[Match up Discussion] Firion

[Dart]

Nice stuff garuga. Cloud should most definitely run Double Cut, Firaga, and Fire in this MU. Meteorain is a very important tool when fighting a turtling Firion. I would be more than happy to run some fights with you on this one.

[LonelyGaruga]

Mmmkay. I've gone through it with Zelphyr, Shin, and Chaos in pretty fine detail, and they all have their own playstyles, though I can't say I was nearly as good as I am now with Firion when I played Shin. Anyway, yeah, that sounds like fun.

[LonelyGaruga]

Updating the Firion vs Tidus matchup. After some discussion with Kaya, we came to the conclusion that Firion vs Tidus may be in Tidus' favor due to his access to Yuna assist (can assist combo even when the opponent has 2 bars), which Firion cannot combo off of effectively, and his ability to EX Core camp incredibly safely, as Hop Step and Full Slide protect Tidus from Thunder dodge punishes. These factors, combined with Tidus' ability to double dodge, have resulted in us considering the matchup to be another rare matchup where Firion is disadvantaged, but there's enough uncertainty about it that a concrete number isn't going to be put out yet. For now, we've put 4.5-5.5 as a tentative value, but it can go either way really. Needs more testing for now.

EDIT: Putting it as 4-6 in Tidus' favor for now.

[LonelyGaruga]

Now that the tier list has been posted to the public, here is a quick list of the matchups currently on it, along with any deviations that I consider to be possibilities. This isn't taking into account stages in particular, if it was, Ultimecia would definitely be at least 5-5 on Phantom Train, for example.

Firion-Warrior of Light: 5-5~5.5-4.5
Firion-Garland: 7-3
Firion-Firion: 5-5
Firion-Emperor: 4.5-5.5~6-4
Firion-Onion Knight: 5-5~6-4
Firion-Cloud of Darkness: 7-3
Firion-Cecil: 7-3
Firion-Kain: 6-4
Firion-Golbez: 5.5-4.5
Firion-Bartz: 7.5-2.5~8-2
Firion-Gilgamesh: 6.5-3.5~7-3
Firion-Exdeath: 3.5-6.5~2-8
Firion-Terra: 6.5-3.5~7-3
Firion-Kefka: 5-5~5.5-4.5
Firion-Cloud: 6-4
Firion-Tifa: 5-5~6-4 (Only putting 5-5 as a value because that's the current one, I believe it's 5.5-4.5, I just haven't tested the strategy I have in mind that would make it this value just yet)
Firion-Sephiroth: 5.5-4.5
Firion-Squall: 5-5~6-4
Firion-Laguna: 7-3~8-2
Firion-Ultimecia: 3.5-6.5~2-8
Firion-Zidane: 5-5~5.5-4.5
Firion-Kuja: 2.5-7.5~3.5-6.5
Firion-Tidus: 4-6~5-5
Firion-Yuna: 5.5-4.5~6-4
Firion-Jecht: 5-5~5.5-4.5
Firion-Shantotto: 5-5~6-4
Firion-Prishe: 4.5-5.5~5.5-4.5
Firion-Vaan: 5.5-4.5~6-4
Firion-Gabranth: 6-4
Firion-Lightning: 4.5-5.5~5.5-4.5

If anyone has any questions, feel free to ask me.

[Star_Fiend]

So bad matchup with Ulti? I think Firion have some options anyway
Thunder spam to Assist, for example. I used to play vs nice Firion, and I wouldn't say it's so easy to get him

[LonelyGaruga]

Thunder doesn't even touch her when she's using Arrows, so it isn't a viable option. Too easy to dodge.

[Star_Fiend]

Can thunder be blocked by charged Great Attractor, btw?

[LonelyGaruga]

I don't know. I honestly see no reason for Great Attractor to be used when Ultimecia has charged Knight's Axe, charged Knight's Arrows, and Apocalypse to use instead.

[LonelyGaruga]

After a few matches with Dart, we've come to the conclusion that Firion-Cloud is 6-4. I've covered nearly every aspect of the matchup in the past, so I'm just going to leave it as a minor update.

[Star_Fiend]

Which of matchups would be worst for Firion?