Squall's safest ground BRV against Firion, but it's still unsafe when close to Firion, as Rope Knife can punish the startup, and it's also possible to Shield Bash it.

Beat Fang is of some threat, but it isn't too much of a hindrance. It's primary use against Firion is punishing moves. It, in conjunction with Heel Crush, form the core of Squall's BRV game against Firion: wake up mindgames. If Squall lands a ground wall rush, he has the advantage. Beat Fang, Heel Crush, and Aerial Circle are all options to be wary of, Aerial Circle posing the greatest threat but also being the easiest to deal with. Swordslash clashes with Beat Fang and beats Aerial Circle, but gets staggered by Heel Crush. Lord of Arms loses to all of them, so don't bother with that. Shield Bash beats Beat Fang, but loses to Heel Crush and Aerial Circle. A dodge avoids Beat Fang, but can be punished by Heel Crush and Aerial Circle, but depending on how Squall times it Firion can punish Aerial Circle (but not Heel Crush).

That said, Heel Crush is very punishable outside of these wake up games. Fire Barret, the typical tool of choice after a wall rush from a significant height, is absolutely useless in that scenario, as Firion can just Shield Bash it. Fire Barret, however, can be used to bait Shield Bash and punish with Rough Divide if he's within that move's range, or Revolver Drive if he's near the ground. Mystic Flurry is useless against Firion and should not even be considered.

As for Squall's HP game, the only notable HP move not mentioned yet is Blasting Zone. It's an infamous dodge punisher, but with the typical strategy I recommend it isn't common to be within Blasting Zone range in the first place, and even then it's just a matter of being smart with your dodges. That being said, it's still very noteworthy that it's a very safe move outside of Rope Knife range, and on very small stages where dodging it can be difficult, it's probably Squall's most important tool in the matchup.

Moving on to Firion's side of things, he should fight Squall much like Yuna. Move in the air a lot, use Fire and stuff for field presence and to space, move back on the ground when you're ready to attack, etc. Lord of Arms is even more important against Squall, since his air game is where most of his offense comes from. Similarly, Squall is more punishable due to lacking a move with a cooldown as low as Heavenly Strike or a move as threatening as Mega Flare. These factors are what bring the matchup to 6-4.

[LonelyGaruga]

Now for Cloud. This one is also estimated to be 6-4 at the moment, but it's fluctuated a lot between 5-5, 5.5-4.5 in Firion's favor, and the current number.

Cloud, like Squall, is a ground oriented character. Unlike Squall, he's much safer due to Double Cut and has a bit more variety to the priorities of his attacks. However, he lacks the wake up games that Squall has, making up for that loss with a more difficult to deal with ground game.

Double Cut, as mentioned, is a very safe move. I specifically requested that frame data be checked to see how punishable it is for Firion. Results found there is a 6f gap between the moment Double Cut starts and when Cloud can cancel the move for Firion to punish with Rope Knife. As such, 1/10th of a second means it's still punishable within Rope Knife range. Practicing that makes the matchup much more bearable than it would be otherwise.

Moving on from that, Climhazzard and Sonic Break are pretty negligible, seeing how Firion can cover his ground dodges. Fira is just a bad idea as well, and Blade Beam would only be useful at point blank range and isn't useful even then at close range. That leaves Fire and Firaga.

Fire serves a similar purpose to Firion's Fire. It places an additional hitbox on the field that can be difficult to keep track of at times with frequent dashing around. Cloud can punish baited Shield Bashes from Fire if he's close enough, but it would be foolish to Shield Bash Fire in the first place. Firaga is a much more directly useful attack, due to its ranged mid priority. It acts as a very good spacing tool that serves as quite an obstacle, being relatively difficult to punish and forcing Firion to stay a distance away from Cloud. However, like Squall's Thunder Barret and so many other moves, it can be punished on startup by Rope Knife. If used at enough of a distance, Firion can also just jump over it or dash around it, getting close enough to deter continued Firaga use, lest Cloud be punished.

Moving on to his air game. It may as well not exist outside of camping and aerial combat. It serves absolutely no way to benefit Cloud's offense that his ground game does not already accomplish when fighting Firion on the ground, excluding his HP moves and possibly Aerial Fang/Slashing Blow, and even then Aerial Fang's only use would be to punish a whiffed Lord of Arms, and if Cloud isn't in range to land Aerial Fang then he eats the second half of the attack. Slashing Blow is mostly just to punish incorrectly used Lord of Arms. Being in the air increases the danger Lord of Arms poses as well, so it isn't recommended to be there for long periods of time.

As mentioned, Cloud's best use for the air is to camp. Cloud's hitboxes make him good at covering his dodges from Thunder, as Double Cut and particularly Rising Fang outprioritize Thunder and have wide enough hitboxes to make this an easy use of the moves, but he remains vulnerable to Straightarrow punishes if he doesn't have assist. Cloud should also be wary of EX Cores, as while his dash speed is superior to Firion's, he's still placing himself at a disadvantage in terms of distance by camping in the air.

In terms of his HP game, Cloud can dodge punish almost as well as Squall can with Cross-Slash, but Cross-Slash is very easy to punish, unlike Blasting Zone. Meteorain is typically unsafe unless Cloud has assist, but if he does, it's pretty difficult to punish at or near max range. Reel Axe can do it, but from my experience I'm fairly sure that Meteorain outranges Reel Axe. Last to consider is Braver, being a less punishable dodge punisher than Cross-Slash, but often puts Cloud at the perfect spot for Lord of Arms' vertical hitbox to hit him during the cooldown.

And, once again, my recommended strategy with Firion is similar to the ones for Yuna and Squall, but ground combat is far more important against Cloud than it is the other two, due to Cloud's significantly more dangerous air game, in no small part due to Slashing Blow. The increased difficulty in punishing Cloud's ground moves compared to Squall and other characters means that it becomes even more important to play cautiously and safe, as Cloud has a variety of methods to punish mistakes.

EDIT: For the record, at this moment, it is currently estimated that Firion has only three bad matchups. Those are Exdeath, Ultimecia, and Kuja. This, combined with a few neutral matchups, means that Firion is at an advantage against nearly every cast member. This is balanced a little by the fact that Firion, as a ground character, has a bit of a fluctuation in performance depending on the stage. What may be a good matchup on one stage for him might very well be terrible in another. Likewise, Firion is actually at an advantage against Ultimecia and Kuja in stages like the Phantom Train and Edge of Madness, but this generally has a negative impact on Firion's performance. I've done only limited testing for a lot of matchups on stages that Firion has issues on, but so far I haven't noticed any significant difficulties.